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Septimius

Member
Oct 25, 2017
823
I honestly hear Elder Scrolls when I reach that point in those XV tracks. I think saying it's myopic to say they're similar is only looking at the music as someone with your knowledge would and overlooking what it actually sounds like to most everyone else.

I totally get that, and I am not trying to say someone is wrong in saying they sound similar. But to me, there's no controversy here. That's my point. I get that they can sound very similar, but that means that it's very easy to plagiarize something. Just use the same structure and change the melody around.

You're thought in one school where the tonic is always i or I. I completely respect that. In fact, I understand exactly why this is one of the stronger trains of thought.

"where the tonic is always i or I"? The tonic is the i/I by definition. You can't say "the tonic is vi here". That would be tonicization, and that would be a different tool. When you start a harmonic analysis, the first thing you do is figure out what the tonic is. When someone's harmonically analyzed the FF song in question and set it as a major scale, they would have a really hard time to explain the III that occurs, as opposed to the iii that should be there. In a minor chord, it's so commonplace to borrow the parallel five that it's practically impossible to find a song in a minor key that uses the "vanilla" v instead of a V. It creates so much more to use V.

etc. essentially all these in-key or borrowed/modal interchange chords fulfill the exact same emotional function in the keys of Am or C, with the difference in overall mood being whether it resolves to the major tonic or relative minor tonic. This leads to the treatment of an Am in A minor (the tonic) being labelled as vi, since it makes musical sense to a lot of people that way.

So, two points here:
1) There's a reason the term 'relative minor' exists.
1) In the end, a series of classification in terms of harmonic analysis is to get the point across to other people, and what actually really matters is ultimately what chords those represent, and what notes are in those chords. Just because someone is used to labeling something in a slightly different way than what you're used to, even if it makes sense to them and resolves to the exact same notes, doesn't mean you should jump down other people's necks with terms like 'perhaps you just didn't bother reading'. It doesn't make you look smart. It makes you look like a douche.

No see, you say "in terms of actual music theory" in response to my post. That either means that you say what I say isn't "actual music theory", or you didn't get that far in my post to see that I do some 'actual music theory'. I didn't want to assume you were a douche by somehow saying what I wrote wasn't actual theory, so I asked if you didn't read what I wrote, since I very specifically touched on exactly the same things.

See, the main issue I have with what you're saying is that you're saying "it doesn't really matter if it's a minor or a major key, since they're relative". That they both have the same notes, and as such, "they have the same chords". Yes, they have the same chords, but their harmonic function is so hugely different, and it's a big part of harmonic analysis to understand the harmonic functions of each chord. So when you start by saying "this song starts with a vi", that would mean we start in a way where the tonic isn't established. There are many awesome songs that start on a ii, which means your mind start by figuring the first chord is the tonic, but suddenly it throws a IV at you instead of a iv, and then suddenly your mind figures "oh, the tonic isn't the starting tone". The chord progression of a minor key works differently from a major key. In either, you always want to resolve back to the i/I. It is the most stable part, where the song can be at rest. It can build tension from there. As such, the harmonic analysis of the chord progression as a major chord is flawed, since it can't answer what the harmonic function of each chord is. That's because the tonic hasn't been properly labeled.

These are nuanced topics on the area, but it really separates the field. After all, try googling what chords are in a minor scale, and you'll find poorly written pages where people claim it's the same chords as in the relative major. It's impossible to find someone that doesn't have a degree in music that gets how integral the V of the minor chord is..
 

Falk

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,039
You're still not getting the concept of taking a step back from insisting that the tonic is i or I. I honestly doubt we're going to make much headway here and that's ironic and amusing at the same time because if you actually read beyond a couple of presumptions you have because you were taught that the tonic has to be i, (say, if there was a system where a minor tonic was a vi) you'd find that I probably actually completely agree with you on just about every aspect of harmonic analysis and how each chord functions within a given situation

Also, no, raised seventh in a minor isn't as prevalent as you think outside of classical music. Take riverdance for example. It thrives on dorian.
 

