Apex Legends New Timed Event Takes Monetization To A Whole New Level

maximumzero · Aug 14, 2019

I love the viewpoint of "It's free, what do you expect?"

Okay well let me pay the usual MSRP of a videogame then, the usual $50/$60, and not have to deal with any of this microtransaction/loot box bullshit ever again, y'know, like you did in the old days of videogames where you paid one price and got access to all the content within.

"But then they won't make as much money."

And there you go, you've hit the nail on the head. Publishers don't want to make $50 or $60 from their customers anymore, they want to make $100, $150, or more from their customers, with some of the fringe customers bringing in ten times that.

And that folks, is pretty pretty scummy.

Trisc · Aug 14, 2019

maximumzero said:
I love the viewpoint of "It's free, what do you expect?"

Okay well let me pay the usual MSRP of a videogame then, the usual $50/$60, and not have to deal with any of this microtransaction/loot box bullshit ever again, y'know, like you did in the old days of videogames where you paid one price and got access to all the content within.

"But then they won't make as much money."

And there you go, you've hit the nail on the head. Publishers don't want to make $50 or $60 from their customers anymore, they want to make $100, $150, or more from their customers, with some of the fringe customers bringing in ten times that.

And that folks, is pretty pretty scummy.

And then there's the fact that this is plainly manipulative of the most susceptible players. By making this a timed event and locking a guaranteed unlock of an extremely desirable item behind it (which whales know is extremely unlikely to drop outside of the event), Respawn very effectively abuses FOMO, or "fear of missing out", which is the same predatory method other games like Fortnite and R6 Siege abuse in order to get customers to spend obscene amounts of cash (justifying it by saying "it's just cosmetic"). It's abusing those with addictive personalities and getting them to shell out a lot of money at once.

It's the same shit that got me to quit Fortnite. And yet, this is so much worse than any monetization model Fortnite's used (yet). But here's the thing: R6 Siege has been doing this since early 2018, and while they got a lot of flak for it initially, the complaints died down, even though it continues to crop up during events. This is what Siege does, but so much more expensive, and so much more manipulative (paying for the ability to pay for a $35 item).

Pyke Presco · Aug 14, 2019

I want to give Respawn money for this game, but there's just no point. I did my $10 for the first set of coins to get the first battle pass (which rolled enough coins for season two and I'm on track to repeat for season 3 as well), but that's probably all they'll get from me. I'm sure I'll lose interest once I have another new shooter get its claws in me.

I would have gladly paid $60 to just have loot boxes show up every level instead of the legend coins, or some "old school" level based unlocks with weapon challenges for the skins. Remember Call of Duty 4, where you could just prestige and continue the unlock game? On PC I used to delete my save file every time I hit max so I could grind all over and keep unlocking shit. That was definitely the precursor to this; people just love filling bars and unlocking stuff. At least back then it didn't cost extra money.

That's not to say the f2p loot boxes can't get their claws in me. For magic the gathering arena, wizards has fleeced quite a significant chunk of change from me since last September. Still way cheaper than playing the actual card game though.

RumHam · Aug 14, 2019

Wamb0wneD said:
Read the thread.

I've read it. Even if they charged a million dollars and the only way to get it was by buying random loot boxes where you had a 1 / infinte chance of getting it, I still wouldn't understand.
There's nothing about this that changes the game. it's purely cosmetic. It's a luxury item in the purest sense.

Edit: It sounds like impulse control is the real issue here.

Wamb0wneD · Aug 14, 2019

RumHam said:
I've read it. Even if they charged a million dollars and the only way to get it was by buying random loot boxes where you had a 1 / infinte chance of getting it, I still wouldn't understand.
There's nothing about this that changes the game. it's purely cosmetic. It's a luxury item in the purest sense.

Edit: It sounds like impulse control is the real issue here.

Gambling addiction is called like that because it's an addiction. "impulse control" sounds like it's just some weak willed people that need to get their bootstraps on. Systems designed to exploit people with an addiction problem and trying to get as many children as possible on that crap are just really fucking shitty and should be called out at every opportunity instead of handwaving them.

RumHam · Aug 14, 2019

Wamb0wneD said:
Gambling addiction is called like that because it's an addiction. "impulse control" sounds like it's just some weak willed people that need to get their bootstraps on. Systems designed to exploit people with an addiction problem and trying to get as many children as possible on that crap are just really fucking shitty and should be called out at every opportunity instead of handwaving them.

