i think most people are going to agree lolis are bad. all it did was pave the way to have the conversation about anime tending to portray young women sexually a lot in a lot of shows and manga.
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As an anime fan, its unsettling/disturbing how many people defend lolicon
- Thread starter DragonSJG
- Start date
It's vile and ruins the reputation of anime as a whole.
Went to a con and saw this shit all over pillows. How this became a culture fuck knows. It's should've been snuffed out as soon as the first degenerate made it.
Now it seeps into things that could be great all to pander to creeps.
Went to a con and saw this shit all over pillows. How this became a culture fuck knows. It's should've been snuffed out as soon as the first degenerate made it.
Now it seeps into things that could be great all to pander to creeps.
I suppose this is neither here nor there, but really weirds me out about Japanese porn and hentai is how much of it is just straight up misogyny. I don't mean that as some kind of "porn is degrading" statement - that's a whole other discussion entirely - but I mean that the fetish they're selling just seems to be hatred of women.
Like, there's one company that seems to be dedicated to making games where there's some bound up girl and you just beat the crap out of her, or fighting games that are like Street Fighter except that it's all women except for that one character that has a move where he just punches a woman in the face until you manually disengage.
Then there seems to be a whole genre where you have horror-esque stories where the woman is traumatized or goes insane.
I was even looking up a video of fatalies from Samurai Shodown online to show a friend and there's one where it's all done on Nakaruru as a fetish thing.
I know that particular dominance dynamics are appealing to some women so I'm a little averse to make too many assumptions, but when these elements are the central selling point and there are dozens of people selling them, it leaves wondering who the people supporting this market are.
Is it really not sexualized though? Imagine a parent took a video of themselves and their say 6-7 year old children taking a bath and posted it on youtube. It's one thing for parents to take baths with their children, but a whole another thing for that to become MEDIA for strangers to consume.
Some people asked earlier in the thread how Japanese people view it. Here is how I understand it:
While a lot of Japanese people find lolicon creepy, they also believe it ultimately doesn't harm anyone as no one is harmed in its creation. And given the importance in Japanese culture on not causing problems for others if they aren't disrupting society, nothing gets done. This mindset is only furthered supported by a liberal-conservative government*, and people who disagree not feeling comfortable speaking up in such an environment. So, basically, people's opinion on lolicon is "this isn't for me, but I don't have to interface with it or the people who enjoy it, so it isn't my business to pass judgement on or pass laws against it". Ergo, the most visible, major push against it IS from foreigners, particularly foreign organizations with interest in Japan. And often, defenders of lolicon will act like that's the only push. They then point to the child abuse scandals of the Catholic Church or of the UN, among other foreign organizations pushing for change in Japan, and then the apparent tolerance from the Japanese public, and say "the only people who find it bad are hypocritical foreigners who actually abuse children and want to take away the peaceful pedophiles' tools to remain non-offending". Which of course is silly, but people who want to say otherwise just don't feel empowered to.
It doesn't help, either, with how Japanese culture views mental illnesses. Mental health understanding is even worse in Japan than it is in the US, if you can believe it. I'm sure we all agree pedophiles need professional help, and can in fact actively change and seek outlets that don't feed into their mental issues. The Japanese viewpoint is that... well, people with mental issues can't help themselves from doing what they do. And while they can't help it, it's also shameful to burden society with mental issues- up to and including doctors. So, if they have an outlet that A) harms no one directly, B) actually costs society LESS than seeking mental help on the taxpayer yen... a lot of the public will accept that outlet. And guess what that supposed "harmless", low-cost outlet is for pedophiles? Lolicon.
This just feeds into the main defense from people who actively support lolicon as opposed to tolerating it: "This actually protects real children as the pedophiles have a consensual fantasy that can't be replicated in reality because kids can't consent. They actively much much prefer this fantasy to real children. They do this rather than seeking out real kids and inherently harming them. So it's treating their pedophilic urges" and also "Attempts by foreigners to ban lolicon is what actually harms real children. This is evidenced by them sexually abusing actual children, including by organizations trying to convince us to ban lolicon". And when you have such a defense actively supported by the way the society handles ANY issue... it's hard to debate with, especially as a foreigner who is dismissed out of hand.
To compound to all of this, the current majority in Japanese government is in fact incredibly conservative and nigh-nationalist. Shinzo Abe is basically Ronald Reagan and Donald Trump fused together and he's been in power for nearly eight years- and his party* has been in power for well over 23 years. To give in to foreign demands to curb lolicon would be seen as a betrayal by their nationalist voterbase. If they won't even listen to Korea to acknowledge war crimes, why would they listen to the UN over something they view as even less of a hot-button issue (especially when the US ignores it as well)? Admittedly, there were rumblings that due to the Olympics the government might have tried to crack down on lolicon, but I haven't seen any indication of them following through. At best, some individual businesses in Tokyo may hide that sort of material away behind the counter.
One might question, of course, why if there are instances of censorship of problematic things in Japanese media- such as decapitations, or genitals in porn- they can't censor sexualization of characters who are visibly minors. And, basically, Japan was a lot more censor-happy when those laws came to fruition. Lolicon didn't really start cropping up en masse in otaku culture until the late 90s- which is AFTER the Liberal Democratic Party* took power from the Social Democratic Party- and didn't truly flourish in non-doujinshi media until the moe boom, which just normalized fetishization of visibly prepubescent-coded girls. When I say fetishization, I don't mean the psychological term for sexualizing the non-sexual. I mean, basically, the non-religious worship definition of fetishization. But, fetishization is fetishization and easily leads to sexualized fetishization, so of course fetishized young girls treated as perfect beings to idolize are going to end up being the subject of pedophilic fantasies. However, I believe if lolicon material cropped up earlier, it would've 100% been censored in some manner. And, on the flipside, no one in the current government wants to be known as "the porn guy" or "the beheading guy", given they are conservatives and all, they aren't touching the other censorship.
So I don't really know what can be done. At best, as foreigners, we can support Japanese people who support progressive parties in Japan, I think, so the public in general can come to view critique of lolicon as coming from Japanese voices with such voices feeling empowered to speak with a government that represents them being in power. Outside of that, realistically, even if we as foreigners completely closed ourselves off from any media that even has the whiff of lolicon in it... it really wouldn't change anything. While a lot of consumption of anime or console games is done by foreigners as opposed to Japanese people, the merch and gacha games- which is the major moneymaker for most of these franchises- is consumed mostly by Japanese people. Hell, gacha in general is more popular than the majority of console or PC games in Japan.
This isn't to say "well, we shouldn't not engage with those things". I certainly don't buy them. Rather, any Western boycott or refusal to buy of those materials won't actually accomplish any material change, as what convinces major content creators to make such content is being financially supported not by foreigners, but by Japanese people. If you think any sort of consumer-based protest can be done, it makes more sense to splurge on merch featuring adult or non-sexualized characters- but even that might not help as much as actually getting involved in politics.
tl;dr - If you think lolicon is a problem, blame Japanese conservatism, and if you want Japan's media output and cultural attitude to change, take an interest in Japanese politics and in supporting progressive Japanese voices.
If anyone more familiar with Japanese modern culture or politics thinks I got anything wrong, do correct me.