Septimius

Member
Oct 25, 2017
823
You're still not getting the concept of taking a step back from insisting that the tonic is i or I. I honestly doubt we're going to make much headway here and that's ironic and amusing at the same time because if you actually read beyond a couple of presumptions you have because you were taught that the tonic has to be i, (say, if there was a system where a minor tonic was a vi) you'd find that I probably actually completely agree with you on just about every aspect of harmonic analysis and how each chord functions within a given situation

If what I wrote was something you agreed with, why then quote my post saying "in terms of actual music theory", then? You say you agree with me, and you say it's a technicality where you're more lenient with harmonization. If there was nothing to correct, why frame it like it was something that was going to school me? Tbh, my reaction comes from being quoted with that comment. It peeves me when people treat relative keys as equivalent, so when I'm shown it as the final answer to the harmonization, I'll challenge that when it's put forth as the definite answer. And I don't get why you'd do that, given what you just said. I don't see why you reduce my post to "stuff" and add that tagline to it.
 

FondsNL

Member
Oct 29, 2017
958
To me as a layman (since this discussion is going places), its just plain uninspired generic "epic" soundtrack version 159727.

Never thought the FF series had good music, I might get some flak for that.
If you want good music in a game, play Diablo 1 and 2, Grim Fandango, RDR or Ico.
 

Falk

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,039
If what I wrote was something you agreed with, why then quote my post saying "in terms of actual music theory", then?

because you aren't getting why we'd probably agree

btw i went ahead and made something with no raised 7th in a minor key because i think we're off to a very beautiful friendship involving no raised 7ths in a minor key (sometimes)

https://soundcloud.com/falk-2/doriandorianwhereartthou/s-pIrOP

harmonic analyisis:

vi - vi - vi - ii iii vi

OR if you so wish

i - i - i - iv v i

but wait! The second time around actually raises the seventh, and as a bonus I threw in a picardy!

vi - vi - vi - ii III - VI

i - i - i - vi V -
zMoPDS3.png
 

Deleted member 26900

User requested account closure
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Oct 30, 2017
721
To me as a layman (since this discussion is going places), its just plain uninspired generic "epic" soundtrack version 159727.

Never thought the FF series had good music, I might get some flak for that.
If you want good music in a game, play Diablo 1 and 2, Grim Fandango, RDR or Ico.

Totally entitled to your opinion, but this is just wrong. At least you admit that you'll get flak for that. :P

Returning the OP at hand. I think video game soundtracks go through a period of different sounds.

I always thought it was humorous that this song and this song from Kojima's games were very similar (mainly because it's the same composer). I just think themes and such just translate better. Personally I think both songs are great, but are just similar.
 

Deleted member 2321

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Oct 25, 2017
3,555
Actually, considering your career, I'm honestly more surprised that in the entirety of years you've been writing music that you've never written something that someone then pointed out sounded like something you've never heard before

Sure, all the time.

But on a different scale. Few notes here, a harmonic shift there...

The entire Elder Scrolls theme is a pretty long passage and it´s copied almost note for note.

Sorry, but I don´t buy it.

If Shimomura says she was not aware of it there are exactly two explanations for this:

1. She´s not telling the truth.
2. She did not really write it and was actually not aware.

We´re talking the almost exact same tune, orchestrated and arranged in almost the same way, in the same medium and same genre.

This is no coincidence.
 

Falk

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,039
I mean, in all honestly all I can say is I've seen it happen time and time again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mdny-oPYMoM#t=40s

The person who composed this was unaware of FF4's Theme of Love, for example. Of course, the difference here was that the retail version of Freedom Planet did indeed change this section due to the similarity. Although, as I pointed out, so did Hellfire in FFXV since that was too close.

By your own commentary, this was indeed something in the same genre, which by its very definition narrows down the number of possible permutations.

I'm throwing out a completely speculative scenario here (as in, quote me as an 'official source' on what happened) but if you wanted to make a comparison of both tracks to the theme of Pirates of the Caribbean for example, the first two bars are identical in terms of melody, and Apocalypsis Noctis pulls ahead by virtue of the first three chords being a vi, IV, V (or, well, i, VI VII with a i tonic). Let's say Soule was riffing off that, and decided to modify the melody and chords a little (mind you, I'm not saying he did this) and then Shimomura also wanted to riff off that, and decided to modify the melody and chords a little (again, mind you, I'm not saying she did this) then suddenly the number of possible permutations got a lot smaller.
edit: Oops, analogy here falls apart by considering just Skyrim, not Elder Scrolls in general which predates PotC (2003). I think my point stands, though - given a certain style of music, things tend to group closer together than a completely random scattershot of possible permutations.