I disagree. The onus for children here falls on their parents. The onus for adults falls on themselves. By your logic we shouldn't allow people to purchase alcohol or go to casinos or do anything that may lead to an addiction (GET OFF THE INTERNET RIGHT NOW). Or alternatively we can let adults be adults.
Would it be nice if you could get this stuff easier / by paying a reasonable amount for it directly? If you don't like the prices / practices / simply don't engage in them.
If there was characters / weapons / mods / perks / stages anything like that in those loot boxes I would whole-heartedly agree with you. But there isn't.

DOT_mjo · Aug 14, 2019

Nothing like preying on those gambling addictions, amirite?

The Teachinator · Aug 14, 2019

RumHam said:
I disagree. The onus for children here falls on their parents. The onus for adults falls on themselves. By your logic we shouldn't allow people to purchase alcohol or go to casinos or do anything that may lead to an addiction (GET OFF THE INTERNET RIGHT NOW). Or alternatively we can let adults be adults.
Would it be nice if you could get this stuff easier / by paying a reasonable amount for it directly? If you don't like the prices / practices / simply don't engage in them.
If there was characters / weapons / mods / perks / stages anything like that in those loot boxes I would whole-heartedly agree with you. But there isn't.

What are you even arguing? Do you not think people should be complaining about the pricing structure?
Additionally, addiction isn't something you can just "control" it's addiction because it's out of control. The system is truly designed to exploit mental illness.

thonerayman · Aug 14, 2019

DOT_mjo said:
Nothing like preying on those gambling addictions, amirite?

And other addictions, it's honestly disgusting.

Wamb0wneD · Aug 14, 2019

RumHam said:
I disagree. The onus for children here falls on their parents. The onus for adults falls on themselves. By your logic we shouldn't allow people to purchase alcohol or go to casinos or do anything that may lead to an addiction (GET OFF THE INTERNET RIGHT NOW). Or alternatively we can let adults be adults.
Would it be nice if you could get this stuff easier / by paying a reasonable amount for it directly? If you don't like the prices / practices / simply don't engage in them.
If there was characters / weapons / mods / perks / stages anything like that in those loot boxes I would whole-heartedly agree with you. But there isn't.

Except alcohol and gambling in casinos is age restricted while lootboxes aren't. The onus there isn't just on parents but also the stores selling liquor or the casinos to not let anyone under 18 on their premises. Ever wondered why that is?

Answering with "letting adults be adults" when confronted with an addiction problem and systems that enable that problem is quite the take. I guess addiction in general isn't a problem because adults...or something.
So the only case you would agree with me is if it had a negative impact on your experience by getting pay2win because gambling addiction isn't actually a problem and you're more concerned about your gaming experience than other people's wellbeing. What on earth am I reading here lol.

Aztechnology · Aug 14, 2019

Has Respawn responded in an official capacity yet?

Tawpgun · Aug 14, 2019

I will say, despite the prices and event structures, it would be nice if more devs put hard limits on lootbox purchases so you can't just go super HAM with them.

PixelatedDonut · Aug 14, 2019

1000% H said:
Bemoaning people who care about skins while setting your own goal for the boxes the skins come is a weird ass flex.

That's such a weird take, obviously I'm not setting a goal like I'm achievement hunting. Hell I'll probably never open a looybox again.

Aztechnology · Aug 14, 2019

Wamb0wneD said:
Except alcohol and gambling in casinos is age restricted while lootboxes aren't. The onus there isn't just on parents but also the stores selling liquor or the casinos to not let anyone under 18 on their premises. Ever wondered why that is?

Answering with "letting adults be adults" when confronted with an addiction problem and systems that enable that problem is quite the take. I guess addiction in general isn't a problem because adults...or something.
So the only case you would agree with me is if it had a negative impact on your experience by getting pay2win because gambling addiction isn't actually a problem and you're more concerned about your gaming experience than other people's wellbeing. What on earth am I reading here lol.

Agreed

Also even when age restricted it's an obviously predatory industry/practice we probably shouldn't be defending period. Yes people can make that decision, but when it comes to a passtime we love and spend time with that until recently didn't behave this way. Well I don't agree we should be defending the practice at all period.

