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GameShrink

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,680
That would open them up to false advertising, were they said again and again that players were able to make a character that could be straight, bi, gay, lesbian or ace. I suspect the only reason that they aren't being done for that at the moment is technically the DLC is a seperate product.
There's no way people could sue them for false advertising over a story choice. That would be like suing the makers of Cabin in the Woods because it was marketed as a horror film. Their characters are ultimately theirs to define, no matter how disappointing their choice was.

The best we can hope for is that they'll be more careful in the future.
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,742
There's no way people could sue them for false advertising over a story choice. That would be like suing the makers of Cabin in the Woods because it was marketed as a horror film. Their characters are ultimately theirs to define, no matter how disappointing their choice was.

The best we can hope for is that they'll be more careful in the future.
They advertised as a strong selling point that the sexuality of the character was their player choice - if they turn around and say in the same game, that actually the character was always bi no matter the choice the player made (which they advertised the game on), that's false advertising. I'm not saying they don't have the right to control the character story, customers do have the right to go to the relevant authorities that they were lied to in the advertising. You don't just get to say what you want during PR for any product, theyn completely change it after the product is sold.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,295
@Crossing Eden you're cool generally but you need to stop defending Ubisoft's shit on this,
You should probably google the following words:

"Passive aggressive"

if you think "it's quite evident that the narrative director didn't work on this." is me defending the romance decision. Btw, I very much much doubt they've changed their plans for episode 3, which I firmly believe will likely give you a choice regarding whether or not to stay with the new family or not.
 

Fid

Member
Jun 5, 2018
254
Detroit
I feel like the only real solution is to come out and say "Kassandra and Alexios are canonically bisexual, every one of their possible relationships is canon."

Is it a bit late to do this? Sure. Would it suck for the people who played their character in a very specific way? Absolutely. But, in the end, there's really no other option other than altering the storyline of DLC they've already released. At least it could be chalked up as a win for bisexual representation in hindsight, not the worst outcome.

Being bi isn't the same as being gay. Doing this to throw a bone to the upset queer folks would reinforce a binary grouping of "Straight" and "Not-straight" which is... almost worse?
 

Orb

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,465
USA
Can we please not go down an ignorant "false advertising" tangent here? You are not a lawyer and false advertising doesn't mean what you think it does.
 

Baccus

Banned
Dec 4, 2018
5,307
if you think "it's quite evident that the narrative director didn't work on this." is me defending the romance decision. Btw, I very much much doubt they've changed their plans for episode 3, which I firmly believe will likely give you a choice regarding whether or not to stay with the new family or not.
Damage is already done. Whatever they do to salvage this mess doesn't excuse them for creating it in the first place., You just don't do this with such a high profile franchise.

BTW the DLC has been bad from a gameplay standpoint too, and an absolute contrast compared to the amazing Origins' expansions. Ubisoft blew this.
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,742
Can we please not go down an ignorant "false advertising" tangent here? You are not a lawyer and false advertising doesn't mean what you think it does.
There's such a thing as consumer rights (at least is in the UK)
https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/consumer-rights-act
As described The goods supplied must match any description given to you, or any models or samples shown to you at the time of purchase.
This likely wouldn't apply as it could be arged the DLC is a seperate product but let's not argue that Ubisoft did not use creating any type of LGBT or ace character as a selling point or description of the AC:Origins.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,295
There's such a thing as consumer rights (at least is in the UK)
https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/consumer-rights-act

This likely wouldn't apply as it could be arged the DLC is a seperate product but let's not argue that Ubisoft did not use creating any type of LGBT or ace character as a selling point or description of the AC:Origins.
If you could sue a dev for canon stuff happening regardless of player input in an RPG than literally every RPG dev would be in danger.
 

Fid

Member
Jun 5, 2018
254
Detroit
Can we please not go down an ignorant "false advertising" tangent here? You are not a lawyer and false advertising doesn't mean what you think it does.
I don't believe anyone here is preparing to file an actual lawsuit over this, so its meaning is understood as a colloquialism.