There are similarities in a lot of things. I'm guessing the folks over at Square Enix figured it was within reason for Apocalypsis Noctis, but not for Hellfire, and we get what we got.

Sorry for being vague about what I know or don't know for certain due to NDA. I think I've said enough to make my own personal point by pointing to Hellfire and how it's dissimilar versus Apocalypsis Noctis in that very regard, and that would be something other people could come to a conclusion about just by analyzing its melodies.
 
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Deleted member 2321

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Oct 25, 2017
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I mean, in all honestly all I can say is I've seen it happen time and time again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mdny-oPYMoM#t=40s

The person who composed this was unaware of FF4's Theme of Love, for example. Of course, the difference here was that the retail version of Freedom Planet did indeed change this section due to the similarity. Although, as I pointed out, so did Hellfire in FFXV since that was too close.

By your own commentary, this was indeed something in the same genre, which by its very definition narrows down the number of possible permutations.

I'm throwing out a completely speculative scenario here (as in, quote me as an 'official source' on what happened) but if you wanted to make a comparison of both tracks to the theme of Pirates of the Caribbean for example, the first two bars are identical in terms of melody, and Apocalypsis Noctis pulls ahead by virtue of the first three chords being a vi, IV, V (or, well, i, VI VII with a i tonic). Let's say Soule was riffing off that, and decided to modify the melody and chords a little (mind you, I'm not saying he did this) and then Shimomura also wanted to riff off that, and decided to modify the melody and chords a little (again, mind you, I'm not saying she did this) then suddenly the number of possible permutations got a lot smaller.
edit: Oops, analogy here falls apart by considering just Skyrim, not Elder Scrolls in general which predates PotC (2003). I think my point stands, though!

There are similarities in a lot of things. I'm guessing the folks over at Square Enix figured it was within reason for Apocalypsis Noctis, but not for Hellfire, and we get what we got.

Sorry for being vague about what I know or don't know for certain due to NDA. I think I've said enough to make my own personal point by pointing to Hellfire and how it's dissimilar versus Apocalypsis Noctis in that very regard, and that would be something other people could come to a conclusion about just by analyzing its melodies.

See, the similarities between Pirates and ES/FF fall into the "happens" category for me. Somewhat similar, similar feel and few harmonic parallels.
Something I might come up with when asked to make a soundalike.

That´s an entirely different caliber than ES and FF.

Anyway. Let´s just disagree and be cool with it.

Kudos on the FF music BTW. I thought it was great and especially SOUNDED great. I understand you were an engineer on that?

Production and Mixing is the part I like the least and I´m also the worst at in my job.

Luckily I work in advertising and my tracks are mostly supposed to be very loud. Often times brutal abuse of Waves L3 gets the job done (and hides ugly mixes somewhat) ;)
 
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Falk

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,039
Completely tangential, Eminem just showed soundalikes aren't particularly safe either as of 2017.

To answer your question though, officially yes, engineering and production side. Due to the nature of the project we ended up doing a fair bit of arrangement work too. Crystalline Chill is mostly my work, for example, despite what the liner notes say.
 

Falk

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,039
Yoshitaka Suzuki is a huge Gerard Marino fan, and his stuff does borrow a bit of inspiration from GoW (particularly 2). He's definitely in tune with what western soundtracks are doing.

Which yet again goes back to my point regarding Hellfire distancing itself from that particular melodic motif, since Suzuki did Hellfire.

Yoko Shimomura did Apocalypsis Noctis, which was arranged/orchestrated by Sachiko Miyano.
 

Dreamboum

Member
Oct 28, 2017
22,845
Any idea on why there isn't proper crediting in the original soundtrack ? As in on a per track basis.
 

Deleted member 9237

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Sounds like six notes are the same, and they have the same rhythm. The iconic part of the ES's theme is longer than 2 bars. I think it's fine.
 

jb1234

Very low key
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,223
This thread is reminding me that I need to brush up on my music theory, haha. It's getting close to two decades since the classes I took. As a performer, I have to worry about the innards of music less than composers do.
 

