Associated Press: In wake of Weinstein, men wonder if hugging women still OK

[Kaban]

I hug my good female friends when I say hello/goodbye. This is also mostly the case with my male friends. It’s. Something we both consent to. With men it’s a little more awkward, as you sometimes don’t know whether to go for the hug or a back-pat/handshake.

I’ve also hugged female co-workers, but only when it’s been their last day of work, or my last day of work. Once again, that’s usually the case for my male co-workers too, but a handshake is normally the case for more of my senior colleagues.

It’s not hard to figure out, and hugs aren’t a bad thing. A good hug is fine every now and then, but should at least be between two people who know each other and who are both sure they’re ok with it.

 

[Patapuf]

Hugging is coworkers as a greeting or goodbye is pretty common where i'm from. It can be awkard with strangers, but i've yet to see anyone feel harassed by that. I don't think this is a real problem.

There's no point in living in fear of harassment accusations. On the off chance someone maliciously accuses you, they'll find something. Trying to be considerate still works for 90% of social interactions.

 

[Deleted member 15948]

You might need to grow up a little. The world doesn’t care about your personal preferences. I hate wearing suits but crying about it at a job interview would just make me look childish. Some things you just suck it up. It’s your issue to deal with, not everyone else’s to accommodate.

Click to shrink...

So women should just accept men touching and kissing them against their will and 'suck it up' because men like it? Hmm, how did this whole thing start again, remind me?

 

[Messofanego]

The best thing for people to do is just not talk or look at anybody and just read dramatic news articles online all day. It's healthy and good for you.

Click to shrink...

Or just get better at social interaction? It's not rocket science. But if someone wants to break off all contact to avoid possible sexual misconduct like Mike Pence, that's their choice.

 

[Squiggely]

I was once renting a room and the person I was showing it to got a little bit amorous when they saw the interview was going South.

Wanted a hug. Errr... ok? (They got an awkward hug)

They then went for the crotch, said no thank you very much, continued the interview and never called them back.

Happens to dudes too, but this is obviously one extreme example though, never happened since.

 

[johancruijff]

after all this mess you hear higher ups debating how they can split their workers in the workplace / hiring people based on the prevalent number of workers

 

[Amory]

I work in a women dominated industry and colleagues hug all the time. However, we have made a conscious effort to stop as it may make someone uncomfortable. Because God forgive if someone has an actual emotion

Click to shrink...

This is so weird to me. I've worked at a bunch of places in different industries and no one casually hugged. And there were some close knit groups.

I understand hugging a coworker in social settings, at a party or a bar or whatever. But at work? When were you hugging?

 

[Bman94]

Did you guys see the thread about Adam Sandler on Graham Norton?

Click to shrink...

No. What happened?

 

[Mikebison]

Obviously knowing wether it's right or not to hug someone is incredibly nuanced. It's all about mood, how well you know them, wether its right for both of you etc.

Regardless, always thought it was safest to stand back and hold your arms out if you want to initiate one and let them come in, rather than leaning in and 'forcing' someone into a hug.
It's the hug equivalent of putting your cards on the table.

Having said that, I can confidently say that in my life I've only ever hugged people I know would want one because I know them.
Have been on the receiving end of some awkward unwanted hugs before, but just make it quick. Add a 'pat' with it. They'll break off quickly. It's a bit awkward, but not the worst thing in the world. However, I'm not a girl having old dudes attempting to hug me all the time. I can see how that'd be worse.

 

[Mikebison]

I hate threads like these because they always have this vibe of "oh, all women are irrational crazy bitches who would accuse a dude of sexual harassment for saying good morning" like... goddamn we are so tired of this shit.



I hate hate hate having to kiss random men on the cheek or else be accused of being "rude". It's just uncomfortable.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, it's bullshit if it's some like expected social convention. If you'd prefer a handshake, or no contact at all, that should be completely up to you.

 

[Dr. Dre's Dr.]

Peterson is describing something different than your example. In your example, you reciprocated what she initiated. Peterson is describing uninvited physical contact. Now, not every woman will react the same way to that, but for the women that it bothers, it puts them in an uncomfortable situation, and often they feel they should "play nice" and get along. Does that difference make sense?

Click to shrink...

Yeah, I understood that from the jump, but sorry if my words did not reflect that. My fault, last post of the day after getting a fussy baby down, apologies. I almost wonder if no touching beyond hand shake policy would work best. I don’t know what else is actually reasonable at the workplace. Women would feel like there is a hard line drawn and I think that if any employers have employees crying about all the extra physical contact they can’t give any more we can shove them out. If Jane and John have a great relationship they can meet for lunch and hug there. Now I’m sorry if I messed something else up. First post of the day. No coffee. Bad sleep.