I think Ubi really sold us a bill of goods with this DLC. That does not mean they literally sold us a manifest listing goods that they did not then produce.
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,742
If you could sue a dev for canon stuff happening regardless of player input in an RPG than literally every RPG dev would be in danger.
That's not what I said? At all? They used their advertising that you would be able to chose character's sexuality in this game, that's apparently not true. Wt heck has that got to do with game companies choosing a canon?
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,295
That's not what I said? At all? They used their advertising that you would be able to chose character's sexuality in this game, that's apparently not true. Wt heck has that got to do with game companies choosing a canon?
The point is that you can't sue a dev for including a scene where you have a child in an rpg. Especially when said scene has an option that (very sloppily) directly implies that they don't love the father/mother
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,742
The point is that you can't sue a dev for including a scene where you have a child in an rpg. Especially when said scene has an option that (very sloppily) directly implies that they don't love the father/mother
This was all in reference to someone saying they should come out and say that Alexius/Kassandra is bi. I already said it's unlikely you could ask for a refund (a refund. not sue, it's you that keeps saying that) cus it's a separate product. And I do think that even with that scene it goes against what they advertised for the main game, were they said you can make the character ace and not have sex at all. Control of the player sexuality was adevertised, that line doesn't change the fact that it's portrayed as a love match.
 

Persephone

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,407
honestly insert "ubisoft shot themselves in the foot" memes yadda yadda but if they really just leave their response as that statement to kotaku then it's. really not a good look for them and i think they're going to lose the trust of their lgbt fans in a big way over this.
 

bahorel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
500
There's no excuse for this. Herteronormative writing in a game meant to be one of choice is ignorant. Ubisoft, do better. Disappointing and making me reevaluate how I will play the game when I get it.
 

scrambledeggs

Member
Apr 25, 2018
486
Being bi isn't the same as being gay. Doing this to throw a bone to the upset queer folks would reinforce a binary grouping of "Straight" and "Not-straight" which is... almost worse?
Not to mention that a lot of bi gamers have also gone on to express their discontent with the DLC. Just because someone is bi doesn't mean they're automatically a-okay with some forced romance with the opposite sex in a game where player agency in the narrative and same-sex romantic entanglements were heavily advertised. In Kassandra's case, it would also go on to enforce the damaging stereotype that bi women almost always settle down with a man.

It's just fucked up all around and I wish Ubisoft hadn't marketed the game the way they did. Or even allowed us to sleep around with everyone only to fuck us over lmao. :(
 

MinusTydus

The Fallen
Jul 28, 2018
8,194
So because people (including a mod) don't want to be spoiled in a title that could have easily been worded differently, they now care more about spoilers than LGBT representation? No.
They could be speaking about the thread's current title. "Forces something " is so incredibly vague it's of no value to LGBT gamers who might be considering purchasing the DLC, but don't know about the problematic issues with it.

"Forces gay protags to become straight" would be a more accurate title.
 

Albatross

Member
Nov 11, 2017
196
If you care enought to call out Ubisoft on social media, these are the hashtags many people are using:
#notmyKassandra #notmyAlexios #notmyOdyssey
 

Oreiller

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,828
I need to ask a question.
If the next assassin is a male (no choice) and gay (no choice, just writer narrative) would it be a problem?

For me no, i would find it awesome but i'm asking
It would never happen because the usual snowflakes would complain about "SJW propaganda" being forced down their throat and they would harass any woman involved in the game's development.

I personally wouldn't mind but I don't see how it's relevant here. The problem is not that a heterosexual relationship is featured in the game in itself but rather that it goes against what the rest of the game is built upon, which is to play a straight, gay, bi or asexual character.
Throwing it out of the picture after a hundred hours of playtime is a spit in many players' face. I know I wouldn't have paid for this trash excuse of a DLC if I knew it would invalidate my character's sexual identity, that's for sure.
 

Kylo Rey

Banned
Dec 17, 2017
3,442
It would never happen because the usual snowflakes would complain about "SJW propaganda" being forced down their throat and they would harass any woman involved in the game's development.