Fusionterra

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
700
User has been warned: thread whining.
What is actually the purpose on this thread? To shame or witchhunt shinomura? Or for betsheda to see this and sue square-enix?

To proof yourself as smart op?

Even before FFXV is out, many people on youtube notice the skyrim similiarities. Even reddit/gamefaqs, one year later you created thread for exactly what?
 

Deleted member 2321

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What is actually the purpose on this thread? To shame or witchhunt shinomura? Or for betsheda to see this and sue square-enix?

To proof yourself as smart op?

Even before FFXV is out, many people on youtube notice the skyrim similiarities. Even reddit/gamefaqs, one year later you created thread for exactly what?

Still was news to me. So there is your purpose.
 

Odesu

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,536
Ha, I made this exact thread on the old forum and even cut together a short direct comparison back then:
 

JustSomeone

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Oct 27, 2017
910
Quite an improvement over previous FF games, tbh.
And if anything, FF is the "plebian RPG series" here.
 

Calabi

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,483
Yeah I noticed this straight away when I was watching a playthrough of Final Fantasy XV. Whether or not its done on purpose, its not a good thing. When watching or playing through parts of Final Fantasy it evokes memories of that other cool franchise. I cant here that and not think of Elder Scrolls.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,111
You're still not getting the concept of taking a step back from insisting that the tonic is i or I. I honestly doubt we're going to make much headway here and that's ironic and amusing at the same time because if you actually read beyond a couple of presumptions you have because you were taught that the tonic has to be i, (say, if there was a system where a minor tonic was a vi) you'd find that I probably actually completely agree with you on just about every aspect of harmonic analysis and how each chord functions within a given situation

Also, no, raised seventh in a minor isn't as prevalent as you think outside of classical music. Take riverdance for example. It thrives on dorian.

We have the music expert facts.
 

the_bromo_tachi

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
1,365
Japan
A bit off topic, but the Animal Crossing cafe music always sounds familiar to "Life Goes on" by Hans Zimmer song featured in A League Of Their Own. So every time I walked into it, I just remember the ending to that movie.
 

daegan

#REFANTAZIO SWEEP
Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,896
Yoshitaka Suzuki is a huge Gerard Marino fan, and his stuff does borrow a bit of inspiration from GoW (particularly 2). He's definitely in tune with what western soundtracks are doing.

Which yet again goes back to my point regarding Hellfire distancing itself from that particular melodic motif, since Suzuki did Hellfire.

Yoko Shimomura did Apocalypsis Noctis, which was arranged/orchestrated by Sachiko Miyano.

Ah, thanks for that! I wish they had just done accurate crediting :/
 

ctcatsby

Member
Oct 27, 2017
569
USA
While we're at it, can we talk about how Yasunori Mitsuda totally cribbed from Joe Hisaishi's work on Laputa/Castle in the Sky for an unreleased Chrono Trigger track?



 

Risk Breaker

Member
Oct 25, 2017
882
Nope, I don't see (hear) it. I've heard the Skyrim theme many times, and I never would've thought this FFXV song sounded anything like it.

The entire song is really different, if you're basing this on 3-4 notes being similar, I don't know what to tell you.
 

Ahasverus

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,599
Colombia
Lmao no shame
Nope, I don't see (hear) it. I've heard the Skyrim theme many times, and I never would've thought this FFXV song sounded anything like it.

The entire song is really different, if you're basing this on 3-4 notes being similar, I don't know what to tell you.
Those three notes are the main theme from the series, and they even copied the progression at the end. Sounds like an homage actually.
 

Meows

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,399
Completely tangential, Eminem just showed soundalikes aren't particularly safe either as of 2017.

To answer your question though, officially yes, engineering and production side. Due to the nature of the project we ended up doing a fair bit of arrangement work too. Crystalline Chill is mostly my work, for example, despite what the liner notes say.
Random aside from the topic at hand but you did great work, I love that track.
 