 

[Zeyphersan]

You might need to grow up a little. The world doesn’t care about your personal preferences. I hate wearing suits but crying about it at a job interview would just make me look childish. Some things you just suck it up. It’s your issue to deal with, not everyone else’s to accommodate.

Click to shrink...

Oh please. A person’s comfort or discomfort is far, far more important than the societal expectation of kissing strangers. Of course the world does care about your personal preferences, but only if it doesn’t disrupt that delicate balance of what is considered “rude”. You can make a similar observation about gender pronouns, a person’s preference is completely fine as long as it lines up with what people expect, it’s when someone deviates from that does it suddenly become a problem.

Also, good comparison of an outfit to wear to interview for a job to physically interacting with other people in a way that you don’t want to but are expected to. One is an inanimate piece of clothing that you wear for appearances, the other requires that you get up close and intimate with someone that you very well might not want to but if you don’t you hurt their ego, which as we all know is a far bigger crime.

And I’m not even a “no one touch anyone” type of person, but I also know that these types of greetings rely on two things: the presumption that everyone involved is okay with it, and the idea that not being rude is more important than whatever it is that you’re doing. Both of which are at the core of what people are talking about in regards to unwanted contact or harassment.

 

[Luchashaq]

I hug my good female friends when I say hello/goodbye. This is also mostly the case with my male friends. It’s. Something we both consent to. .

Click to shrink...

Same, but it isn't as complicated as people want to make it out to be.

If you put out your arms for a hug and the person doesn't walk towards you doing the same thing they clearly don't want to fucking hug you. Yeah it might feel awkward to transition into a handshake/nothing but it would be way weirder to hug somebody who isn't hugging you back especially someone like a fucking co-worker.

 

[Shadybiz]

Oh please. Of course you can say "that's a nice dress." ....Just don't say "That's a nice dress....I'd like to see it crumpled up on my floor."

Don't be a creepy asshole, basically. If you abide by that, you should be okay.

 

[Knuckle Sandwich]

I hug and even do pecks on the cheek with several female co-workers but I never initiate it because I'm not wired that way and I think it's kinda gross. I can't see a non awkward way to stop it though.

 

[Preezy]

I hug Grizzlor and Evil-Lyn all the time and they never complain.

 

[Talraen]

I hate threads like these because they always have this vibe of "oh, all women are irrational crazy bitches who would accuse a dude of sexual harassment for saying good morning" like... goddamn we are so tired of this shit.

Click to shrink...

There's definitely plenty of that, but there are some men (myself included) who are more worried about whether something we're doing is unknowingly making a woman uncomfortable than whether they're going to go to HR about it.

Don't be a creepy asshole, basically. If you abide by that, you should be okay.

Click to shrink...

If it was so simple we probably wouldn't have 11 pages and counting arguing about it. :)

 

[phantomx]

If you're worried that you're about to hug a woman who doesn't want to be hugged you could always... you know... ask

Click to shrink...

Or, if you find yourself only hugging/touching women at work and never men...you should probably stop...because there is clearly a sexual component behind it, even if you don’t want to admit it to yourself

 

[GameShrink]

I could understand this fear if any of the allegations didn't involve the exposure, touching or discussion of genitals/breasts/butts, but the fact is that everything so far has involved explicit parts of the body.

Once men are being targeted for putting a hand on a shoulder or some other non-explicit part of the body, then these fears will be justified. We're not there yet.

 

[Stouffers]

Or, if you find yourself only hugging/touching women at work and never men...you should probably stop...because there is clearly a sexual component behind it, even if you don’t want to admit it to yourself

Click to shrink...

I only touch men at work. I work from home. Alone.

 

[Talraen]

Or, if you find yourself only hugging/touching women at work and never men...you should probably stop...because there is clearly a sexual component behind it

Click to shrink...

Personally, I never initiate a hug with anyone outside of my family. At work, 100% of the hugs initiated in my direction are by women (not that this is common). I sincerely hope an outside observer doesn't use the result (i.e., that I only hug women at work) to conclude that there is "clearly a sexual component behind it."

Once men are being targeted for putting a hand on a shoulder or some other non-explicit part of the body, then these fears will be justified. We're not there yet.

Click to shrink...

Being overly familiar and putting your hand on someone's shoulder, regardless of gender, can absolutely make people uncomfortable. The touching does not need to be sexual to be wrong.

 

[regenhuber]

This is so weird to me. I've worked at a bunch of places in different industries and no one casually hugged. And there were some close knit groups.

I understand hugging a coworker in social settings, at a party or a bar or whatever. But at work? When were you hugging?

Click to shrink...

Same here in Germany. "Hugging" is a friends/family only thing, you also don't do the kiss on the cheek left/right thingy in a professional setting.