I personally wouldn't mind but I don't see how it's relevant here. The problem is not that a heterosexual relationship is featured in the game in itself but rather that it goes against what the rest of the game is built upon, which is to play a straight, gay, bi or asexual character.
Throwing it out of the picture after a hundred hours of playtime is a spit in many players' face. I know I wouldn't have paid for this trash excuse of a DLC if I knew it would invalidate my character's sexual identity, that's for sure.

I'm not talking about Odyssey but about a "next" game. I feel like Ubisoft is cornered now and they can''t now do an AC game with "no" choice.
If the hero is straight, many community will be sad.
If the hero is lesbian/gay/bixesual/transexual, ubi will suffer the backlash of 4chan and trump fans.
 

CaptainKashup

Banned
May 10, 2018
8,313
It's shitty of Ubisoft to take away people's choice. I don't see it as homophobic, just totally out-of-touch with their audience.
But I also think that making Assassin's Creed a "Sexuality simulator" was a really bad choice in the first place.
 

Ferrs

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
18,829
I'm not talking about Odyssey but about a "next" game. I feel like Ubisoft is cornered now and they can''t now do an AC game with "no" choice.
If the hero is straight, many community will be sad.
If the hero is lesbian/gay/bixesual/transexual, ubi will suffer the backlash of 4chan and trump fans.

This is just a tale on your head. People could be dissapointed but still be ok with a next game that offers no choice if the devs advertise it as such. Again, the problem with this is that the devs/PR/whoever you want to say lied about your sexual orientation choices. And yes, this only happens in DLC includes it, because the DLC was in some form already in development well before launch, even if it was just planning stages.
 

Kongroo

Avenger
Oct 31, 2017
2,935
Ottawa, Ontario, CA
User Banned (1 Week): Dismissing Concerns Surrounding Representation and Inclusivity Over a Series of Posts
You.don't.have.to.buy.the.dlc.

Seriously. Just don't buy it. Vote with your wallet. It's not part of the main game. It's just bad side content. Kind of like a bad cosmetic skin for a shooter. I think Ubisoft is in the wrong but this is more of a "huh. that's dumb. Oh well." moment.

You can literally just not pay 10$ for a bad dlc and not play it. It's that easy. It's not like this is hidden in the main game and you're forced to do it. This is side content that you need to opt in for. What a weird thread.
 

Icemonk191

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,814
I'm not talking about Odyssey but about a "next" game. I feel like Ubisoft is cornered now and they can''t now do an AC game with "no" choice.
If the hero is straight, many community will be sad.
If the hero is lesbian/gay/bixesual/transexual, ubi will suffer the backlash of 4chan and trump fans.

Ok, so? What does any of that have to do with what we're talking about? Who cares right now about future titles when the discussion is about Odyssey.

Can you please stop trying to change the subject!
 

Shark

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,126
Raleigh, NC
Late to the party and my thoughts have probably been said more eloquently in here many times over but I needed a place to vent.

I've never hated a DLC more in my life. It has almost completely tainted my entire experience with the game.

I love Odyssey. It has my favorite gameplay loop of anything that came out last year. I enjoyed hour 120 as much as hour 1. Kassandra is already one of my favorite protagonists ever. I was thrilled that the ending I got felt like exactly what I hoped to happen and even if the choices and dialogue options I chose didn't matter much, it tricked me well enough to make me believe they did and I was content.

A critique I had of the game was that the 'romance' options are mostly played for laughs (there are a few notable exceptions) and in the end they don't really mean anything. There were also a disproportionate amount of female options compared to male options. If it matters, I played a female character in Dragon Age Inquisition and pursued a male romance. In Odyssey I felt the more meaningful and interesting romantic pursuits were female.

Not only was this DLC the most boring string of quests in the game, for the first time in 100+ hours I felt like I had no say in what Kassandra did or reacted to a situation.

It sucks how much this has soured the entire experience and one of the best supported 1P game I can remember this gen. I feel doubly bad for those that identified with either character, played them a certain way and then had their agency ripped away and forced to have a child with a man.

I don't think there is a way to 'fix' this and I don't think the stink of this situation will leave the perception and fondness a lot of people have for this game.
 