*note: Some may notice the ruling party is the Liberal Democratic Party. They are liberal in the "classical liberal" sense that many Republicans claim to be, not any socially progressive sense. Basically, "the market does what it wants, so let it without government interference".
While a lot of Japanese people find lolicon creepy, they also believe it ultimately doesn't harm anyone as no one is harmed in its creation. And given the importance in Japanese culture on not causing problems for others if they aren't disrupting society, nothing gets done. This mindset is only furthered supported by a liberal-conservative government*, and people who disagree not feeling comfortable speaking up in such an environment. So, basically, people's opinion on lolicon is "this isn't for me, but I don't have to interface with it or the people who enjoy it, so it isn't my business to pass judgement on or pass laws against it". Ergo, the most visible, major push against it IS from foreigners, particularly foreign organizations with interest in Japan. And often, defenders of lolicon will act like that's the only push. They then point to the child abuse scandals of the Catholic Church or of the UN, among other foreign organizations pushing for change in Japan, and then the apparent tolerance from the Japanese public, and say "the only people who find it bad are hypocritical foreigners who actually abuse children and want to take away the peaceful pedophiles' tools to remain non-offending". Which of course is silly, but people who want to say otherwise just don't feel empowered to.
It doesn't help, either, with how Japanese culture views mental illnesses. Mental health understanding is even worse in Japan than it is in the US, if you can believe it. I'm sure we all agree pedophiles need professional help, and can in fact actively change and seek outlets that don't feed into their mental issues. The Japanese viewpoint is that... well, people with mental issues can't help themselves from doing what they do. And while they can't help it, it's also shameful to burden society with mental issues- up to and including doctors. So, if they have an outlet that A) harms no one directly, B) actually costs society LESS than seeking mental help on the taxpayer yen... a lot of the public will accept that outlet. And guess what that supposed "harmless", low-cost outlet is for pedophiles? Lolicon.
This just feeds into the main defense from people who actively support lolicon as opposed to tolerating it: "This actually protects real children as the pedophiles have a consensual fantasy that can't be replicated in reality because kids can't consent. They actively much much prefer this fantasy to real children. They do this rather than seeking out real kids and inherently harming them. So it's treating their pedophilic urges" and also "Attempts by foreigners to ban lolicon is what actually harms real children. This is evidenced by them sexually abusing actual children, including by organizations trying to convince us to ban lolicon". And when you have such a defense actively supported by the way the society handles ANY issue... it's hard to debate with, especially as a foreigner who is dismissed out of hand.
To compound to all of this, the current majority in Japanese government is in fact incredibly conservative and nigh-nationalist. Shinzo Abe is basically Ronald Reagan and Donald Trump fused together and he's been in power for nearly eight years- and his party* has been in power for well over 23 years. To give in to foreign demands to curb lolicon would be seen as a betrayal by their nationalist voterbase. If they won't even listen to Korea to acknowledge war crimes, why would they listen to the UN over something they view as even less of a hot-button issue (especially when the US ignores it as well)? Admittedly, there were rumblings that due to the Olympics the government might have tried to crack down on lolicon, but I haven't seen any indication of them following through. At best, some individual businesses in Tokyo may hide that sort of material away behind the counter.
One might question, of course, why if there are instances of censorship of problematic things in Japanese media- such as decapitations, or genitals in porn- they can't censor sexualization of characters who are visibly minors. And, basically, Japan was a lot more censor-happy when those laws came to fruition. Lolicon didn't really start cropping up en masse in otaku culture until the late 90s- which is AFTER the Liberal Democratic Party* took power from the Social Democratic Party- and didn't truly flourish in non-doujinshi media until the moe boom, which just normalized fetishization of visibly prepubescent-coded girls. When I say fetishization, I don't mean the psychological term for sexualizing the non-sexual. I mean, basically, the non-religious worship definition of fetishization. But, fetishization is fetishization and easily leads to sexualized fetishization, so of course fetishized young girls treated as perfect beings to idolize are going to end up being the subject of pedophilic fantasies. However, I believe if lolicon material cropped up earlier, it would've 100% been censored in some manner. And, on the flipside, no one in the current government wants to be known as "the porn guy" or "the beheading guy", given they are conservatives and all, they aren't touching the other censorship.
So I don't really know what can be done. At best, as foreigners, we can support Japanese people who support progressive parties in Japan, I think, so the public in general can come to view critique of lolicon as coming from Japanese voices with such voices feeling empowered to speak with a government that represents them being in power. Outside of that, realistically, even if we as foreigners completely closed ourselves off from any media that even has the whiff of lolicon in it... it really wouldn't change anything. While a lot of consumption of anime or console games is done by foreigners as opposed to Japanese people, the merch and gacha games- which is the major moneymaker for most of these franchises- is consumed mostly by Japanese people. Hell, gacha in general is more popular than the majority of console or PC games in Japan.
This isn't to say "well, we shouldn't not engage with those things". I certainly don't buy them. Rather, any Western boycott or refusal to buy of those materials won't actually accomplish any material change, as what convinces major content creators to make such content is being financially supported not by foreigners, but by Japanese people. If you think any sort of consumer-based protest can be done, it makes more sense to splurge on merch featuring adult or non-sexualized characters- but even that might not help as much as actually getting involved in politics.
tl;dr - If you think lolicon is a problem, blame Japanese conservatism, and if you want Japan's media output and cultural attitude to change, take an interest in Japanese politics and in supporting progressive Japanese voices.
If anyone more familiar with Japanese modern culture or politics thinks I got anything wrong, do correct me.
*note: Some may notice the ruling party is the Liberal Democratic Party. They are liberal in the "classical liberal" sense that many Republicans claim to be, not any socially progressive sense. Basically, "the market does what it wants, so let it without government interference".
This is why you have fanservice and sex jokes in shonen or shoujo media or games like Persona. It's not meant to tittilate adults like lolicon is, it's directed at people the same age as (or in some cases like Kawakami in Persona, Tsunade in Naruto, or Yoruichi in Bleach, younger than) the people being depicted. It's still worth having a discussion and criticism about, as it's still depicting minors in a sexual manner or at least directing sexualized images at minors, but, I do feel like it's closer to the sexualization in CW shows than lolicon both in intent and execution, and has more to do with how we treat teenagers as a worldwide society over a uniquely Japanese problem.
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That's a completely different scenario. The examples given were of media depicting ordinary life in Japan, where apparently it's not unusual for parents to bathe their kids like that.
I still think there are nuances in this conversation that people often overlook. Again, kids see themselves nude and are bathed by their parents, so I'd have to find myself wondering who the audience is and how the scene is presented.
Are we supposed to stop pedophilia from being normalized or are we supposed to teach kids that their bodies are vulgar? I think it's important to consider; our society tends to have the idea that wherever there's a kid, there are a horde of unknown pedophiles lying in the shadow ready to strike. It does happen, but it can also be a distraction or more high risk people and concerns.
On top of that, I wonder if a certain amount of racism doesn't come into place. Like, I vaguely remember rewatching the Powerpuff Girls and being surprised that there was a bathing scene in one episode or another, especially since one of the distinctive things about the show was that it wasn't actually oriented for little girls as the merchandise was marketed towards. But I've never heard that come up even though I've heard people bring up, say, a prison rape joke hidden in an episode. Maybe because we assume differently of it than we'd assume for an anime; we're more inclined to assume automatically that the audience is more dangerous.
