As a HUGE Mega Man fan, Mega Man 11 raises far more fears than hopes...

KojiKnight

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,085

The announcement of MM11 brought joy to a lot of hardcore and casual Mega Man fans... but I was not one. I tried to communicate why I thought MM11 was a minimum effort attempt to appease fans, but I got shouted down pretty hard. It's been a little while now, so I want to revisit this topic and hopefully explain a bit more clearly why Mega Man fans should be cautious and even worried about the future of Mega Man.

A big thing that needs to be pointed out... a single number entry in the core Mega Man franchise is probably the easiest way they could have chosen to bring the series back. This isn't to poo-poo the efforts as being simple or no effort... but of all of the various Mega Man franchises (or even creating a new one) they are amongst the fasted to complete.



The first time completion of most Mega Man titles on NES seems to average about 3 hours... but something funny happens as you go higher on the list. Mega Man 9 and 10 are listed as an average completion of 2 hours. The way I interpret this is not that 9 and 10 are easier than the NES originals, but rather it was mostly old time fans of the series who were playing this and thus people who know the ins and outs of these games.

The X and Zero series seem to add about an hour or so to that length as there are more collectibles. Legends and Battle Network add significant time because of their nature as far less simple 2D platforms.

What can you get away with charging for a 2-hour experience in 2018? What kind of sales can you expect to maintain especially in the era of Steam Refunds?

Trying to find sales numbers for 9/10 are nigh-impossible and all we know is that 9 was "very good" and that 10 was the last Mega Man made for 8 years.

Legacy Collection numbers are a little easier to find bits and pieces of with sources like SteamSpy reporting 130k users on steam... but by the same token, collection 2 only garnered sub-30k by comparison. Even by the best numbers, it's a much easier sell bundling multiple 2 hour games together than a brand new single one.


To wrap this all up... Mega Man, I feel, is probably in a more dangerous position right now than it was before announcing MM11. Unless there is a huge twist to what constitutes Mega Man 11, we're looking at a couple hour long game that's going to have to sell quite a bit, and for probably more than just $20. There are going to be a LOT of people asking value per dollar questions and it's NOT going to pan out well for the blue bomber... and what then? I don't see Capcom giving Mega Man another shot at a more substantial genre if this doesn't pan out. It won't be outdated gaming conventions or a poor price/hour play ratio, it'll be blamed on the fans.

Would an X or Zero title have been a better choice? Honestly the value prospect isn't much better... Now would have been a great time to branch out and try something new. They already gave nostalgic fans their love letters with 9 and 10. This could have been a chance to strike out in a new direction and get a new crowd while still playing to the older fan base. Ah well, as I promised the day MML3 was cancelled, I'll be there day one for any new Mega Man game to show my support... I just can't shake the feeling things aren't going to go well long term with this strategy.
 

gaiadyne

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
1,184
Yeah being 30 sucks
I tried to get a typical off topic response in, but I'm just happy there is more mega man
 
Oct 26, 2017
1,360
I think you're putting way too much stock in the "sub-franchise" that they chose. It needs to be judged on its own merits, and everything they've shown points to a content-rich effort made with an awareness of where the other Mega Man series have gone, and where the franchise needs to go, holistically, in the future. I'm very excited for it.
 

DecoReturns

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,071
I'll wait to see more gameplay and stuff before judging. No point in worrying now, plus I'm a optimist.
 

mindatlarge

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,187
PA, USA
I'm not worried about the length and how that could have an effect on sales, MM games are just right, imo, and I think people know what to expect going into one. What I'm more concerned about with 11 is the art style and it not feeling at home in a traditional MM game. Guess only time will tell if both of our fears will be put to rest.
 