CopperPuppy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,636
I'm not talking about Odyssey but about a "next" game. I feel like Ubisoft is cornered now and they can''t now do an AC game with "no" choice.
If the hero is straight, many community will be sad.
If the hero is lesbian/gay/bixesual/transexual, ubi will suffer the backlash of 4chan and trump fans.
You just said this
I m out. I don't understand anything about this topic anymore.
And lasted all of 10 minutes before you came in and started coming up with more strawmen. Your hypothetical scenarios have nothing to do with the topic.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,495
You.don't.have.to.buy.the.dlc.

Seriously. Just don't buy it. Vote with your wallet. It's not part of the main game. It's just bad side content. Kind of like a bad cosmetic skin for a shooter. I think Ubisoft is in the wrong but this is more of a "huh. that's dumb. Oh well." moment.

You can literally just not pay 10$ for a bad dlc and not play it. It's that easy. It's not like this is hidden in the main game and you're forced to do it. This is side content that you need to opt in for. What a weird thread.

It's sending a pretty shitty message, so no, this needs to be talked about and Ubisoft needs to be held accountable for it. Quit excusing it.
 

Oreiller

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,828
I'm not talking about Odyssey but about a "next" game. I feel like Ubisoft is cornered now and they can''t now do an AC game with "no" choice.
If the hero is straight, many community will be sad.
If the hero is lesbian/gay/bixesual/transexual, ubi will suffer the backlash of 4chan and trump fans.
Well, it seems pretty clear Ubi wants to position AC as a RPG franchise so I doubt they would throw choices out of the window. But even if they did, it's all a matter of framing. Having a straight, bi or gay character isn't an issue (except for bigots obviously) as long as they frame it properly and make it clear from the get go you don't have a say on the matter.

Anyway, I don't see what that has to do with this DLC.
 

Ferrs

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
18,829
You.don't.have.to.buy.the.dlc.

Seriously. Just don't buy it. Vote with your wallet. It's not part of the main game. It's just bad side content. Kind of like a bad cosmetic skin for a shooter. I think Ubisoft is in the wrong but this is more of a "huh. that's dumb. Oh well." moment.

You can literally just not pay 10$ for a bad dlc and not play it. It's that easy. It's not like this is hidden in the main game and you're forced to do it. This is side content that you need to opt in for. What a weird thread.

People can not buy the DLC and still talk about it. This is way more worth of discussion that the 30-pages thread about some shitty downgrade.
 

Deleted member 42

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
16,939
Me: Oh this game is neat let me play it for an hour to get a free uPlay copy
Also Me: WOAH I'M NOT READY FOR KIDS
 

Deleted member 31817

Nov 7, 2017
30,876
You.don't.have.to.buy.the.dlc.

Seriously. Just don't buy it. Vote with your wallet. It's not part of the main game. It's just bad side content. Kind of like a bad cosmetic skin for a shooter. I think Ubisoft is in the wrong but this is more of a "huh. that's dumb. Oh well." moment.

You can literally just not pay 10$ for a bad dlc and not play it. It's that easy. It's not like this is hidden in the main game and you're forced to do it. This is side content that you need to opt in for. What a weird thread.
It's a discussion forum.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,495
I'm more referring to the fact that almost every game nowadays has bad dlc. This is no different. It's another bad dlc.

That you think this has any direct comparison to other games' 'bad DLC' shows how disconnected you are from the actual problem. Your post is no different from any of the other poor takes in this thread. It's another bad post, should you keep making them?
 

Kongroo

Avenger
Oct 31, 2017
2,935
Ottawa, Ontario, CA
What DLC did you play recently that changed your character (the one they advertised you could chose their sexuality) to straight?

I guess sexuality is a more touchy subject. I just expect the worst all the time from these companies and I'm never disappointed. I'm just getting flashes of the babies who complained about the Mass Effect 3 endings. I think I'm getting now that this situation is more complicated than that.
 

Albatross

Member
Nov 11, 2017
196
I'm more referring to the fact that almost every game nowadays has bad dlc. This is no different. It's another bad dlc.
Seriously? Just another bad dlc?

Is it so difficult to understand what it means to a LGBT player suddenly having an unwanted het sexual relationship and family forced down their throat, after 80-100 hours spent with their character (yes, THEIR character, because that's what Ubisoft promised, complete freedom to roleplay the sexuality of the protagonist)?