Septimius

Member
Oct 25, 2017
823
because you aren't getting why we'd probably agree

But, you're saying I am completely right in my harmonic analysis, but that I am somehow pedantic in differentiating between relative keys. So you agree with what I'm saying, yet you started quoting me by calling what you quoted "actual music theory", as compared to what I said. When you try to correct someone to something that makes less sense, I don't get why you'd word it the way you did, and that's what I keep asking.

Now, regarding your chord progression, don't you find your chord progression strange when it doesn't touch the tonic? The numerals make a lot more sense when you can actually see them revolve around a root. You can absolutely make a chord progression that doesn't stop by the tonic, but you would have to underline the tonic with the melody then. It's that mindset that I have no idea why you keep trying to say is equally correct "because it involves the same notes".

vi - vi - vi - ii iii vi

So you're saying you start on the submediant, which would normally want to resolve to the supertonic. So far so good. Then we walk up to a mediant, which may work, and then back to the submediant. See how forceful that chord progression is? There's no predominants, no dominants, no resolution. If I saw such a harmonic analysis, I'd be very interested in what the melody was doing to justify it. It is absolutely possible. Take Chandelier by Sia. The song is in Db, and the chords go
verse: vi, IV, V, iii
bridge: IV, vi, V
chorus: IV, V, iii, IV

But you can still see it using the dominant function. It just doesn't want to resolve to I, but you feel that that's the tonal center. The important part here is the dominant function, which is completely missing from what you call a correct harmonic analysis. The problem that makes it bad is that it's not just about writing down what notes to play. Harmonic analysis is about understanding what functions the various chords have. The moment you switch it to a minor key, you get:


And suddenly we see the predominant and dominant functions.

Now, a big clue about minor vs major is if you see the major V as a dominant over the v because it just creates a much more interest texture. And you say that it's hardly ever used outside of classical music. But everyone from Pink Floyd, to the FFXV song this whole thread is about, and even the first minor song I found from the Super Mario Odyssey (Wooded Kingdom - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HEEuCeclSM) uses the major V in their minor key. It is an extreme stretch to call it still the relative major with some contrived modal interchange. It's extremely rare to actually find a minor v instead of what was once a modal interchanged V, but is now it's just considered an actual diatonic chord.

So again, I don't see how my original posts warrants such a disrespectful reply.
 
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Oregano

One Winged Slayer
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Oct 25, 2017
22,878
I just want to add that I played this music and my brother thought I was playing Skyrim Switch.
 
OP
OP
Gundam

Gundam

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,801
It's certainly interesting, but she only uses at the very start of her theme a note progression that the Cheap Trick song uses throughout, and after that the tunes don't sound alike at all. Even if she was somehow inspired by that song, it's more akin to a rapper using a sample than outright theft.

Combined with Ken already being a bootleg Tom Cruise, this is surely 100% intentional. She lifted it. Nothing wrong with that, its a cool homage. But she straight lifted it.
 

Venom

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,635
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So the takeaway from this is basically one is Chips and Curry and the other is Chips and Gravy. Essentially the same but ultimately aiming for different things.

Pun intended.
 

Acquiesc3

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,724
Ehhh not hearing it OP.

Clearly different songs. If you want to stretch it you could say inspired but I highly doubt even that.
 

Acquiesc3

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,724


I don't think they ripped it off or even "lifted" it as OP suggested.

This was seriously the same thing as the powerman5000 and FF14 thing and I feel the same way about this.

That part may sound similar but that doesn't necessarily mean they ripped it off or even got inspired by it. Again they are two DIFFERENT songs.
 

Drelkag

Member
Oct 25, 2017
527
I don't think they ripped it off or even "lifted" it as OP suggested.

This was seriously the same thing as the powerman5000 and FF14 thing and I feel the same way about this.

That part may sound similar but that doesn't necessarily mean they ripped it off or even got inspired by it. Again they are two DIFFERENT songs.

I'm not saying they ripped them off (check my previous posts, I don't think she intentionally did so either). Just wondering how you couldn't hear the similarity.
 

Acquiesc3

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Oct 30, 2017
1,724
I'm not saying they ripped them off (check my previous posts, I don't think she intentionally did so either). Just wondering how you couldn't hear the similarity.

It was the first thing I noticed when I heard that FF15 track. But.. I kept on listening and clearly they are very different songs.

