"Women who don't like getting hugged by people they don't want to be hugged by are crazy" is not an "agree to disagree" type of thing, y'know?
Associated Press: In wake of Weinstein, men wonder if hugging women still OK
- Thread starter FriskyCanuck
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Seeing something is one thing, looking is another, and even THEN, intent matters. Generally it's not appropriate to check someone out in a work setting. You can see it, and you will see it if you interact with them. We don't go through life with actual blinders on. But it's best to be passive versus active about it. Does that make sense?
I'm just curious. Are you an expert or is this all armchair stuff?
Tying the clothing to the person's overall appearance is where I think things get risky and it's where I draw the line on complements, save for co-workers I know really well and for special occasions where everyone is dressed in their best. Just tell them "That's a cool shirt." or "Those are awesome boots!" or "I like that color." Don't even append things like "on you" to the statements, keep the focus solely on the garment itself. Saying someone "looks nice" is ambiguous and the person could take that to mean you think they look sexy or are thinking about them in an inappropriate way. If someone has been reported for saying "That's a cool shirt." to someone I'd love to read about it because I find that very unlikely. And I should note that this isn't something I've started doing in light of recent exposure of crimes, it's just what I've always done. Commenting on people's appearance without being asked is pretty unnecessary.
It's crazy that people have trouble understanding stuff like this.
No. I've told you to stop using a term that was explicitly rooted in misogynistic history, and instead of acknowledging that, you started talking about some unrelated syndrome, which had nothing to do with what we were saying (hence me calling it a deflection).
Worse, you're maintaining your idea that people who are uncomfortable with hugs from strangers suffer from a mental disorder, which is pretty offensive in its own right.
Exactly, I run into this a lot with older women who tend to view me more as like an office “son” and they’ll go for the hug sometimes. I would NEVER initiate a hug with anyone at work unless they go for it first, always do hand shake.
I guess you're leaving the thread but for anyone else wondering about the backlash against the term hysteria: it's a concept that has been historically used to oppress and dismiss women.
In the wake of women exposing rapists and assaulters, men are afraid of asking women how their weekends went.
I imagine that if women actually held men's lifes and careers in the palms of their hands, they would probably not get raped and assaulted. In fact, if women had this much power, men would actually face consequences.
I imagine that if women actually held men's lifes and careers in the palms of their hands, they would probably not get raped and assaulted. In fact, if women had this much power, men would actually face consequences.
yeah i think you have to declare that at customs on the way back
That's ridiculous.
But I don't think these types of really dumb claims are actually that common? I feel like they're always communicated via heresay: "I've got to be careful, I know a guy who lost his job over benign things X Y and Z." I would hazard a guess that the actual situation is quite a bit different.
In other news, I've often asked (and been asked) "can I have a hug?" before parting ways with a friend, including co-workers. It's a totally acceptable question.
I hope everyone uncomfortable with hugs/touching would be comfortable voicing so when in that situation. And I don't mean this in a way that it's our own fault for getting hugged. Just that people wouldn't feel forced to accept hugs and touching when they don't want it. And people shouldn't take offense either when refused a hug or mock/shame that person, it's not personal (atleast all the time).
It's normal to hug people, but it's also normal that everyone don't like it. For whatever reason it is, it's valid. So everyone should understand that. And hug isn't an excuse or a permission to cop a feel.
It's normal to hug people, but it's also normal that everyone don't like it. For whatever reason it is, it's valid. So everyone should understand that. And hug isn't an excuse or a permission to cop a feel.
Hysteria doesn’t come from sociology ffs
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hysteria
Nice try pretending like you know what you’re talking about tho
It's not an idea, it's a fact. I'm sorry you find it offensive but I can't do anything about that. You're more than welcome to write to the American Psychological Association and the World Psychiatric Association in an effort to change their definition of anxiety disorders. I however am not a representative of them, merely a scholar.
Halfway expert? I'll be getting a phd in abnormal psychology in just over a year. And a lot of these topics are still fresh in my mind from studies and exams anyway, so I like to think I have some point to make.
I apologize, but I don't know Greek or the history of that word. In fact, I'm shit at history. Like I said, before this thread I didn't even know it was rooted from the word uterus. So from now on, I'll just call it a mass overreaction. Is that alright?
...I'm gonna pretend that's not a wikipedia link. Here, try this paper instead:
Representation of illness and construction of the difference between the sexes. From women's diseases to nervous disorders, hysteria for example (Physical illnesses as a reflection of the ills of 19th century society). (2000). ROMANTISME, 30(110), 73-87.
In any case.....I should REALLY leave this thread now. -_-
Is it ridiculous? Pretend you're a woman at an office (or a man, for that matter, I don't think gender is really relevant here), and some guy asks you "what did you do over the weekend?" Maybe you don't feel comfortable discussing your personal life with this particular coworker. If he keeps asking over and over, you're going to be uncomfortable.