Phil32

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,505
I would happy with a Mega Man & Bass or Mega Man 8 collection system with either data disks or special bolts to earn. Those made for some great replay value and required returns to levels. Even Powered Up on PSP added lots of content, and that's not even including the level creator. I don't have the fears that you do, KojiKnight, but I understand why you have them.
 

gaiadyne

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
1,184
...and for a real response, Classic Mega Man has never really escaped it's old school origins where the difficulty artificially inflated the playtime. Could they do more to extend the playtime and also the value? Absolutely but that might result in them throwing away some of the Mega Man Staples like the 8 bosses being counters. I think if they wanted to they could easily make a bunch of levels, I mean look at all the indie platform games that have hundreds of levels. Chances are this game is going to be priced in the Sonic Mania tier, but will it have Sonic Mania level content? I think they might surprise us but I fully expect a minimum effort nostalgia grab
 

Jashobeam

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,307
eh nostalgia will sell this game, no worries, just needs an amiibo to go with it and it will sell millions on switch
 

ILikeFeet

Member
Oct 25, 2017
28,378
eh nostalgia will sell this game, no worries, just needs an amiibo to go with it and it will sell millions on switch
I'm not to convinced this game can hit a million combined. Outside of nostalgia, Mega Man hasn't done much to to garner widespread appeal. Maybe it can pull a Sonic Mania if it's good enough
 

Vinnk

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,832
Japan
Mega Man 1 might be able to be completed by hardcore series fans in 3 hours, but when I played it as a kid it took me hundreds of hours and thousands of deaths to finish it. And I bet today it would still take me a while to beat a Mega Man game...

BTW where are your stats from?
 
OP
OP
KojiKnight

KojiKnight

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,085
eh nostalgia will sell this game, no worries, just needs an amiibo to go with it and it will sell millions on switch
Let's run with this thought. Let's say this is exactly what happens... What's next? The thing with nostalgia cards is you can't play them nonstop.

Again, compare legacy collection 1 and 2 on steamspy, it's like a 4:1 drop in sales. How viable is Mega Man as a franchise? Especially if the goal is just to retread.
 

AlexFlame116

Member
Nov 17, 2017
16,652
Utah
Not to be rude or anything, but I remember you being pretty harsh on the new Mega Man announcement because nothing new for the Legends series was announced.

But I think that for now, for a franchise like Mega Man, even if it "safe", it's probably what the franchise needs to be tested for Capcom. We don't know the exact length of this upcoming Mega Man game is yet. We don't even know the full details on it. But it's Capcom's way of seeing if Mega Man is still relevant for this new generation of gamers.

Now one can argue and say, of course he is still relevant. He's Mega Man! But we never know. Mega Man 11 could be a bomb, or it couldn't. It could be successful. But it all depends on the reception.

I'm not saying that we should just blindly accept this game even if it has massive flaws. Mighty No. 9 tried to do that and was called out for it. But we should still try to be optimistic for 11. I don't really know how to feel about the new art style, but I'm still going to give it a chance to impress me. Hopefully it does good!
 

Deleted member 11093

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,095
Bet 50 bucks that Mega Man fans would've complained nonstop about MM11 if it was more than 5 hours.

"REAL Mega Man games were short!"
 

Red Devil

Member
Oct 29, 2017
761
Can't see how games with short play time won't sell. There're good margin of public who prefers concise experience than longer one. Platformers like Mega Man are especially better off without padding.

Judging from what Game Informer covered, the game is backed by devs with decent track. The director Koji Oda was also involved in Strider 2014, which turned out pretty well. I think there's little reason to panic already.

Now, I'd be extra happy if they'll do something with that Mega Man Legends 3...
 

Oreiller

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,244
The game's director had a critical role in Ultimate Ghouls n Ghosts. It's going to be fine.
 

rawhide

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,621
Who gives a shit if it's "viable"? Let them worry about brand management, just play the dang game and hope they didn't screw up something so simple.

If it makes you feel any better, they have a new Mega Man cartoon coming this year and I imagine they have an original "viable" game that'll tie into that, and that MM11 is them throwing a bone to the core fans and isn't meant to make or break the return of the franchise.
 