My general inclination is that if you're intent on curbing pedophilia in anime, the targets that should be high on the list are things like light novels that deliberately cater to that and are for an exclusively older audience rather than young kids shows that may be watched be watched by a creepy adult.
I remember there were folks on the old site who would defend loli games by saying "well I'm not a pedophile BUT this game is the only thing keeping real pedophiles from molesting real children"
And I'm like dude...if you're playing a game that's serving as a sexual release for pedophiles...
And I'm like dude...if you're playing a game that's serving as a sexual release for pedophiles...
This is probably the boring "closest to reality" take on the situation. The problem is why the heck is this really creepy content so damn prolific in japan???
OP
OP
Actually, there are apparently two different kinds of "loli" in Japan.
First is "loli-con" (frequently shortened to loli), which gets it's name from "Lolita Complex". This is the one that this thread is talking about.
The second is "goth-loli" (also frequently shortened to loli), which gets it's name from "Gothic Lolita", and is a girls fashion style based on Victorian England. And it has absolutely nothing to do with pedos. Nor does it have anything to do with American all-black "goth" fashion, BTW, although they probably share the same "gothic" roots.
It gets confusing because both of them call themselves "loli". Goth-loli characters are a standard trope, so quite a few times in anime and manga I've seen them get referred to as "loli", and I give it a side-eye because there doesn't seem to be any sort of sexualization going on, but... did the characters just say that overdressed character was sexualized? And the answer is no, they didn't. It's a goth-loli. They're just using the same word.
Once you know to look for it, you're probably going to start seeing it. Girl characters in fancy-frilly English clothes getting referred to as "lolis".
(Which is not to say that perverts can't make loli-con with goth-lolis. I'm sure they can and have.)
It's actually not all that distinct. The name comes from the same place, and it refers to the clothing having a deliberate childish quality to it, like a young girl would wear in Victorian England. Granted, it's a fashion trend, so there are different forms of them - gothic lolita isn't the only one, just the most recognizable (and maybe the most popular but I don't really know anything about that)
So you seem knowledgeable about all this, what has the effect of having pretty much open market of Lolicon/Shotacon have on Japanese society since it's not regulated at all?
For people who think this is not harmful to real children, we've seen time and time again throughout human history that people who get a dopamine thrill from any stimulus will eventually become desensitized to it and may seek out more and more extreme forms of whatever gave them the dopamine "hit".
Just today we have this thread about how being exposed to things makes you more likely to buy into them and seek out more, so I absolutely believe there is a path from seeing lolicon to liking lolicon to liking child pornography and even possibly acting on those urges in real life.
I'm not claiming that every person who sees lolicon is going to go down that path, but it is probably a higher number than most people want to admit, especially those that believe that things like anime and games going hardcore into many kinds of extreme sexual fetishization is the only reason those media formats still exist profitability enough for them to get made at all. To them, anime without disgusting sexual objectification would mean the medium would not exist... and to that I say, if anime can't "make it" without those things, it doesn't deserve to exist.
Just today we have this thread about how being exposed to things makes you more likely to buy into them and seek out more, so I absolutely believe there is a path from seeing lolicon to liking lolicon to liking child pornography and even possibly acting on those urges in real life.
I'm not claiming that every person who sees lolicon is going to go down that path, but it is probably a higher number than most people want to admit, especially those that believe that things like anime and games going hardcore into many kinds of extreme sexual fetishization is the only reason those media formats still exist profitability enough for them to get made at all. To them, anime without disgusting sexual objectification would mean the medium would not exist... and to that I say, if anime can't "make it" without those things, it doesn't deserve to exist.
That I'm admittedly less sure about, and I apologize if that's unsatisfactory. As I pointed out, it's still very much a niche thing that's more "tolerated" than "welcomed". I do feel like, should it become more normalized, it may influence Japanese culture in more unsavory ways, such as normalization of the sexualization of children in general and not just the sexualization of fictitious children. After all, Japan only very recently actually outlawed real child porn, and how frequently lolicon is used may be a result of that going unchecked. But for now I view it more as a problematic aspect of society that is allowed due to the current government of Japan being as it is and causing other problems as well.
The thing is- it's really not all that prolific. It's just the media that we get exposed to is the media that has these problematic aspects. There's a bunch of anime that localizers (whether official or fansubbers) don't touch that's devoid of this stuff (admittedly, mostly kid or family friendly shows), and J-drama and J-comedy has basically no western marketshare. It's certainly MORE prolific when you compare it to other cultures' media outputs, but in the grand scheme of Japanese media it's still niche. A problematic niche that is without question influencing things outside of its niche due to the spending power of both lolicon and moe otaku. But a niche.
That, incidentally, may somewhat also give another answer to Blackage's query: That it'll influence other media to be more similar even if the creator didn't initially want it to be, as it'll help drive sales of merchandise. This hampers artistic integrity.
Now if you're asking how there's a market, well, someone earlier mentioned Rei and Evangelion, and I imagine that's a big part of it. You have EVA unintentionally tap into this market of people attracted to a 14 year old who previously kept to doujinshi (when it intended to in fact satirize the subculture of otaku fetishizing women characters), so when the anime market started to falter, creators start pandering to this market with spending power to stay afloat. And then with the moe boom, basically half of the characters in shows these days look like the lolis of yesterday, even if adults. As much as I hate to say it, moe culture and lolicon culture are very much intertwined and I'm unsure if it's possible for the two to not be.
As an aside, thankfully there's a good number of shows each season that don't pander to either the moe or lolicon crowd, but they are rarely the big shows of the season among most of the English speaking anime community. You have to dig to find them, even if they are localized, because, well, they don't make money via merch sales, so companies don't want to push them, even if there are at times as many of them as there are problematic shows. Hence why they're not popular. Advertisement works folks.
And if you're asking why there's a market at all... One article I read featured a professor- Masahiro Morioka- who is self-admittedly a lolicon and acknowledges it's problematic and pedophilic. He believes the reason he and others enjoy lolicon is not due to pedophilia itself, but instead partially due to repressed sexuality and the inablity to express one's feminine side. He noticed the start of his lolicon desires arose sometime at the height of his puberty when he found distaste at growing facial hair, becoming more muscular, and developing masculine facial features, and truly took off when he lost notable contact with his mother who was the only real woman in his life. He says he enjoys lolicon because it allows him to re-experience youth by inserting himself into the place of these girls. And he felt that if men were able to more freely express their sexuality and how they view themselves without being shunned, they'd feel less compelled to express it in problematic ways, such as lolicon.
And I mean, it's a theory that makes SOME sense, when you consider two aspects Japanese culture: the traditional value of youth and beauty, and the imported repression of sexuality outside of a very patriarchal, heteronormative viewpoint.
Youth and beauty are both highly prized, individually and together. One of Japan's national heroes, Minamoto no Yoshitsune, was described as a child prodigy, and only lived into his 30s, and often is emphasized in war tales as being androgynous for his whole life. And most folktales involve young or beautiful (or both) people in some way. And Japanese women often find bearded or overly muscular men unattractive - western concepts of masculinity are just not desired. This worship of youth and beauty is most likely due to Shinto beliefs, and how while it's true old people are venerable and wise... they're also really close to death, and thus really close to dying and their bodies becoming instantly impure.