That said, when I was living and later working in the US (Arkansas)... people were hugging all the time. Greetings, Good Byes or happy moments always triggered a hug. You go to people's homes for dinner a few time, your next meeting will begin with a hug.
Felt strange from my EU perspective but I rolled with the local tradition.

I can totally see how men will dial down the hugging now and it's a good thing. At my US workplace there was a guy who was awkward AF and always gave hugs to secretaries after talking to them.

 

[Stop Motion Pornography]

Hugging is fine if it’s not longer than 5 Mississippi’s

Click to shrink...

But can you pause a beat between Mississippi's or do you have to flow right into the next one?

 

[Raptomex]

Don't physically touch anybody without consent and keep your perverse thoughts to yourself. I don't know what's so hard about that. We all find other people attractive, that's natural. However, it's how and when we act on these feelings that's important. It's really not difficult. If I'm at work, I don't make inappropriate comments and I keep my hands to myself.

 

[Stouffers]

I wonder how this will impact human evolution. With the advent of social media and a ban on casual hugging, I wonder what the impact will be on social interaction 50-100 years down the line.

 

[E.Balboa]

You could hire only men and not have to deal with female harassment! Easy!

 

[Luchashaq]

Being overly familiar and putting your hand on someone's shoulder, regardless of gender, can absolutely make people uncomfortable. The touching does not need to be sexual to be wrong.

Click to shrink...

Yup I fucking HATE when people do this to me even if it's a woman 1/3rd my size. Motherfucker I don't know you don't touch me unless we are drunk on the dance floor or something at a club.

Almost clocked a woman on reflex who grabbed my shoulders from behind at the gym the other day who was trying to talk to me. I have headphones in, don't talk to me unless you're actively dying and need assistance and certainly don't fucking touch me.

When she got pissed at my reaction she called me a "faggot" and walked away when I asked her how she would have reacted if I had grabbed her like that.

 

[GotMineGood]

Alternate thread title:

In wake of Weinstein, men still clueless about how to behave around women.

 

[III-V]

psa wow: assholes, assholes everywhere

 

[Cymbal Head]

I like hugs. Hugs are great.

I would never initiate a hug at work because I understand the nature of professional relationships.

I am extremely careful about personal space everywhere I go.

It's called common courtesy.

 

[J tourettes]

I may have done a poor job of explaining myself.
Hypothetical: We have two people, Person A and Person B. They're colleagues, they're perfectly friendly with each other, but they don't have any kind of relationship outside of the workplace. Person B completely understands this and doesn't consider Person A to be anything like a friend. Person A isn't 100% clear on that, and as a result, they aren't going to think "Well, if I have to ask, I shouldn't." Based on the article the thread is based on, and ignoring the more absurd arguments (e.g., wondering if merely talking to women is okay), this is an actual issue that some people are struggling with. Person A is one of these people. In this scenario, where Person A is not aware enough to arrive at the conclusion that you have, which is worse: Person A hugging Person B, regardless of how Person B feels about it (it's worth remembering that some groups in various societies are not necessarily empowered to refuse the motion or raise issue with it after the fact); or Person A asking if they can hug Person B? To me, the answer is obvious. So my conclusion is that we've somehow ended up arguing two different points. I would agree, if you're wondering if it's okay to hug someone, you're probably not close enough for that kind of contact and you should wait for the other person to indicate otherwise. But that relies on an individual being aware enough to accurately interpret the relationship and that doesn't always happen.


As an argument, I find that slightly less disingenuous as "Can I say good morning to women, or is that harrassment?" But only slightly. It's a substantially different action than what I believe this thread to be about and your question is otherwise vague. In a professional scenario, with an appropriate context, then obviously not. If someone should feel the urge to walk down the street and shake the hand of everyone they pass, then that's an unusual behaviour where I'm from so I can't say I'd recommend it, but if they absolutely must, then they definitely should ask for permission instead of just grabbing hands.

Click to shrink...

I asked as it's almost the same thing. ie a greeting that is part of societal norms, thus asking to do it would be strange.

As for your example, it's utter bollocks and had nothing to do with the matter at hand, no pun intended.

 

[Lys Skygge]

The only time I hug someone I work with/aquintence is if he/she goes in for the hug first. Otherwise, I prefer to shake hands.

 

[Bobo Dakes]

Hugs are nice, but I don't initiate most of the time. Most of time you're just getting the one arm treatment. Never got any complaints.

 

[Praetorpwj]

I am not a natural hugger but one of life's huggees. Don't really see the need for it in the workplace.

 

[Stouffers]

Alternate thread title:

In wake of Weinstein, men still clueless about how to behave around women.

Click to shrink...

But hasn’t that always been the case?

