-
Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
Arizona bill would require students say Pledge of Allegiance.
- Thread starter TaySan
- Start date
What is the proposed penalty here? A fine? I wonder if a primary objective of this is to target undocumented students to try to deport them.
I believe it's mostly an American thing. And one that weirds a lot of Europeans out.
I first took note of the practice nearly 20 years ago and even then it befuddled me a bit, though it took me some time to realize exactly why. It was mostly because it was one of the more visible and obvious forms of American-style patriotism that, when I took a closer look at it came across as... I dunno… hollow.
To Europeans, American-style patriotism often comes across as really over-the-top. It conjures images of flags everywhere, not just on a flagpole on every house, but on every bumper and on every lapel. It conjures images of Americans fawning over the Constitution (with a capital C) as if it's some uniquely American thing while other democratic countries also have constitutions that for the most part say the same thing. It conjures up images of folks with no legal degree nevertheless walking around with pocket constitutions. And it conjures images of grown men crying whenever the word "Freedom" is uttered while most democratic countries aren't really less free, aside from maybe a few clauses against hate speech and unrestricted gun ownership, things that in the eyes of a lot of other westerners don't really make a country more free in the long run since it's often associated with anti-democratic elements. And yes, images of 6-year olds reciting the pledge to a flag.
And yet, what I saw beyond all that glitter was a society that couldn't come together to repair its crumbling infrastructure or set up a social security and healthcare system that ensured a standard of living reflecting its gross national product. More importantly, beyond the glitter was a society whose participation rate in elections was at a paltry 60%, far below many other western countries. (that was before I learned that the political system discouraged voter participation in any part of the country that wasn't a swing state) It made me wonder whether maybe Americans weren't really that much more patriotic than the average European, they just pretended to be through an abundance of flag waving, pledge recital and other gestures that were high on symbolism but low on substance. It made me think of a husband who declares his undying love to his wife every morning, has her name tatooed on both his forearms and has an abbreviation of her name on his license plate, but at the same time never manages to remember their anniversary.
I suppose that's been my real issue with the pledge; it encourages the definition of patriotism as less a dedication to consistent electoral participation and civic duty and more as a dedication to a series of highly symbolic and highly visible gestures and rituals. Of course, seeing that the US is historically a collection of 50 highly diverse mini-countries, maybe these bombastic rituals were necessary to foster a national spirit of cohesion that would be difficult to maintain otherwise.
I've felt this way about the subject for a long time, but nowadays it's particularly galling to see that the same folks who jump through hoops to enforce this brand of patriotism are the same folks who are repeating foreign-made propaganda in their efforts to defend a president accused of poisoning the country's free elections and it makes the divide between grand symbolism (personified in Trump creepily humping the flag) and actual civic duty all the bigger.
Also worth mentioning, that even as a child in elementary school in the US, this practice freaked me the fuck out. It is 100% weird that a country professing to be the bastion of freedom, essentially requires you to swear allegiance.
I wasn't talking about white nationalists, I was talking about nationalism. Which, in turn, can lead to white nationalism. How many history books do we need to read on this shit? Patriotism and natioalism are absolutely gateways to more radical ideologies and serve literally no other purpose outside of false pride for things you had nothing to do with personally.
A lot of times people believe in God because they were told ever since they were able to think and process language that he exists, yes.
Letting kids do nationalistic things will make some of them nationalists later on. This isn't that hard of a concept. It sucks enough that some households project that shit on their children, school has no business having part in any of that.
This is pretty much what taking children to church is about, ya.
Lol, what?
Service members were barely mentioned ever during peacetime, which some posters aren't old enough to remember ever happening.
But I think the real catalyst for your line of thinking was when the armed forces started paying sports teams to promote them during games.
On top of that, what's respectful about having people mindlessly recite words that have next to no meaning to them?
I remember similar with "The Lords Prayer" when I was a kid. Just words to be remembered and droned with no thought process involved.
Yeah this is settled already, but with the right wing nut jobs on the court right now I'm not so sure it's safe anymore.
My brother's in-laws grew up with that family from the case, its an interesting story. Spending most of my life in a cult sucked, but the legal history of Jehovah's Witnesses is fascinating, although man it fucking sucks not saying they pledge when the entire room looks at you as a kid.
That's insanity. The idea you'd even do an optional pledge every morning militaristic as fuck and reeks of the shit that China or North Korea would impose.
I lived and went to school in a quite a few different countries growing up and the pledge every morning in America was easily the weirdest thing in any of the schools I went to.
The pledge should be abolished entirely. Creepy Cold War era cult shit to have a bunch of children chant a blood oath to a piece of fabric.
Same here. I always thought it was bizarre and creepy but I only realized just how weird and "indoctrination-y" it was when I mentioned it to a foreign friend and they had such a confused reaction.
I especially remember how after 9/11 they would make us stand an additional few minutes to listen to this patriotic country song about loving the USA after saying the pledge of allegiance.
I remember having to do it in local school in Singapore and Nigeria
International schools for obvious reasons don't give a shit
the armed forces haven't served the people of this country in a long time. they serve private and political interests. thanking them would be like thanking an employee of Blackwater.