Further, public displays and conversation of romance or sexuality are frowned upon. You can't even hold hands with or kiss your partner without getting dirty stares. Sure, enjoy all the depraved, kinky porn you can get in private. But shut up about sexuality or romance at all in public. This of course can be linked back to the American occupation of Japan and further back to Japan's fascist stage. Both 40s/50s Protestant America and fascism alike frown upon any mention of sexuality outside of missionary, clothes on, married-for-procreation sex. And Japan just really hasn't changed since then, due to its reticence to change because it's too much effort and causes problems. So people express their sexual urges in problematic ways in private, as over time they have become desensitized to less problematic sexuality as sexuality in general is thought of as taboo, so they associate their sexual urges with being inherently taboo.
The next two paragraphs are my own theorizing and drawing parallels here, but... You can perhaps find a precursor to the phenomenon of lolicon's appeal, as described by Morioka, as being a way in which repressed men could express their non-harmful desire in harmful ways in the early to mid Edo period through wakashudo. While not as stunted as pre-modern and modern Japanese sexuality, the Edo bakufu encouraged a rigid idea of masculinity over all and repressed the idea of femininity or androgyny being acceptable for men and the idea of sexuality being acceptable for public consumption. This was a sharp contrast to previous Japanese customs, and an attempt to incorporate even more Confucian ideals than had already been utilized. This was reflected by previously androgynous cultural heroes now being depicted as much more masculine.
But the lolicon-precursor result of this (well, a result should Morioka's theory hold true), you saw many men engaging in aforementioned wakashudo- pederastic relationships with prepubescent boys and young teen boys. This was considered acceptable as it wasn't men giving into their lust for women (showed weakness), nor grown men choosing to display themselves as feminine or a bottom (also showed weakness), nor women expressing sexuality at all (because it was a Confucian, patriarchal society). Wakashudo was practiced before the Edo period, but often with partners around the same age, and lasted into old age. In the Edo period, it was pretty much exclusively with men 30+ with boys under 15, with the men changing out their boy when they became adults around 15~17. Late Edo Japan began to ease up on Confucian ideals a bit, and as a result wakashudo began to die out. But then Matthew Perry's black ships came, along with a new, non-Confucian brand of patriarchy- Western-style Imperialism. While this killed off wakashudo due to homosexuality being considered bad, it didn't kill that desire for youth nor the belief that men cannot be feminine.
But even if it makes sense, don't get me wrong: I don't feel it's an excuse. Lolicon is problematic, and even it's a result of men feeling shamed into liking more and more taboo things, it shouldn't be indulged due to the visible impact it's having on other media and the potential impact it has on the safety of real children. But it's sadly something that also can't be cured by societal change unless, again, progressive politicians are elected to replace the LDP and thus enable progressive voices to speak up without fear of social reprisal. Under the current government, there can be no major societal shifts, because the market demands there be none, and to the LDP, the free market comes first, nationalism second, everything else a far third.
Of course, this doesn't explain everything perfectly- there's still a good amount of Japanese media that features adult men who are androgynous or feminine who men could look to in order to idolize, for instance, instead of little girls (of course part of that may be structural, subconscious homophobia)- but it does explain how a combination of different issues can combine into one singular, truly problematic one.
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To summarize or tl;dr: The reason Japan's got really fucking bad cultural sexual psychosis that manifests in problematic, creepy ways is most likely due to their long-standing cultural beliefs clashing with outside beliefs on sexuality and gender roles which their conservatives follow to be "modern" and "good". Said conservatives simultaneously do not want to upset the market forces they so worship if it's not in direct opposition to their continued structural power, which lolicon isn't. Under such a system, leftists and progressives feel too throttled to try to break free, and so become complacent, and thus there's no real Japanese pushback against lolicon in any major way.
Again, I know I sound like a know it all. But if anyone more knowledgeable thinks anything I'm saying is bullshit, please, call me out on it or correct me. But this is what I think I know to be true based on what I've studied about Japanese culture in college and my free time.
Also apologies if I went on too long again. I just feel like if we want to change things, and not just complain about them, we need to understand them.
Even just within Japanese borders, I think it's part of a larger phenomenon that existed long before Neon Genesis Evangelion. For a quick example, there's Elpeo Ple from ZZ Gundam (1986), who was apparently named after the Lemon People magazine that ran from 1982 to 1998. That's almost a decade before NGE.
I'd also question the argument that Evangelion was trying to make a satire out of it. Take one look at contemporary NGE merchandise , plus the history of Gainax as an actual company, and that notion should disappear. It clearly popularized one particular set of personality archetypes, yes, but fans feeling "moe" over characters (with all of the half-protective and half-fetishized implications of the term) wasn't exactly a new thing at the time.
It's absolutely true there were examples before NGE, but to my knowledge, it wasn't particularly widespread until after NGE. I'm thinking back on older anime and I can't think of too many young girls that were actively sexualized as opposed to just being popular characters who happened to be young.
And, well, it's true Gainax merchandised the hell out of it, but IIRC Anno has gone on record many a time saying he's disappointed no one got what he was going for and that people bought up the merch.
I'm gonna call this out. There's a TON of stuff that doesn't get localized that is full of lolicon stuff. If you ever browse bookstores in Japan or go to Akihabara and literally just look around, you'll see that there's WAY more than what we see in the west.
I think this is a lot of historical rationalizing of something that could easily be explained as "dudes get turned on by depictions of youthful naive-looking girls". It's a culture rife with extreme misogyny and patriarchy. Sometimes a spade is just a spade.
She Broke Japan’s Silence on Rape (Published 2017)
She was a news intern. He was a TV journalist. She says he raped her, and she decided to do something Japanese women rarely do: Speak out.
"On paper, Japan boasts relatively low rates of sexual assault. In a survey conducted by the Cabinet Office of the central government in 2014, one in 15 women reported experiencing rape at some time in their lives, compared with one in five women who report having been raped in the United States.
But scholars say Japanese women are far less likely to describe nonconsensual sex as rape than women in the West. Japan's rape laws make no mention of consent, date rape is essentially a foreign concept and education about sexual violence is minimal.
Instead, rape is often depicted in manga comics and pornography as an extension of sexual gratification, in a culture in which such material is often an important channel of sex education.
The police and courts tend to define rape narrowly, generally pursuing cases only when there are signs of both physical force and self-defense and discouraging complaints when either the assailant or victim has been drinking."
"Her hesitation is typical. Many Japanese women who have been assaulted "blame themselves, saying, 'Oh, it's probably my fault,'" said Tamie Kaino, a professor emeritus of gender studies at Ochanomizu University.
Hisako Tanabe, a rape counselor at the Sexual Assault Relief Center in Tokyo, said that even women who call their hotline and are advised to go to the police often refuse, because they do not expect the police to believe them.
"They think they will be told they did something wrong," she said.
Ms. Ito said she felt ashamed and considered keeping quiet too, wondering if tolerating such treatment was necessary to succeed in Japan's male-dominated media industry. But she decided to go to the police five days after the encounter.
"If I don't face the truth," she recalled thinking, "I think I won't be able to work as a journalist."