 

[lmcfigs]

No. What happened?

Click to shrink...

He put his hand on Claire Foy's knee while telling a story. Many posters called it an instance of sexual harassment. Then other posters pointed out that he often does the same thing with men - he gets physical when telling stories apparently.

Edit: search for the thread. It's still there...

 

[MisterR]

lol

Click to shrink...

Do you really think it's odd someone wouldn't remember the name of an intern they asked to get coffee decades ago?

 

[Azem]

I asked as it's almost the same thing. ie a greeting that is part of societal norms, thus asking to do it would be strange.

Click to shrink...

Ah, I wasn't sure if you were being serious or not, since I consider extending a hand and waiting for reciprocation to be fundamentally different. The only thing that could come close would be a Trump-style seize-and-yank.

 

[nelsonroyale]

I can see this how this might be a problem for guys (A) who are perverted creeps, (B) who are pretty socially clueless in a situational sense. Otherwise, you can usually figure out what is appropriate. Sometimes it can be awkward, but there are always those issues. Honestly, if you are fairly culturally aware and also decent at reading people, you can work this one out...

 

[lmcfigs]

I can see this how this might be a problem for guys (A) who are perverted creeps, (B) who are pretty socially clueless in a situational sense. Otherwise, you can usually figure out what is appropriate. Sometimes it can be awkward, but there are always those issues. Honestly, if you are fairly culturally aware and also decent at reading people, you can work this one out...

Click to shrink...

I think the article is presenting cases where men, some of whom have been in professional settings for a very long time, don't know where the boundaries are. And at least one of them is only now regretting potential pass transgressions he may have committed. Saying it's obvious unless you're socially awkward or a creep is contradictory to what the article is saying. Even "normal" guys seem to have a hard time with it.

 

[TitanicFall]

I agree to be careful with what you say and do because everyone will react differently, but I think if things go too overboard, men and women will just stop talking to each other or keep discussions to only the most mundane work subjects. Not very good if you want to establish camaraderie. Women who work in a male dominated environment will just feel more isolated and the same will happen to men who work in a female dominated environment.

 

[Bricks]

Reading some of the posts in this thread, I couldn't help but think of this. An entertaining read.

 

[water_wendi]

i had not thought about this but i could see something happening like what happened with men and children. Males who are considerate might come to the conclusion that its best to not engage at all as to not have any possibility of a misunderstanding. The assholes wont stop though.

 

[Nacho]

It's called "paranoia".
Sorry, but operating with such mindset is neither polite nor healthy.


I was talking more about desire of people to ask questions.
If they want to ask questions it doesn't make them perverts, harassers and whatnot. Assuming so, is incredibly ridiculous.

Click to shrink...

The insinuation of articles like this though are that because you're forced to ask questions, the rules must be bad. That's where my response came from. I agree that we should all be forced to question and examine our behavior. But if the rules make you unfomfortable due to having to examine your own behavior, it's not the rules fault
I think that explains my position better.

 

[Deleted member 15948]

Saying it's obvious unless you're socially awkward or a creep is contradictory to what the article is saying. Even "normal" guys seem to have a hard time with it.

Click to shrink...

Honestly, I have a hard time believing that attitude. I can only interpret it as disingenuous ("I had noooo idea... honest... I swear... really...") or that they simply never considered women to be just regular human beings. Presumably mostly the latter. You can only have a 'hard time' figuring it out if you're starting from the base position of women as some alien unknown that operate on rules different from the rest of (male) society.

Anecdotally, I've noticed that guys who have female friends seem to have no trouble with this. Guys who don't socialize with women outside of girlfriends/wives (or at all) are the problem. Correlation or causation?

 

[OrdinaryPrime]

i had not thought about this but i could see something happening like what happened with men and children. Males who are considerate might come to the conclusion that its best to not engage at all as to not have any possibility of a misunderstanding. The assholes wont stop though.

Click to shrink...

Already happens. Think of how a single dad taking his kid to a park is treated compared to a mom. People think it's weird.

 

[water_wendi]

Already happens. Think of how a single dad taking his kid to a park is treated compared to a mom. People think it's weird.

Click to shrink...

i know its already happened with men and children. It hadnt occurred to me that it might happen between men and women before i saw this thread.

 

[lmcfigs]

Honestly, I have a hard time believing that attitude. I can only interpret it as disingenuous ("I had noooo idea... honest... I swear... really...")

Click to shrink...

You may be right. I think that might be part of it too.

 

[psychowave]

Deflecting the person instead of addressing their points. Looks like were done here.

Click to shrink...

Your point is worthless because you have no clue what you're talking about.

 

[Jerry]

Your point is worthless because you have no clue what you're talking about.

Click to shrink...

Whatever you say honey