Of course. They sure as hell don't mean meditation and yoga. These are the people that try their hardest to stuff Religion, Christianity especially, into everything. A big chunk of them would take "Jesus" as an acceptable answer to a 2+2= equation.
Last edited:
To be fair that was the normal hand sign before the nazis ruined it
To also be fair nazis were really popular in America at the time
Same kind of indoctrination countries under communism went through.
The creepy part is it's seen as a normal thing to do, so you know it did its job.
The creepy part is it's seen as a normal thing to do, so you know it did its job.
I suspected, but didn't want to assume, though I really should, all things considered.
Also 2+2= Jesus is ludicrous. The christian messiah is only an acceptable answer for equations that result in the number 7.
Which is what I said. They ruled on it but that doesn't make it right. Same as if the court today ruled against abortion or reversed a previous decision etc.
You misunderstand. The SC ruled in 1943 that it's unconstitutional to make students say the pledge in school.
Honestly,
This thread has been really insightful: I had no idea people disliked the Pledge of Allegiance so much. I didn't know people equated the Pledge to "brainwashing" and fascism and nationalism and communism. Maybe that's because I'm the one who has been brainwashed to think he hasn't been brainwashed... or you people have been brainwashed to accuse everyone else of being brainwashed?
Either way, this has been a good read. I mean that sincerely. Y'all think so differently than me. It's cool to read/see the other side.
This thread has been really insightful: I had no idea people disliked the Pledge of Allegiance so much. I didn't know people equated the Pledge to "brainwashing" and fascism and nationalism and communism. Maybe that's because I'm the one who has been brainwashed to think he hasn't been brainwashed... or you people have been brainwashed to accuse everyone else of being brainwashed?
Either way, this has been a good read. I mean that sincerely. Y'all think so differently than me. It's cool to read/see the other side.
i think it's a safe bet to assume the people against the daily ritualistic chant praising an inanimate object are not the brainwashed ones.
who cares why? He doesn't think it should be a law, he agrees with you that if a kid doesn't want to say it, whatever....
but you want to dive deeper into this....why exactly?
I swear to god, some of you are just looking for a fight.
"OK, class, time for our regularly scheduled, totally non-religious 'Private Reflection Among Youth' time."
I don't think the Nazis ruined it, they just took up what was always a pretty facist sign , (have people raise their hands like it's a sword) since it fit their ideology like a glove. Nazis were pretty consistent and thoughtful about how they picked their iconography, one of the reasons it's still so popular in some parts of Asia, where they don't seem to really understand the historical context
Sure. I just thought everyone understood that saying the pledge was like... symbolic of respect and that we are appreciative of those who serve the country. Like when you swear on the Bible in court to tell the truth. I don't think anyone actually thinks that the Bible itself (I am a Christian) holds some super magical truth detecting powers and God will strike you dead where you stand if you don't swear on it or something. Right? Like everyone understands it's just symbolic. Or when a judge enters the courtroom, everyone stands. It's a symbolic symbol of respect. We don't actually think the judge is like... an actual person who is "higher" than other human beings in a physical or spiritual way.
Like when people say, "I think the Nintendo Switch is a sexy machine!" they don't actually want to have physical sex with an inanimate object. It's just a way of saying "I really like this thing!".
... I personally, Mexican-democrat-liberal-millennial, have always understood the pledge of allegiance as just a symbolic "ritual" of respect and appreciation... nothing more than that. And I don't think a daily ritualistic chant is going to turn you into a Nationalist, any more than I assume playing video games will make you violent.
That said: like people have said here, if you feel that the pledge and the flag is a symbol of hate and racism and you don't want to salute or pledge or whatever... that's fine. I'm with you. I get it that some people feel like this country is not worthy of respect or gratitude. That's fine. I'm FOR the right to NOT say the pledge. I don't think that makes you un-American or unappreciative or anything. In reverse, I don't think to say the pledge every day makes you (or is likely to) a communist or nationalist or conservative.
Honestly, quiet self-reflection and mediation (non-religious) is GOOD for every human being. It would be good for every person to be able to just set aside "moments" of their day to just.... be quiet. And sit, and think, and reflect and breathe.
I don't think that's weird to give moments of your day, every day, to just PAUSE.
people ITT don't think it's turning you into a nationalist. they believe that forcing kids to do it is something a nationalist regime would do. People in Nazi Germany if asked why they salute Hitler and their flag wouldn't reply, "Because we're Nazis!" They would say something about paying respect to Germany and it's leadership or something like that.
Yeah, I follow that. And I think it's stupid to force kids to do it and I don't support it.
I just don't agree with the logic that we shouldn't do it because a nationalist regime does it.. I mean, to me, that's like saying: "Playing violent video games, and posting on 4chan is something a school shooter WOULD do, so you shouldn't do it!".
Well no one should be posting on 4chan because 4chan should have long since been shuttered but that's another topic. we shouldn't start every school day with a pledge because it's ...stupid... and the reasons for it seem a lot like indoctrination