Have you, or all the other people who can't understand this issue, even tried to read that strong and powerful reddit post by that girl which is included in the OP?
 

Kongroo

Avenger
Oct 31, 2017
2,935
Ottawa, Ontario, CA
Seriously? Just another bad dlc?

Is it so difficult to understand what it means to a LGBT player suddenly having an unwanted het sexual relationship and family forced down their throat, after 80-100 hours spent with their character (yes, THEIR character, because that's what Ubisoft promised, complete freedom to roleplay the sexuality of the protagonist)?

Have you, or all the other people who can't understand this issue, even tried to read that strong and powerful reddit post by that girl which is included in the OP?

The part I disconnect with is the fact that it's DLC. You're choosing to play it. You can always wait for reviews before playing. If you pre-bought it, then you took that risk. It does suck that Ubisoft did that. But at the end of the day, by not playing it, most issues are solved, no?
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,742
The part I disconnect with is the fact that it's DLC. You're choosing to play it. You can always wait for reviews before playing. If you pre-bought it, then you took that risk. It does suck that Ubisoft did that. But at the end of the day, by not playing it, most issues are solved, no?
Again, read the reddit post in the OP, she explains succently the damage of what having LGBT characters turned straight in the media does in real life.
 

Deleted member 31817

Nov 7, 2017
30,876
The part I disconnect with is the fact that it's DLC. You're choosing to play it. You can always wait for reviews before playing. If you pre-bought it, then you took that risk. It does suck that Ubisoft did that. But at the end of the day, by not playing it, most issues are solved, no?
No. It's a large issue of LGBT representation, heternormativity, gay conversion and more in the gaming industry and specifically a company that had prided itself on its representation while marketing this specific game extra hard on that front.
 
Nov 2, 2017
2,239
The part I disconnect with is the fact that it's DLC. You're choosing to play it. You can always wait for reviews before playing. If you pre-bought it, then you took that risk. It does suck that Ubisoft did that. But at the end of the day, by not playing it, most issues are solved, no?

The DLC promotes shitty messages about LGBT people. It does that regardless of whether an individual buys it or not, unless it so happens that no one has ever bought this DLC (which is probably untrue).

The fact that Ubisoft is promoting harmful messages about LGBT people is a problem in and of itself and worthy of discussion whether any one individual buys the DLC or not.
 

Persephone

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,407
People saying "don't buy the DLC then" don't get that it's not necessarily that simple. I own the DLC (but don't plan to touch it now) but this shit has pretty much tainted the entire game for me because I can't play it without thinking about this homophobic bullshit. Even for people who haven't played it, that'll be the case.
 

Uzzy

Gabe’s little helper
Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,056
Hull, UK
The part I disconnect with is the fact that it's DLC. You're choosing to play it. You can always wait for reviews before playing. If you pre-bought it, then you took that risk. It does suck that Ubisoft did that. But at the end of the day, by not playing it, most issues are solved, no?

No. Because knowing that Ubisoft feel this way about player choice over such a personal choice (your characters sexuality) is highly concerning going forwards. They explicitly stated they weren't going to do this, but now you have to doubt any future statements on it.
 

Hasseigaku

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,537
If they couldn't get around the main characters having a child (which, let's be for real, they could have) then make it a little darker, that the prophecy or whatever they want to come up with require that they have a child, and you could have gay Alexios and lesbian Kassandra reluctantly going through with it for a higher cause?

I mean, that would be an enormous bummer but it would at least be consistent with their character as they've been played.
 

devSin

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,194
I'm glad their response is basically "we fucked up".

They can't undo it, but knowing that they wanted the baby stuff to happen as a practical matter without forcing the player to go in it to win it is better than them simply not thinking about it at all (which leaves them in the position of having the whole "player choice" narrative they spun prior to release being total marketing BS). I'm glad they're not going to force the player to stick with it in the final episode (hopefully they can provide some nuance, though it may be too much to hope for if these first 2 episodes are anything to judge by).

Overall disappointing, but I'm betting they don't make the same mistakes in the second DLC.