Jakisthe · Aug 14, 2019

Wamb0wneD said:
Except alcohol and gambling in casinos is age restricted while lootboxes aren't. The onus there isn't just on parents but also the stores selling liquor or the casinos to not let anyone under 18 on their premises. Ever wondered why that is?

Answering with "letting adults be adults" when confronted with an addiction problem and systems that enable that problem is quite the take. I guess addiction in general isn't a problem because adults...or something.
So the only case you would agree with me is if it had a negative impact on your experience by getting pay2win because gambling addiction isn't actually a problem and you're more concerned about your gaming experience than other people's wellbeing. What on earth am I reading here lol.

Alcohol has adverse health effects and, by itself, can kill someone if too much is imbibed too fast. It can cause brain damage, effects which are exacerbated in less developed individuals, such as kids. Casinos can serve as fronts for tax manipulation and fraud, and why other things that involve spending money and having a chance to get a thing are not. That's "why that is", not because it's predatory towards some people such that they spend a lot of money on it and no other reason. Marketing for anything is predatory. It's psychology.

Meanwhile, we have people who buy too many things because they have a purchasing problem, even if it's not gambling. In this very thread we had a guy who said he had a problem with retro games. Some people like fast food too much, and spend themselves into obesity and destitution (food, by the way, is regulated because of the potential for internal bodily harm at scale, not because it's too delicious). Spending too much money on anything can be a problem, but it's not regulated by that fact alone. Nothing is regulated like alcohol, cars, casinos, or anything else in the US solely on the basis that "some people spend too much money on it". That's a supremely weak reason for regulation.

RumHam · Aug 14, 2019

Wamb0wneD said:
Except alcohol and gambling in casinos is age restricted while lootboxes aren't. The onus there isn't just on parents but also the stores selling liquor or the casinos to not let anyone under 18 on their premises. Ever wondered why that is?

Answering with "letting adults be adults" when confronted with an addiction problem and systems that enable that problem is quite the take. I guess addiction in general isn't a problem because adults...or something.
So the only case you would agree with me is if it had a negative impact on your experience by getting pay2win because gambling addiction isn't actually a problem and you're more concerned about your gaming experience than other people's wellbeing. What on earth am I reading here lol.

As someone who has dealt with addiction and overcome it on my own terms, as well as had it affect friends and family I find the concept of lootbox addiction being treated with such seriousness incredibly laughable.
If we had to regulate everything as a result of our concern with everyone elses well being for every little thing, and yes a lootbox addiction is a little thing in the grand scheme of the world, then we would never function as a society.

To be clear, I'm not 'defending' this type of pricing structure. I'm saying it requires as much attention and the same type of response as anything thats priced preposterously. Don't buy it.

Wamb0wneD · Aug 14, 2019

Jakisthe said:
Alcohol has adverse health effects and, by itself, can kill someone if too much is imbibed too fast. It can cause brain damage, effects which are exacerbated in less developed individuals, such as kids. Casinos can serve as fronts for tax manipulation and fraud.

Meanwhile, we have people who buy too many things because they have a purchasing problem, even if it's not gambling. In this very thread we had a guy who said he had a problem with retro games. Some people like fast food too much, and spend themselves into obesity and destitution (food, by the way, is regulated because of the potential for internal bodily harm at scale, not because it's too delicious). Spending too much money on anything can be a problem, but it's not regulated by that fact alone. Nothing is regulated like alcohol, cars, casinos, or anything else in the US solely on the basis that "some people spend too much money on it". That's a supremely weak reason for regulation.

You think Casinos are 18+ because the government is afraid of teens commtting tax manipulation and fraud? Or is it maybe that they don't want kid's brains be conditioned into gambling habits? Online gambling addiction, and that includes lootboxes, can lead people into financial ruin, like many things, yes. Hamburgers aren't inherently designed to make you addicted to fastfood though. Every behaviour on earth can be harmful if done in unhealthy frequency, even drinking water. But most things aren't inherently designed to prey on people who are prone to addictive behavior or prey on people too you to grasp what they are getting into. And that's what lootboxes are. These companies deliberately seek out these people, a.k.a. hunting for whales and trying to create new ones.

I never argued it's just because people can spend too much money, stop being disingenuous please.

Bufbaf · Aug 14, 2019

Dr. Mario said:
Was this already posted? Can it be posted too many times?