Now, is going directly to HR the proper response? Probably not. There are many ways to address this issue, and the article gives no indication of whether any were tried. But the important point is that this question made this person uncomfortable and therefore he shouldn't have been asking it. A fact which the guy clearly wasn't aware of.
Some women will take hugging wrong and see it as inappropriate if by accident you become too aggressive with the hug. I normally just greet women I don’t know with a handshake, wave or nod. Same thing apply to men.
I recalled during football practice some of our teammates and coaches would give they boys a firm smack to the gluteus maximus. The context is of course different, but some guys can get of to that. Nevertheless, the method I use has worked for me and I do not see why anyone will hug random people without permission unless you live in a culture that see that sort of contact as appropriate.
I recalled during football practice some of our teammates and coaches would give they boys a firm smack to the gluteus maximus. The context is of course different, but some guys can get of to that. Nevertheless, the method I use has worked for me and I do not see why anyone will hug random people without permission unless you live in a culture that see that sort of contact as appropriate.
Don’t dismiss my link. You told a fat lie. Just stop and leave like you said you would.
If you could actually establish that it's an overreaction, sure. But you can't. Because you've never lived as a woman and don't know what it's like.
"It's Wikipedia" is an argument only in the situation where the page being cited has no references. This page has plenty.
If people are going to dismiss practically word-to-word definitions of things straight from the DSM (In case you don't know, the DSM stands for "Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders") as either "crazy" or "offensive", I'm going to dismiss a Wikipedia link. Did you even know editors on there couldn't decide how to represent Jodie Whittaker's Doctor on the front page for five fucking months?
It's a word with a weak sociological basis. Deal with it.
I also provided a reference. Gonna take a quick guess he didn't even look it up.
This doesn’t happen. Also awful, awful positioning to take in a thread about women find uncomfortable (and have potentially always found uncomfortable but didn’t speak up about it for various reasons and now they do)
The concept of Hysteria is not based in sociology. Stop lying
The text you quoted from the DSM didn't even discount what she said nor what the Wikipedia page talks about. You're trying to appeal to authority but you don't even understand what your authority is saying.
What's there to look up? That the word hysteria exists? Nobody is arguing otherwise. I don't understand what point you're trying to make here.
1) You talk big for someone who didn't know a well known sociological term thats been retired and why so (like many things in the DSM, its constantly changing and being updated, and as you already know you need to keep on top of that shit)
2) as a a fellow academic its insulting/elitist to ask people to look up referenced peer reviewed journals and articles when a majority are gated/paywalled at a significant price
not everyone has access to the same university resources as you
Is the reference available online? If not, I'm going to have to give Potater the edge here.
Ultimately, the fact is that you kind of just embarrassingly tried to look smart by mocking someone for using Wikipedia.
My completely pulled out of my ass theory is that there's a cultural factor here at play. I think Americans like to put things in categories and that they are not as friendly as they think they are.
My completely unscientific view is that if the two extremes are cold and efficient or familiar and friendly, then the Americans fall into more cold side of things, and that plays well into the tendency to place things into boxes or categories.
Hence the confusion in the article. Interactions have to be placed in boxes and rules HAVE to be spelled out. It's not bad it's just how the culture works. There was a book called "When Culture Collide" which is about how different cultures do business written by a British guy. Very good, explains how different countries reach consensus. Americans tend to fall into the Germany spectrum according to the book.
My completely unscientific view is that if the two extremes are cold and efficient or familiar and friendly, then the Americans fall into more cold side of things, and that plays well into the tendency to place things into boxes or categories.
Hence the confusion in the article. Interactions have to be placed in boxes and rules HAVE to be spelled out. It's not bad it's just how the culture works. There was a book called "When Culture Collide" which is about how different cultures do business written by a British guy. Very good, explains how different countries reach consensus. Americans tend to fall into the Germany spectrum according to the book.
That's fair. So, "I like your dress" is fine, "You look nice today" is not.
Got it.
The line has to be crossed somewhere. I mean is it sexual harassment if the context was that I am in a bar talking to a woman and she touches my knee? Im a bit LTTP on this thread but I think context is everything in determining these things as it's subjective from person to person.
Don't initiate a hug then, if someone else does remind yourself to keep your hands above the waist. It's less work to be non-invading than to be invading.
Thats dumb of her to expect you to hug random people you barely know
If they want a hug so much, let them initiate
It's not. It's really not. If you earnestly believe so then I would encourage you to elaborate.
Of course context and subjectivity are important, and in that instance if you were fine with it it’s obviously not harassment.