The police officers she spoke to initially discouraged her from filing a complaint and expressed doubt about her story because she was not crying as she told it, she said. Some added that Mr. Yamaguchi's status would make it difficult for her to pursue the case, she said."
I've only got through the first page and I just had to respond: My Hero Academia is considered loli?
I hope not. If enjoying a story about teens going through the awkward phases of puberty makes you a lolicon then RIP everyone.
I hope not. If enjoying a story about teens going through the awkward phases of puberty makes you a lolicon then RIP everyone.
It goes back as far as Miyazaki's Castle of Cagliostro (1979), in which the protagonist, Lupin, "steals" a young girl to save her from a forced marriage. This spawned derivative erotica of the character as far back as then, so I wouldn't regard it as a '90s phenomenon. Maybe it boomed with Evangelion, but that has more to do with popularizing Japanese subculture in general. Evangelion was/is just a very visible gateway.
In the '80s came shows like Tokimeki Tonight and Creamy Mami that targeted girls as their audiences, but there are some sketchy qualities to them. These are more deeper examples of where this all started, industry-wise. By the way, I agree with the assessment that these inclinations aren't all that popular natively as it seems to the foreign eye.
In the '80s came shows like Tokimeki Tonight and Creamy Mami that targeted girls as their audiences, but there are some sketchy qualities to them. These are more deeper examples of where this all started, industry-wise. By the way, I agree with the assessment that these inclinations aren't all that popular natively as it seems to the foreign eye.
Wikipedia's article on Cagliostro said:
Only by people who have no idea what they are talking about.
To clarify, in case it wasn't clear enough already, this is the definition of the term lolicon from the 研究社新和英大辞典, which is a very good dictionary:
This is describing pedophilia, plain and simple. J->J dictionaries describe it in a similar manner as well (using the term youjo/幼女, which is for very young girls).
It's disturbing how common the terms are in the anime community.
研究社新和英大辞典第5版 said:
This is describing pedophilia, plain and simple. J->J dictionaries describe it in a similar manner as well (using the term youjo/幼女, which is for very young girls).
It's disturbing how common the terms are in the anime community.
So I've been reading this thread from the start, and it's been quiet the fasinating ride.
A few things that need to be added, in regard to the fashion Lolita aspect, most of the ideas come from and were heavily influenced in the 1970s by the likes of Sanrio and manga such as RoV, where the Rocco and Victorian and Edwardian look came into play to give the image of the characters more of a dream like feeling like something out of a fairy tale. Later day Lolita's started to pull from various other works of manga, and Visual Kei bands, and even the Takarazuka being a all female theater group that had the romantic aspect going for their stage production with extremely detailed and fancy costumes. Also Alice and wonderland and other Victorian novels of that era seems to be a huge inspiration for it. Lolita fashion is based around being cute and pretty and feeling innocent or princess like, danity even.
Regarding NGE, it's not a lolicon show, doesn't qualify because while Rei does have some of the aspects to her, she's not even close to being a 10 year old like character. She's more of the "Perfect wife" trope that was prevelent for a long while in manga that some authors hated and broke (Diamond is Unbreakable was one of them at the time).
I should note that there has been a slight change in how people in Japan are treating some of this. There's been a recent uptick in women actually being more active against harrassment and younger girls actively attacking or reporting gropers on the trains, so it's becoming more frowned upon as more people are starting to speak up about it. Though again as Mewshuji pointed out the culture makes it harder to voice things.
Gintama did an entire episode about the issue with otaku and while it was only a small part of the over all manga arc, there was a moment where one of the lead characters actually gets possessed by the ghost of a otaku who is into 2D girls, and there's a bit where he's with other 2D fans who are arguing against Idol fans about if it's okay to have a 2D girlfriend, and it turns in to a comedic brawl on stage. I do think that sort of shows how people tend to view this, fans of the Loli type stuff are looked down upon or, as with Gintama, they're a source for comedy in that people laugh at them for their obession.
One thing I don't think has been touched upon yet, and I find it interesting, is the idea of Shotacon. While I don't think it's as prevelent or known about here in the west, there's a trope for it where you have a (sometimes older male) older girl (typically highschool age) being hit on, or having a romantic attachement to a younger boy. Off the top of my head a bunch of these are more shojo stories than your typical Lolicon like situations, but they still can fall under the strange factor.
For example: Muripuri, which was done by the author of Vampire Knight, covers the idea of a 16 year old girl who finds a boy from another world (he's 10 or 11) who's the prince there and he falls in love with her and tries to get her to love him back. The two eventually do get together in the end when she travels to his world to find him, and they agree to wait till he's 17 or 18 to get married and she's like 21 or 22 at the time. Then there's the whole story of the 16 year old girl who's 10 year old cousin keeps trying to break up her relationship with her crush because he wants to be with her. Then you have the one where the there's this poor girl who's dad died when she's 15 and she ends up being saved by this boy who is ten but ends up being her future husband whom she's been betrothed too. Another was one where the character is actually a demon who is a lot older than he looks (He looks 11 or 12 ish) who meets a 17 year old girl who ends up hooking up with him later in the story.
Additionally Detective Loki Ragnarok has it where the young Loki (who is the god) falls in love with the girl that helps him do his investigating (she's the reincarnation of his wife Sigyn) and he looks like he's 10 or 11, there's the story where the 15 year old girl who looks like she's 13 or so ends up meeting up with a boy who looks a lot older and he turns out to be the son of the land lord, who is in fifth grade (10) and their budding Romance (along with his other friends who also look older than their age) and a rather not so great anime was made of it. There's the one where there's a young king who's 14 get's a 16 year old girl to be his wife and their relationship. There's one that's a bit like Marmalade Boy where the teenage daughter meets with her step brother who's like 12, and he looks older and she thinks he's in high school with her and he's actually in his late year of elementary school, and has a crush on her. In addition there's usually a shota type route in visual novels.
This is not to mention the whole thing with Ken in Persona 3 Portable, where when you play as the girl, Atlus USA had to change the dialogue and over haul it because Ken and the Fem Protag ended up having an romantic relationship if you went down his route and he said when he graduates from High school he would marry her. They turned it into a friend route. And of course there's the issue of Yaoi and Yuri in regard to this as well where the young boy is in a realtionship much like how a young girl is used in the lolicon aspect. Not to mention the fact that there's an actual convention for Shotacon where they have had a 1000 people show up and 200 doshinji circles.
The thing is I don't know if people see it as problmatic as the lolicon thing. Which is strange because you would think that it would be complained about just as much, but again, because it's a boy it's not looked as badly upon. Also you have to think given the issue of the whole Older woman younger man thing in some western media being hailed by some people, including the whole teacher and student thing (I was pleasently suprised that Riverdale dropped that whole Archie and Ms. Grundey thing given that the same writer did the same plot line for Dawson's creek years ago with Pacey and his English teacher and no one back then batted an eyelash but there was a loud rebuffing this time around), and not as many seem to call it out when it happens, see the recent Stranger Things season where one of the moms was hitting on the 17 year old life guard and how in some teen comedies the teen boy bangs the mom of one of his friends. Also Stacey's Mom song. It's just creepy.
Regarding the additonal issues with lolicon, it doesn't just have to be seen as characters on a show.The Yakuza and other groups actually have magazines and videos of little kids that will wear outfits and such and that sells too. I don't know how prolific it is, but at some point I know that they were selling magazines like that on actual racks with other magazines in stores.