How did I never see this OMG

Jakisthe · Aug 14, 2019

Wamb0wneD said:
You think Casinos are 18+ because the government is afraid of teens commtting tax manipulation and fraud? Or is it maybe that they don't want kid's brains be conditioned into gambling habits? Online gambling addiction, and that includes lootboxes, can lead people into financial ruin. Hamburgers aren't inherently designed to make you addicted to fastfood. Every behaviour on earth can be harmful if done in unhealthy frequency, even drinking water. But most things aren't inherently designed to prey on people who are prone to addictive behavior or prey on people too you to grasp what they are getting into. And that's what lootboxes are. These companies deliberately seek out these people, a.k.a. hunting for whales.

I never argued it's just because people can spend too much money, stop being disingenuous please.

Yes I do. Do you have any compelling - ie, government documents that say why the law was made the way it is - arguments as to otherwise, or are you also going to ignore all the other instances of "money in, uncertain reward out" which aren't regulated? I mean, tons of things can cause financial ruin. Again, we had someone in this very thread talking about it.

Hamburgers are absolutely designed to make some addicted to them. Everything is designed to make someone addicted to them - some are more successful than others. That's marketing. That's branding. That's food chemistry, and fashion shows, and everything else.

Doesn't seem disingenuous to me at all. People are facing impulses to spend money; you want to close it off for no other reason, something which nothing at all is regulated on the basis of. Nothing, at all, faces regulation solely because some people have an addiction to purchasing a thing. Nothing.

The law is not designed to cover every single negative effect for every single level of granularity with every single person at the expense of others.

Wamb0wneD · Aug 14, 2019

Jakisthe said:
Yes I do. Do you have any compelling - ie, government documents that say why the law was made the way it is - arguments as to otherwise, or are you also going to ignore all the other instances of "money in, uncertain reward out" which aren't regulated? I mean, tons of things can cause financial ruin. Again, we had someone in this very thread talking about it.

Hamburgers are absolutely designed to make some addicted to them. Everything is designed to make someone addicted to them - some are more successful than others. That's marketing.

Doesn't seem disingenuous to me at all. People are facing impulses to spend money; you want to close it off for no other reason, something which nothing at all is regulated on the basis of.

Teens don't even pay taxes. Stop being ridiculous. I'm done with getting trolled or just arguing for the arguments sake with people who lack basic levels of empathy because someone criticizes their hobby. Defend predatory practices because everybody does it all you want, I'm out.

Aztechnology · Aug 14, 2019

RumHam said:
As someone who has dealt with addiction and overcome it on my own terms, as well as had it affect friends and family I find the concept of lootbox addiction being treated with such seriousness incredibly laughable.
If we had to regulate everything as a result of our concern with everyone elses well being for every little thing, and yes a lootbox addiction is a little thing in the grand scheme of the world, then we would never function as a society.

To be clear, I'm not 'defending' this type of pricing structure. I'm saying it requires as much attention and the same type of response as anything thats priced preposterously. Don't buy it.

Matters of different scale of course. But they're still both harmful. And that you could be so callous about it is a bit scary. Maybe a little bit of survivorship bias there.

Deleted member 22750 · Aug 14, 2019

I just booted it up to look and I can't believe this game now has 3 currencies

points you receive that unlock characters (useless)
gold coins (real $$$) to purchase packs or 18 real us dollars of this currency will buy one legendary skin
this new currency that is purchased or earned (very very very slowly) for a small window of time. loaded with all legendary and epic skins.

Jakisthe · Aug 14, 2019

Wamb0wneD said:
Teens don't even pay taxes. Stop being ridiculous. I'm done with getting trolled or just arguing for the arguments sake with people who lack basic levels of empathy because someone criticizes their hobby. Defend predatory practices because everybody does it all you want, I'm out.

So no government documents that talk about why casinos - somehow unique among the exceedingly broad definition of gambling you guys wrongly use - are regulated like they are. I mean even if that *was* part of the reason, it's not the only one. Because "some people might be hoodwinked into spending too much money" is never, ever, the sole reason for regulation. Also, yes, the activities of anyone in a casino has the ability to affect taxes.