Like I said, if you look up the whole powerman5000 and ff14 this was the exact same thing that happened. Literally a few seconds of a song sounding similar (at most) out of a 2-3 minute song that is totally different and people are freaking out.
 
OP
OP
Gundam

Gundam

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Oct 25, 2017
12,801
Something tells me that you may also be interested in this comparison, but I personally don't really hear it as much:





I had actually heard this before, but holy shit this is so on the nose. I didn't open this thread to question Shimomura (I know she wasn't the only composer on SFII or FFXV) but... holy shit? Now I'm starting to question it...

How can some people not hear the resemblance?

Denial. A belief that their favorite composer/video game franchise is pure, and incapable of intentional plagiarism, or otherwise incredibly heavy inspiration from outside sources.
That's what it feels like, based off of the defensiveness and shifting goalposts in this thread, anyway.
 

Van Bur3n

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
26,089
I believe my opinion of this on the old website was that is was probably just an amazing coincidence.

Very amazing considering that one part in the track is almost an exact recreation of the ES theme. Rather odd she went with it unless she is unaware of Jeremy Soule and TES as a whole.
 

horkrux

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,701
It was the first thing I noticed when I heard that FF15 track. But.. I kept on listening and clearly they are very different songs.

Like I said, if you look up the whole powerman5000 and ff14 this was the exact same thing that happened. Literally a few seconds of a song sounding similar (at most) out of a 2-3 minute song that is totally different and people are freaking out.

But that's what people are talking about. Those few seconds that sound so very similiar. It's not about the entire song.
 

Arkage

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You can't really "copy a chord progression". If you copy the way Queen modulates in any of their songs, you're stealing. Because they write genius chord progressions. You can't steal a i, VI, VII, iv progression. It's a very natural chord progression.

So are you claiming Queen was using modulations never before used in the history of compositions? And if not, how could one claim they were particularly Queen-like in the first place?
 

Septimius

Member
Oct 25, 2017
823
So are you claiming Queen was using modulations never before used in the history of compositions? And if not, how could one claim they were particularly Queen-like in the first place?

Queen is particularly crafty when it comes to modulation and modal interchange. They just absolutely destroy most other things out there. The things they do are so esoteric, that if I found a piece that modulated in the same way as a Queen song, I'd have a hard time saying it wasn't taken from that Queen song. That's some music theory on another level. So I'm saying that when they modulate four times in a tiny section of a song, that's likely not something someone else will do by chance. It's like a game of chess. There are tons of standard openings; standard ways to play. Then when you decide to do one surprising move to change up the Ryu-Lopez, that's fine, but the moment you start doing more crazy moves in a row, it's hard not to think this is someone that's seen that game earlier and is using the same moves. I mean, the comparison completely falls flat, since the good chess players are those that actually know most variations on openings, but hopefully I'm getting some sort of idea across.

What Queen does is extremely complex, and as such it unlikely that someone else would do exactly the same thing they did.
 

Acquiesc3

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Oct 30, 2017
1,724
But that's what people are talking about. Those few seconds that sound so very similiar. It's not about the entire song.

Ignoring the entire song when it's very relevant to the discussion (topic of ripping off) is a mistake imo.

Regardless, as I've said, it could be inspired but I have doubts on even that. I completely disagree that it was straight up lifted as OP suggests.
 

Arkage

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Queen is particularly crafty when it comes to modulation and modal interchange. They just absolutely destroy most other things out there. The things they do are so esoteric, that if I found a piece that modulated in the same way as a Queen song, I'd have a hard time saying it wasn't taken from that Queen song. That's some music theory on another level. So I'm saying that when they modulate four times in a tiny section of a song, that's likely not something someone else will do by chance. It's like a game of chess. There are tons of standard openings; standard ways to play. Then when you decide to do one surprising move to change up the Ryu-Lopez, that's fine, but the moment you start doing more crazy moves in a row, it's hard not to think this is someone that's seen that game earlier and is using the same moves. I mean, the comparison completely falls flat, since the good chess players are those that actually know most variations on openings, but hopefully I'm getting some sort of idea across.

What Queen does is extremely complex, and as such it unlikely that someone else would do exactly the same thing they did.

Is there an example of someone successfully claiming copyright infringement over the modulations taking place in a song?