Can it be curbed, it all depends on if Japanese society gets sick of it and starts to crack down more on it. Moe, while still big, isn't as big as it was a few years back. So there's some change going on over there, but as with a lot of things in Japan, it takes a long time.
A few things that need to be added, in regard to the fashion Lolita aspect, most of the ideas come from and were heavily influenced in the 1970s by the likes of Sanrio and manga such as RoV, where the Rocco and Victorian and Edwardian look came into play to give the image of the characters more of a dream like feeling like something out of a fairy tale. Later day Lolita's started to pull from various other works of manga, and Visual Kei bands, and even the Takarazuka being a all female theater group that had the romantic aspect going for their stage production with extremely detailed and fancy costumes. Also Alice and wonderland and other Victorian novels of that era seems to be a huge inspiration for it. Lolita fashion is based around being cute and pretty and feeling innocent or princess like, danity even.
Regarding NGE, it's not a lolicon show, doesn't qualify because while Rei does have some of the aspects to her, she's not even close to being a 10 year old like character. She's more of the "Perfect wife" trope that was prevelent for a long while in manga that some authors hated and broke (Diamond is Unbreakable was one of them at the time).
I should note that there has been a slight change in how people in Japan are treating some of this. There's been a recent uptick in women actually being more active against harrassment and younger girls actively attacking or reporting gropers on the trains, so it's becoming more frowned upon as more people are starting to speak up about it. Though again as Mewshuji pointed out the culture makes it harder to voice things.
Gintama did an entire episode about the issue with otaku and while it was only a small part of the over all manga arc, there was a moment where one of the lead characters actually gets possessed by the ghost of a otaku who is into 2D girls, and there's a bit where he's with other 2D fans who are arguing against Idol fans about if it's okay to have a 2D girlfriend, and it turns in to a comedic brawl on stage. I do think that sort of shows how people tend to view this, fans of the Loli type stuff are looked down upon or, as with Gintama, they're a source for comedy in that people laugh at them for their obession.
One thing I don't think has been touched upon yet, and I find it interesting, is the idea of Shotacon. While I don't think it's as prevelent or known about here in the west, there's a trope for it where you have a (sometimes older male) older girl (typically highschool age) being hit on, or having a romantic attachement to a younger boy. Off the top of my head a bunch of these are more shojo stories than your typical Lolicon like situations, but they still can fall under the strange factor.
For example: Muripuri, which was done by the author of Vampire Knight, covers the idea of a 16 year old girl who finds a boy from another world (he's 10 or 11) who's the prince there and he falls in love with her and tries to get her to love him back. The two eventually do get together in the end when she travels to his world to find him, and they agree to wait till he's 17 or 18 to get married and she's like 21 or 22 at the time. Then there's the whole story of the 16 year old girl who's 10 year old cousin keeps trying to break up her relationship with her crush because he wants to be with her. Then you have the one where the there's this poor girl who's dad died when she's 15 and she ends up being saved by this boy who is ten but ends up being her future husband whom she's been betrothed too. Another was one where the character is actually a demon who is a lot older than he looks (He looks 11 or 12 ish) who meets a 17 year old girl who ends up hooking up with him later in the story.
Additionally Detective Loki Ragnarok has it where the young Loki (who is the god) falls in love with the girl that helps him do his investigating (she's the reincarnation of his wife Sigyn) and he looks like he's 10 or 11, there's the story where the 15 year old girl who looks like she's 13 or so ends up meeting up with a boy who looks a lot older and he turns out to be the son of the land lord, who is in fifth grade (10) and their budding Romance (along with his other friends who also look older than their age) and a rather not so great anime was made of it. There's the one where there's a young king who's 14 get's a 16 year old girl to be his wife and their relationship. There's one that's a bit like Marmalade Boy where the teenage daughter meets with her step brother who's like 12, and he looks older and she thinks he's in high school with her and he's actually in his late year of elementary school, and has a crush on her. In addition there's usually a shota type route in visual novels.
This is not to mention the whole thing with Ken in Persona 3 Portable, where when you play as the girl, Atlus USA had to change the dialogue and over haul it because Ken and the Fem Protag ended up having an romantic relationship if you went down his route and he said when he graduates from High school he would marry her. They turned it into a friend route. And of course there's the issue of Yaoi and Yuri in regard to this as well where the young boy is in a realtionship much like how a young girl is used in the lolicon aspect. Not to mention the fact that there's an actual convention for Shotacon where they have had a 1000 people show up and 200 doshinji circles.
The thing is I don't know if people see it as problmatic as the lolicon thing. Which is strange because you would think that it would be complained about just as much, but again, because it's a boy it's not looked as badly upon. Also you have to think given the issue of the whole Older woman younger man thing in some western media being hailed by some people, including the whole teacher and student thing (I was pleasently suprised that Riverdale dropped that whole Archie and Ms. Grundey thing given that the same writer did the same plot line for Dawson's creek years ago with Pacey and his English teacher and no one back then batted an eyelash but there was a loud rebuffing this time around), and not as many seem to call it out when it happens, see the recent Stranger Things season where one of the moms was hitting on the 17 year old life guard and how in some teen comedies the teen boy bangs the mom of one of his friends. Also Stacey's Mom song. It's just creepy.
Regarding the additonal issues with lolicon, it doesn't just have to be seen as characters on a show.The Yakuza and other groups actually have magazines and videos of little kids that will wear outfits and such and that sells too. I don't know how prolific it is, but at some point I know that they were selling magazines like that on actual racks with other magazines in stores.
Can it be curbed, it all depends on if Japanese society gets sick of it and starts to crack down more on it. Moe, while still big, isn't as big as it was a few years back. So there's some change going on over there, but as with a lot of things in Japan, it takes a long time.
Are you talking about the age gaps in the story? Like Shigurie and
Akito
Kureno
I mean, Shirgure is 26 while said other character is 20, and Arisa is 16 going on 17 and her love insterst is 23. Of course you have Tohru's mom and dad who had a gap but he was only 21 when they met and she was in her last year of middle school so 15 at the time.
I suppose Momiji or Kisa and Hiro, but Kisa and Hiro are both kids that have crushes on one another, and Momiji is 15.
The only thing I can think of is that the Author really likes Age gap romances. And some of her other works have that, but other than that, I don't know where the lolicon aspect could come in this case? All the characters are teens that go from 15 to 17 (18 by the time of graduation for the main group of 5 -Tohru, Yuki, Kyo, Arisa, and Saki) by the end of the manga, and all other characters that are younger are shown to be treated by these characters as siblings or the kids that they are. Again closest thing would be Kyoko and her husband Katsuya, but for the main characters no one was treated as a loli, unless you're thinking of Ayame's weird fashion things but that's a whole nother issues not connected to this.
You're not wrong. The inverse is true too, though. There's a shitton of manga of all stripes that just doesn't ever get translated. I'm just saying that we don't see the actual full purview of manga that's available, so it seems more prevalent than it is. That's not to say it isn't prevalent, it certainly is, elsewise we wouldn't be having this discussion. There's just a lot of manga on general, lol.