TreIII

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,863
Columbia, MD
The game's director had a critical role in Ultimate Ghouls n Ghosts. It's going to be fine.
This.

And besides, if we really want Capcom to get the ball rolling on Rockman in some way (at least to the point where they can shake the notion that "Americans don't care for Mega Man!" for good), then this is a good place to start.
 

Brock Reiher

Member
Oct 25, 2017
36,694
We don't have a price yet, both Mega Man 9 and 10 did fine despite being short because they weren't $60.
 

Sinople

Member
Oct 27, 2017
197
No way the vast majority of players can beat a new Megaman in 2~3 hours their first time with it.
 

Thatguy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,581
Seattle WA
2D games can still sell if priced right. Nintendo gets the pass charging $60 for NSMB as does Ubi with Rayman. The key there is having 50+ levels, whereas Mega Man is usually around 13 or 14 levels. If Capcom came out and made it a Metroid Vania, or made it 50+ levels that would work.
 

StormEagle

Member
Oct 29, 2017
503
What can you get away with charging for a 2-hour experience in 2018?
This is the main error in your assumption. It will not be a 2-hour game. Why? Cause none of the Mega Man games are 2-hours long unless you speed through it and know what you are doing. And howlongtobeat even lists the averages of Mega Man games around 3-hours with many entries rushing through. Leisurely they are >4 hours. And I don't think many real casual players report their stats to howlongtobeat.
The people who can rush through in 2-hours won't mind 'cause they are fans who like this and casual players will have to learn the game by moving more carefully and/or retrying levels and bosses over and over. Just like we did the first time we played those games.
More modern Mega Man games have already started to include more collectibles and many different modes to offer replay value. This will also lengthen the game play and add more 'value'.
I am quite the Mega Man cynic that still holds a bit of a grudge towards Capcpom and do not like the art-style chosen for Mega Man 11 much, but I don't worry too much about the game. It can only be an improvement to the previous situation as it will be "better than nothing" and maybe even good.
Also, classic Mega Man is the best known Mega Man incarnation. He is in Smash and has an amiibo. He is the best marketable version and his 'name' sells better than any other incarnation or new spinoff.
 

Acquila

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,098
Completely fine with it, as long as the content is still more or less the same. I'd rather not the time to beat be bogged down with padding like the mid-stage "cutscenes" in the latter X titles.
 

El Crono

Member
Oct 27, 2017
262
Mexico
As a fan I'm very interested and optimist about it. The new design is very good though it doesn't translate so well to 3D as can be seen from the trailer. Capcom dropped the ball in recent years with many of their franchises, but has shown with recent efforts like Resident Evil 7 and Monster Hunter World that they can put out a product that fans will like, so hopefully they'll put the same attention to detail.
 

zroid

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,362
Canada
Man, I have my own reservations about this game (although I'm being cautiously optimistic at this point), but I feel the angle you are approaching this from is just silly. Time to completion is hardly relevant to whether it is a good game and a worthwhile endeavor.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,679
Capcom isn't stupid. This is clearly intended as a small downloadable title. I would be extremely surprised if it was more than $20. I also expect their sales expectations are not all that high, which is precisely why they greenlit it when so many other Mega Man pitches apparently got turned down - it's an extremely safe bet that doesn't require a huge budget and won't require a ton of sales to recoup that budget.
 

rawhide

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,621
2D games can still sell if priced right. Nintendo gets the pass charging $60 for NSMB as does Ubi with Rayman. The key there is having 50+ levels, whereas Mega Man is usually around 13 or 14 levels. If Capcom came out and made it a Metroid Vania, or made it 50+ levels that would work.
Ubisoft's new Rayman games both flopped until they hit bargain prices, though. People know they're good and still won't pay top dollar for them.
 