This isn't my hobby. I've never played Apex, I don't buy lootboxes, I almost never play F2P games, and this is all entirely besides anything I actually do for fun. I'm just pointing out the folly in asking for regulation on such a flimsy basis. This is not how the law works, and the analogies used are wrong.

thonerayman · Aug 14, 2019

I can almost understand people who might not understand how these things can affect people. But when you have people like myself willing to tell our stories and explain to people exactly how it targets us and people still defend it blows my mind. Believe me, I wish it was so simple as "just don't do it". But it's not, if it was, I wouldn't have been a drunk for 14 years. I wouldn't have to fight every day for the last FIVE YEARS to stay sober. It's not as simple as "just don't do it"

Deleted member 1656 · Aug 14, 2019

I have lost empathy for people because here are 13 pages and over 600 posts that I'm chucking another one onto about Apex Legends when there are tons of better fucking games out there without predatory monetization we could be talking about.

Indie Jane is over there toiling in the darkness on her turn-based survival horror masterpiece or whatever the fuck and essentially begging you to play her game on Twitter or wherever she blogs and everyone's like, "Nah, man, lemme have some of that F2P battle royale shit published by EA. Yeah, what could go wrong there? However, should the unlikely occur I will make it my mission to complain about it incessantly on the internet. And get that pixel art shit outta my face."

Obviously the problem isn't going to go away if we ignore it but there's a power in supporting and raising up those and the things that are doing better.

Turbo Tu-Tone · Aug 14, 2019

Cantona222 · Aug 15, 2019

InRainbows said:
Again this is exactly the type of post I'm talking about.

The drive by "it doesn't affect me" post.

It's been discussed to death how loot boxes are predatory by design. Ea and respawn along with a gigantic group of devs/pubs are building games that are predatory in nature towards gambling addicts and children.

It's that simple. You should care because it affects people. It might not hurt you in any way but it is a problem for a ton of people who have impulse control issues and gambling issues.

And when the economy becomes even more predatory.....REMEMBER!!!! They are targeting people who may have already payed 200$ or more to them at this point.

I see your point about how it encourages gambling and I agree that it is an issue. So let's say that there were no loot boxes and the only way is buy these cosmetics items directly piece by piece with the same total price of $154 mentioned in the OP. Are you still having an issue with that?

Hamster Plugin · Aug 15, 2019

Cantona222 said:
I see your point about how it encourages gambling and I agree that it is an issue. So let's say that there were no loot boxes and the only way is buy these cosmetics items directly piece by piece with the same total price of $154 mentioned in the OP. Are you still having an issue with that?

I wouldn't. If I was able to just get the skins I want, even if it was $20 a piece like they usually are, I wouldn't mind. Could buy some for my favorite characters. I don't want to spend $150 for every item (the only way to ensure you'll get what you want), but I could spend $40 for my two favorites.

ara · Aug 15, 2019

RumHam said:
As someone who has dealt with addiction and overcome it on my own terms, as well as had it affect friends and family I find the concept of lootbox addiction being treated with such seriousness incredibly laughable.
If we had to regulate everything as a result of our concern with everyone elses well being for every little thing, and yes a lootbox addiction is a little thing in the grand scheme of the world, then we would never function as a society.

To be clear, I'm not 'defending' this type of pricing structure. I'm saying it requires as much attention and the same type of response as anything thats priced preposterously. Don't buy it.

This is the strangest variation of "as a black man.." I've seen yet

Miles Davis · Aug 15, 2019

Outside of this horrible event scheme, the ring in solos closes too quickly for my tastes. In wins and losses I feel gun battles are being undermined. Too many things added this season without good balance. In fact, the purity of the shooting has been harmed pretty badly overall with S2. I really hope S3 is better than this.

Dropping profits were no doubt behind EA's scheme to get the whales to shell our their money. It's sick. The whole store is just damn pathetic, and with imbalances being awful at the start of the season I am starting to question who exactly is making this game anymore.

noyram23 · Aug 15, 2019

DOT_mjo said:
Nothing like preying on those gambling addictions, amirite?

It's free though, who cares? /s

Z0mbicide · Aug 15, 2019

Nope.

Aztechnology said:
Has Respawn responded in an official capacity yet?

KoolAid · Aug 16, 2019

They have now. TLDR: They're now making the items buyable on the item shop, and will do so in future events too.

https://www.ea.com/games/apex-legends/news/iron-crown-update?isLocalized=true

Tawpgun · Aug 16, 2019

KoolAid said:
They have now. TLDR: They're now making the items buyable on the item shop, and will do so in future events too.

https://www.ea.com/games/apex-legends/news/iron-crown-update?isLocalized=true

Good response, albeit a tad late.

Apex Legends New Timed Event Takes Monetization To A Whole New Level

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