Obviously, we should try to stop sexual assault and curb any media that normalizes it. But I feel like merely seeing a societal problem and trying to stop it without knowing the root cause and how to solve that root cause will either lead to worse problems or just cause the problem to arise again later. This has been historically proven many times. Ergo, while important to talk about, I don't think the article you posted contradicts anything I said. Yes, Japan is a deeply patriarchal, misogynistic society. But it wasn't always. There was a time, in fact, when it was matriarchal. So, how can Japanese people fix that?I think this is a lot of historical rationalizing of something that could easily be explained as "dudes get turned on by depictions of youthful naive-looking girls". It's a culture rife with extreme misogyny and patriarchy. Sometimes a spade is just a spade.
She Broke Japan’s Silence on Rape (Published 2017)
She was a news intern. He was a TV journalist. She says he raped her, and she decided to do something Japanese women rarely do: Speak out.www.nytimes.com
"On paper, Japan boasts relatively low rates of sexual assault. In a survey conducted by the Cabinet Office of the central government in 2014, one in 15 women reported experiencing rape at some time in their lives, compared with one in five women who report having been raped in the United States.
But scholars say Japanese women are far less likely to describe nonconsensual sex as rape than women in the West. Japan's rape laws make no mention of consent, date rape is essentially a foreign concept and education about sexual violence is minimal.
Instead, rape is often depicted in manga comics and pornography as an extension of sexual gratification, in a culture in which such material is often an important channel of sex education.
The police and courts tend to define rape narrowly, generally pursuing cases only when there are signs of both physical force and self-defense and discouraging complaints when either the assailant or victim has been drinking."
"Her hesitation is typical. Many Japanese women who have been assaulted "blame themselves, saying, 'Oh, it's probably my fault,'" said Tamie Kaino, a professor emeritus of gender studies at Ochanomizu University.
Hisako Tanabe, a rape counselor at the Sexual Assault Relief Center in Tokyo, said that even women who call their hotline and are advised to go to the police often refuse, because they do not expect the police to believe them.
"They think they will be told they did something wrong," she said.
Ms. Ito said she felt ashamed and considered keeping quiet too, wondering if tolerating such treatment was necessary to succeed in Japan's male-dominated media industry. But she decided to go to the police five days after the encounter.
"If I don't face the truth," she recalled thinking, "I think I won't be able to work as a journalist."
The police officers she spoke to initially discouraged her from filing a complaint and expressed doubt about her story because she was not crying as she told it, she said. Some added that Mr. Yamaguchi's status would make it difficult for her to pursue the case, she said."
Interesting. You have a good point with Creamy Mami and all. I wonder, then, why this sort of thing wasn't targeted in the same way hyperviolence was. I still suspect it wasn't as prevalent but I do concede it goes back further.
I'm talking about Tohru's parents. Kyoko was only 15/16 when she got married to Katsuya. There's even a line where after he kisses her she asks, 'are you paedophile?' and first he says "where did you hear that word?" and second "it's your fault for being born late", which sounds all romantic when you're reading it as a young teen but rings alarm bells for me nowadays.
This is an argument path I wouldn't take; it's basically the exact same claim people have been making for decades about violent video games making people seek to eventually become violent in real life. There are plenty of great reasons and arguments for why loli content in anime/manga is bad and needs to stop (or at least be dramatically reduced) but this isn't one of them.
WTF that seems like a whole different monster of a problem. That's horrible :(
On a related SNK note, don't ever try looking for Last Blade fanart. Like 90% is stuff for Akari (8 yo character) in very suggestive "don't worry it's not TECHNICALLY porn" stuff. *shudders*
Is that from the original Tokyo Pop translation, a scan or the new translation because I can't recall. And yes it's a bit on the nose right now, but again, Author is into Age Gap romances, so I think to her it counts as romantic.
Then again Japan has a history of younger bride older husband, much in the same vain that in the west we had something similar in Europe in the upper aristocrats where they married with an older man and a younger woman. It's more prevelent in Japan due to the culture, namely the idea that after Highschool life becomes dull and unfun. This coming from the whole Salary man idea after the war.
Bear in mind the idea of a "child bride" isn't something that just cropped up in Japan and in Asian countries either. Go back to the Tales of Genji and one of the lead stories was of a man marrying a girl he raised for that purpose. I can point to the whole Great Expectations and Bleak House by Charles Dickens, where in the former the lead character's father (or adoptive father or some relation I can't remember) marries his friend who is his age and while she's an adult at the time of their marriage, she was a child and was raised with his son when we first meet her. In Bleak house the guardian of one of the lead character's also marries his ward when she's of age.
I can also point to the Shojo series Bunny Drop, again written by a lady, who has the ending where the lead end up with the very little girl that he raises from when she's 5 or six. He's in his early to mid twenties when the story starts. What's intersting is all media adaptations of the story took out the ending and ends in the first act where the young man and the girl are just like father and daughter in the end. So the idea of the child becoming the lover to the parent isn't exactly a "Horray" celebrated thing. Most readers in Japan were none too pleased with the ending and did rant about it back when it came out as I've read.
I think it's very reasonable to argue that different types of representation in media have different impacts on real life phenomena. Murder is very obviously bad and something that most people will not encounter or relate to, whereas sexual attraction is very relatable and common. So it could be argued that bad representations of sexual attraction are much more likely to incentivize bad behavior in real life. I don't know of a study that shows this, but it's reasonable enough that we shouldn't immediately throw it in the same bucket as violent video games.
edit: a quick google scholar search shows that there are many studies that argue for a link between sexualization in media and its real life impacts. So your argument doesn't hold a lot of water.
It's from the Chuang Yi translation for Australasia.
Whilst I don't like the romance between Kyoko and Katsuya I do like that we get a story about a teen mum trying to bring up her child as best she can on her own. Now that's something rare in manga/anime.
I dig a good scholarly article, if you wouldn't mind linking the sources I'd love to read them.
My google fu is getting similar results but they mainly speak to sexual objectification in media as a whole (which is definitely part of the equation but not the whole pie).
Hmm, I think you'd be surprised by the number of people who have had violent or murderous thought flash throw their head only to disregard those thought and not act of them for obvious reasons, same with sexual thoughts. I don't think any studies show a correlation outside of one's funded by special interest groups because it's a very difficult thing to prove. Just as people have long argued that violent games don't make people violent so much as draw people who already have those tendencies anyway, the same could be argued here. It may be that, rather than making people into lolicons etc, perhaps there were already this great a number of them in the world and anime/manga catering to this audience has simply revealed them to us.
Linked some articles below (though I don't understand what you mean by your second sentence, isn't that what we're talking about?)
I mean, a very basic search finds dozens if not hundreds of relevant studies. Many of which are from respectable journals. 109 different journals, in fact. I don't know why you're throwing around claims that can be easily refuted and are making me do your homework, but...
"A total of 109 publications that contained 135 studies were reviewed. The findings provided consistent evidence that both laboratory exposure and regular, everyday exposure to this content are directly associated with a range of consequences, including higher levels of body dissatisfaction, greater self-objectification, greater support of sexist beliefs and of adversarial sexual beliefs, and greater tolerance of sexual violence toward women. Moreover, experimental exposure to this content leads both women and men to have a diminished view of women's competence, morality, and humanity."