Terraforce

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
9,977
This isn't going to be a full $60 title. This is a smaller scale Mega Man game that simultaneously gauges interest in the series and moves the classic formula forward. They have openly stated in subsequent interviews that they hear the requests and plan to revive series like Legends and Battle Network given there is enough demand and fans show their support for games like 11.

http://comicbook.com/gaming/2017/12/17/capcom-aware-fan-demand-battle-network-mega-man-legends/

This is basically just a test. If we pass, then we get exactly what you're asking for OP.
 

RM8

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,414
JP
Short and sweet is fine. Mega Man games are infinitely replayable to me, I don't need padding to make each playthrough longer.

As for the sales of the recently released collections - the first one has all the fan favourite games, it's not difficult to see why it sold much better. The second one also skipped 3DS, a platform that sold quite a lot of copies of the first one.
 

casiopao

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
5,044
Time completion is not something to worry if u ask me here. The biggest thing i would worry is the level design and how clunky the animations seems to lock on the first showing. I would love MM9 level of level design for sure rather than MM10 there.
 

Leviathan

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,659
My big issue is that, as much as I love the original Megaman, it was absolutely the safest sub-franchise they could've chosen to pick back up and I can't really see a new entry having much of an impact, or moving us forward.

Maybe I've been spoiled by years of the other MM series, but I just can't get excited about this. No, I'm not upset and I'm definitely going to buy the game, but I can't see myself following along through its development. When I go back to these games after playing the others, I just find myself bored by the absence of meaningful lore, the lack of development of the world and characters from one game to the next, and the more streamlined gameplay (usually, not always the case). In contrast, games in the other universes tend to juggle more lore and secondary gameplay systems, along with the core sidescrolling action we get in the originals.

I'm hungry enough to get 11, but not desperate enough to expect too much from it. This isn't to say there is something wrong with the original series or with a clean and classic experience. I'm just thinking that we're bound to get less bang for our buck with them going this direction. I know it's Capcom, but I wish they would've taken a chance.

Still, more Megaman is good Megaman. Maybe if this goes well they'll take another look at X, Zero, and even BN. I really do hope it succeeds.
 

Crocodile

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,698
So because M11 is likely to be short (though probably very replayable) like most Mega Man games you're freaking out? I'm not sure this really computes. Its not like they (the game industry as a whole) stopped making short but replayable games nowadays. MM9 and 10 were what $10/$15 right? I think Capcom will manage just fine.
 

SNRUB

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,084
New Jersey
I’m not a Mega Man but from what I’ve seen of 11, you can’t deny that they’re dedicated and kicks the likes of MN9 out of the ballpark.

I might pick it up when it releases. Maybe should try the earlier games too.
 

petran79

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,025
Greece
Back then I could finish Megaman 3 in a single session, taking me 3-4 hours the least and I knew the game inside out.Now I am in a state to finish just one boss per day
 

Dullahan

Resettlement Advisor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,426
I agree with being not excited. It looks too much like Mighty Number 9 a cheaply made Unity game .
Absolutely not. MN9 looked cheap and was cluttered as fuck. MM11 looks very sharp, and everything has big black outlines so everything is always clear on screen. Plus Game Informer played 2 full levels, and said it was just as good as any classic MM, and was just as responsive in terms of control. So I don't see the MN9 thing, other that it being 2.5D.

As for OP's points, I don't get it. Why should Mega Man be overlong? Series has had great games of similar length for years. Why change that for the sake of change? Some things are fine just the way they are.
 

RockmanBN

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,779
Cornfields, Nebraska
I think they could touch up on lighting or make the background more alive. Most peoples issue is Mega Man's animation in general. The enemies actually animate well and look good in that cell shaded style.
 

skeezx

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,085
it's 2018... i'm skeptical MM11 will be a standalone 'campaign' of 8 robot masters + wily castle and you're done. expecting something along the likes of Endless Attack mode in MM9 or 10, time attack leaderboards, or something of the like

either way we're pretty much back to where we were in 2008 where it'd had been forever since a MM proper, old fans want to relive the games in a back-to-basics way just as new fans want a fairly standard intro the series. i don't see how they're really flubbing it with MM11 with what we've seen so far