However, people also tend to assume that someone is okay with physical contact before doing it, and people generally have a poor reaction when they’re told they can’t do something or that the thing they were doing makes someone else uncomfortable. Just because YOU (generic you, not you Samurai) think it’s totally innocuous to get close and touch someone’s arm while talking or hug goodbye after every interaction doesn’t mean the other person sees it that way, and their comfort (especially in a place they frequent like work or school) trumps any desire to you have make that contact.
But like I said, a lot of people don’t like to be told they can’t do things (or shouldn’t, in this case) or that the thing they were doing the whole time was making someone else uncomfortable. And they especially don’t like it when other people are allowed to do these things because of a difference in context or relationship, they feel like they were denied something. I think it comes with being raised in societies that generally tells men that everything is theirs by right and shows through action that there are little to no consequences for this stuff. Well there are consequences, and there’s no more excuses to be ignorant and just assuming that what you’re doing is okay.
It’s really not, it’s actually very sensible.
That's how I see it at least and I'd include the "why" as well so they don't need to wonder about it, even if it's just "because it's a cool color". Plus, what is someone supposed to say in response to "You look nice today."? It's so one-sided. The only options are "Thanks", which doesn't lead to further conversation, or "I know", which is really egotistical and also doesn't lead to conversation. Even if they complement you back you end up at a dead end conversation.
However, commenting on why you like a specific garment or even hair style opens things up for further small talk at least. A woman I work with wore some cool looking boots one day and I told her they were cool. This lead to her telling me a story about getting them years ago but then forgetting about them and then finding them randomly in a closet because she was moving things for a renovation. People like telling their story so why not set them up with an opportunity to do it? You'll get to know them better and possibly make friendships in the process.
I've been working with women in an office setting for over 10 years and worked a retail clothing job with a majority female staff for 5 years before that. During that whole time I've managed to not only not sexually harassment a single women, but I've also made friends with many of them. I know my shit on this subject but you're free to think it's insane if you want to.
I might respond more later. I just got off work after a stressful day at work and blurted out a drive by post. Sorry about that.
I feel like such a stranger in a strange land reading that post that I think I'm going to show it to a fair number of the women in my life to see how they feel about it.
I suppose the thing that shocked me is the expectation that I have to protect against the possibility that something I say could even imply that someone is attractive.
It's entirely possible that many of your female friends or co-workers respond positively to compliments about their appearances.
That doesn't mean everyone does, however, and it's not insane of that poster to suggest keeping it neutral about clothing etc. I hope you understand that. Also, a lot of women might smile and say thank you if you compliment their appearance, simply to avoid confrontation when they're in fact uncomfortable. This happens all the time. Keep that in mind.
A good rule of thumb I've heard is that you should compliment choices the person intentionally made. So "you have pretty eyes" is commenting on someone's looks and is not OK, but "I really like your shirt" is commenting on someone's choice of fashion and should generally be OK. Though obviously you can still take this too far and be a weird creep.
Good. context matters. Maybe you live in an area where women prefer vague compliments over specific ones. But for now there are several women in the thread, myself included, who agree with him.
I would also invite you to consider that women already have to watch everything we say to make sure it's not received as flirtatious
Don't feel comfortable sharing your personal life?
"What did you do over the weekend?"
"Eh, not much."
*Conversation ends*
Of course, as I said, I suspect there are details we don't know about. If the conversation went:
"What did you do over the weekend?"
"Eh, not much."
"Wait, then why the heck did you turn down my offer to go to a bar Saturday evening? I wanted to buy you a drink."
...that is very clearly a problem. But it's not the same thing as "asking a coworker about her weekend," and to describe it as such is misleading. Furthermore, it ends up convincing men that they should keep interaction with women at work to a minimum, which ultimately hurts women's ability to advance in their careers.
Idk, my coworkers ask me what my weekend plans are all the time, but I work at a 15-person company, so maybe larger places are different. That sounds like a sucky environment though.
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No one ever asks me what I did over the week-end, but I usually get asked, "did you have a nice week-end?", which is better. Because it's a "yes/no/'twas all right" question and I can elaborate if I want to or not. :P It's essentially just a "how's it going". #themoreyouknowaboutsocialinteractions
Yeah, unfortunately we're just speculating at this point. Though I would contend that if your first example happens consistently every Monday, it could still be a problem as-is (since the guy clearly isn't taking the hint).
I'm not so sure many are uncomfortable with it, or it wouldn't be a social norm.
I see the brush you are trying to paint me with, but you are missing my point. Her exact words were "I wish I didn't have to kiss another fucking stranger again in my life." Which she has the onus to do.
I absolutely understand that it could be perceived as rude, but then blaming and calling out the rest of society because of that seems unfounded.