Literally 135 studies on the subject were reviewed and most of them found that there is a negative impact correlated with sexualization. You can find the studies in the "citations" section. I can't believe you're making such an authoritative claim that is so obviously wrong and so easily debunked.
The video was a pretty standard showcase video with no weird editing or anything so I was just wondering why it explicitly said it was focused on Nakaruru until I remembered what the "ryona" in the title meant. I had been thinking maybe it was just someone who is annoyed that Nakaruru gets more attention than other Samurai Shodown characters but nope.
That's part of the weird thing. If it wasn't explicitly labelled as a fetish video I'd have no idea.
Actually, looking it up now, it seems like "ryona" is specifically a fetish with a female victim, and it's reverse ryona if the victim is a guy. I guess like how it's reverse racism if it's against white people and normal everyday regular racism if it's white people doing it.
Unfortunately I can't read the full report due to the paywall, but it's hard for me to definitely conclude that this headline relates to this specific topic because I am not sure what type of sexualization is being examined in these studies and if my favorite YouTuber Shaun is anything to go by it's worth knowing the full details. In other words, when this study refers to sexualization are they talking about adults or younger? Consensual or non consensual? Are they referring to outfit design, or whether sexual trauma is treated as a plot device? (Looking at you, GoT). Drawing conclusions from a headline like the one you quoted is a bit broad.
I do apologize if I came off as "authorative" as that was not the intent.
It covers a variety of topics. Like I said, you can click "citations" to see the studies that have been analyzed, many of them have descriptive titles that mention what type of media or impact they're looking at. You can look up the abstracts of those studies and they will contain descriptions of their analyses and findings. Here are some examples:
A Short-Term Longitudinal Exploration of the Impact of TV Exposure on Objectifying Attitudes Toward Women in Early Adolescent Boys
The present study aimed to examine the relationships over time between television viewing (music and tween TV) and boys' endorsement of sexualized gender roles, that is, views of women as sex objects and men as sexually dominant, as well as a tendency to objectify women's bodies. As an additional question, we were interested in how parental socialization to gender roles related to these pathways. A sample of 496 Belgian boys aged 11.18 years (SD = 1.06, range = 9–13), participated in a longitudinal study and completed measures three times at 6-month intervals. Findings revealed that music TV was associated with increases in views of men as sexually dominant. Tween TV was associated with increases in views of women as sex objects, which in turn was associated with increased objectification of women's bodies among adolescents who experienced high levels of gender-typical socialization from their parents. These findings suggest that media exposure among early adolescent boys may contribute to the development of sexually objectifying attitudes toward women. In addition, they highlight the critical role of parents in modulating the effect of media exposure and suggest the usefulness of engaging parents in interventions aiming to decrease these deleterious effects.
Representation of Women in Video Games: A Systematic Review of Literature in Consideration of Adult Female Wellbeing
This study aims to provide a comprehensive systematic review of the literature relating to the representation of women within video games in consideration of adult female wellbeing. The research question of the study assessed whether the representation of women in video games leads to female self-objectification and negative body image in adult women. The Preferred Reporting Items for Systematic Reviews and Meta-Analyses (PRISMA) review method was used; comprising a thorough keyword database search, followed by literature screening and data extraction. Adult women were the focus of the study, with video games as the study exposure. Only 2 of the 22 studies directly assessed female wellbeing in relation to video game play. Results showed that women do report self-objectification and low levels of self-efficacy, as a result of exposure to objectified female content within video games, compared with participants exposed to nonobjectified content. Male and female belief in real-life female competence was jeopardized after exposure to objectified content of women within video games. Results demonstrated that female characters within video games are unevenly represented compared with male characters, with female characters mostly shown as subordinate to the male hero of the game, objectified, and hypersexualized with disproportionate body parts. The review also uncovered the propensity for men exposed to objectified and sexualized female characters within video games to hold sexist attitudes toward women in a real-life setting, and being more lenient to accept cultural rape myths.
You're still not doing the work yourself and making me do it.
Sorry, I was speaking to the effect of Media as a catalyst for the formation or normalization of pedophillic tendencies. Though thinking on it further I imagine getting data that narrow is borderline impossible; after-all where would you even find a group to test on and where would you find a control who was even remotely willing to tell the truth.
From what I've read as well as the links you've sourced, it's clear that there is at the very least a link between media consumption and sexual objectification; and with that in mind, it's not at all implausible that consumption of media that normalizes pedophillia could in fact have an effect on somebody's sexual appetites and tendencies.
Honestly, this is kind of an interesting rabbit hole to go down...I wonder if anybody has done any research into the topic of media in breaking or reinforcing sexual taboo's; or media's effect on the formulation of sexual fetishes. (That's not to say that pedophilia is an acceptable sexual fetish or that it shouldn't be taboo)
I'm not making you but I do appreciate the effort as the site doesn't seem to like my phone. :(. I'll take a more careful reading of the material at home.
No. I don't think that series even has any girls that young in the first place.
Quietly release today, but UN pass the motion to ban the sexualization of minors in media. Do note that it isn't talking specifically about lolis/shotas, it is any character under the age of 18. Second note, it isn't enforceable and it is just a guideline that they want countries to follow, doubt the US, Austria, and Japan will be one of those.
Rei, technically, and
one of the Reis, though she was never sexualized (just violently killed).
I don't think Rei would be considered a loli. She's underaged and fans/merch love to sexualize her though, which is obviously gross.
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And as expected, anime communities are doing their outrage thing over this.
But the ruling seems to say sexually explicit conduct, so I don't think your average high school swim club anime is going to really be affected by this. The only reason people would be outraged over the ruling would be if they...... yeaaaahh....
This thread is absolutely going to get people banned and probably get closed.
That being said, I've found sexualization of children in any medium to always be disturbing. Once I was not the same age as the characters in manga I was reading, I started to see how creepy it really was. I hadn't thought before then that so much of the target demographic was way too old to like thinking about even teen girls being sexualized. "Lolis" (don't even like the word) are a whole different story. That's totally fucked. I don't think there's an age group where that would be appropriate to depict.
That being said, I've found sexualization of children in any medium to always be disturbing. Once I was not the same age as the characters in manga I was reading, I started to see how creepy it really was. I hadn't thought before then that so much of the target demographic was way too old to like thinking about even teen girls being sexualized. "Lolis" (don't even like the word) are a whole different story. That's totally fucked. I don't think there's an age group where that would be appropriate to depict.
After years of anime my rule of the thumb is "if she/he looks like an adult" then okay I guess. It like in series with 20 years old actors interpreting teenagers like in that tv series called "Elite".
MHA Characters are still underage. Why are we forcing a distinction on Anime, that people would get banned for if they did it on real people? Underage fanservice is part of the same issue lolicon is part of.
I mean, it's not like MHA is the mosg offensive show ever in that regard, it's fairly tame, sure. The reason it was brought up, was because OP champions Shounen shows as being unproblematic when it comes to this, which isn't really true at all. I don't think drawing a line at "well they're in highschool!" is helpful at all.
As for shounen and lolicon, lolicon pandering, look no further than Ennen no Shoubutai with its lolita nun that even has a fanservice ending dedicated to her.
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Correct, I must've gotten the wording confuse with the previous proposition, in 2014 I think. it was more broad.
Also, Japan has given a response to the UN about the new guidelines, and to summarize, they don't care at all about it.
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