And that's perfectly reasonable. Treat everyone with the respectful distance you would a stranger and you won't overstep. I realize you may not want to do that but its away to go.
Associated Press: In wake of Weinstein, men wonder if hugging women still OK
- Thread starter FriskyCanuck
- Start date
Id say so. If its sheer or shows a bit of cleavage then its a creepy comment. If its just a regular dress then thats still weird, what are you interested in womens fashion or something?
New haircut
New glasses
New sneakers
The only safe things to compliment a female colleague on.
It's hard to follow because some contact is perfectly acceptable in the proper context. Unless they're a psychopath, yes it is hard for a normal functioning adult to not express empathy. Why is that so hard to understand?
This is actually a notable problem at PAX. People will just run up and hug you because they think they can just touch your body because they're being "nice.
There really shouldn't be any universal rule regarding this stuff, it's all depending on context. Complimenting someone else's outfit can be proper and flattering and positive while at the same time can also be creepy and demeaning, depending on various factors.
Just ask the first time, it's not that hard. There are ways of asking without coming off as an awkward idiot.
"Can I get a hug?" or "Need a hug?"
Honestly, if you are unsure if they'll freak out about you hugging them, you're probably not on the terms where you can hug them yet.
"Can I get a hug?" or "Need a hug?"
Honestly, if you are unsure if they'll freak out about you hugging them, you're probably not on the terms where you can hug them yet.
See, I was gonna say this, but then I thought back to the position of power thing, and the Louis CK thing.
It's kind of difficult for a woman to say "no, you can't hug me." without people thinking she's a "bitch". So it's kind of like a pressure if you even ask the question and she doesn't want to.
Other than like shaking hands I'd say just don't touch a woman in any capacity in any sort of professional environment. If they initiate a hug or whatever then fine. But besides that don't fucking risk it. It's not too difficult.
Ehh just I hugged someone I know from work and have worked on some projects with. Hadn’t seen her in a while, she was near my cubicle talking to one of my coworkers so we said hi and hugged and then made small talk for a bit. Wasn’t weird because neither of us made it weird.
And there's an example; hugging a coworker that you are not only close with, but haven't seen for awhile (or will not see for awhile), is still a pretty normal occurrence.
"Nah, I'm good" or "I'm not really a fan of being hugged" are pretty natural and don't come across as "bitchy."
On this note: Normal is relative and one reason why I hate the word "normal". Normal to one person isn't normal to another.
That said, considering how big this thread is with discussions about this topic sort of proves that this discussion is needed and can't be dismissed by "All these guys sound like this other dude who is insane" especially when said insane guy is an extreme example and almost everyone sane agrees Mike Pence is an idiot for saying that.
The only men who say this garbage and act clueless are the ones who would possibly commit sexual harassment. Or already have and now feel guilty for contributing to the culture.
This seem pretty common with Latinos here in California. Shit, we hug the men too.
Because unless you ask you have no idea whether someone wants you to be touching them. It doesnt matter what your intentions are, you have no idea whether they want to be in an environment with someone who puts them in that position. How is it hard to stand that you shouldnt be just touching someone?
I know many people who would disagree with you.
I'm just saying, this is a real pressure women have to deal with. It's easier for a man to be non-personable and stoic and unfriendly and still succeed in life.
In fairness, some people think any rejection, even from people who naturally don't like being hugged or touched at all is an insult on their character and thus get responses like "What a Bitch".
And of course if the person is in a position of power, it can cause even more issues like Firings. (being able to prove you were fired because of your gender/because you're a woman that refused to hug your boss is pretty hard to do without witnesses and all)
Ah, yeah, I get what you mean. To be honest, these men whose worlds are shattering and who don't know left from right and up from down anymore after a few visible hollywood sexual harassment cases prooooooooooobably weren't treating women equally and throwing around promotions to them in the first place.
Every time I hug someone, I squeeze them to death. That way, I get the hug I wanted and there are no first-hand witnesses to ruin my future career.
This reminds me of a time I was at a Six Flags. A woman approached me, grabbed my head and turned it sideways. She licked my cheek from top to bottom, then backed away and laughed. That was a little bit of a social faux pas in my estimation.
I hope this post helps you all navigate social encounters in your daily lives.
This reminds me of a time I was at a Six Flags. A woman approached me, grabbed my head and turned it sideways. She licked my cheek from top to bottom, then backed away and laughed. That was a little bit of a social faux pas in my estimation.
I hope this post helps you all navigate social encounters in your daily lives.
So this is how "Demolition Man" got started.....
I see this at work all the time. There are touchy folks and non-touchy folks. Older folks particularly tend to be more touchy. Of course in the South there are also lots of "terms of endearment" if you will, like Honey, Sweetie, etc that can be interpreted in different ways if you are not familiar with them. While I agree that the OP article is a bit overblown, this is a very real issue for a lot of people. Especially since just one person who really reacts badly to treatment others accept can blow it up on social media. You can't know every single persons hot button nor can you realistically expect to have to solicit consent on every single interaction.
I see this at work all the time. There are touchy folks and non-touchy folks. Older folks particularly tend to be more touchy. Of course in the South there are also lots of "terms of endearment" if you will, like Honey, Sweetie, etc that can be interpreted in different ways if you are not familiar with them. While I agree that the OP article is a bit overblown, this is a very real issue for a lot of people. Especially since just one person who really reacts badly to treatment others accept can blow it up on social media. You can't know every single persons hot button nor can you realistically expect to have to solicit consent on every single interaction.
To be truthful, it’s probably best to just discuss work and only work with your colleagues because although 99 out of 100 people might be okay with you complimenting them, all it takes is that 1 person who might not like it.
This goes without saying that you shouldn’t touch anyone, make sexual innuendo, belittle, harass or objectify anyone physically or verbally.
This goes without saying that you shouldn’t touch anyone, make sexual innuendo, belittle, harass or objectify anyone physically or verbally.
Most women aren't going to come out and say, hey, your constant comments about my physical appearance at work are making me feel uncomfortable and I'd like to bring it to your attention at work so I can make the situation even more uncomfortable for me. Just because a woman doesn't say no, stop, doesn't mean they are cool with shit. Hell, lots of these women who were groped or sexually assaulted by guys like Weinstein didn't say no or stop because most women are in a state of shock when they are being sexually assaulted or harassed or afraid that they'll be fired or reprimanded. Some women are OK with being complimented all the time, others are not. Most women can't leave their house without being creeped on by dudes several times a day and, guess what, depending on their mood, they might not want to have to deal with that stuff at work. There's other shit you can talk to your co-workers about other than their physical appearance or dress. No one is saying don't talk to women or never touch women, but not all women are cool with men constantly talking to them about their physical appearance. Cute shoes might sound innocent, but if he/she's been dealing with every dude in a four block radius creeping on her or throwing out cat calls to her on her way to work, all of sudden that innocent comment just compounds frustration.
Is everyone asking themselves if hugging is harassment? Sounds like you are already the president of hyperbole land.
Yes, Normal is relative. But also like why should your interactions with female co-workers ect... be any different than male ones? Just respect their space and treat them as they want to be treated. Communicate with your words. Watch people's body language and if you sense they might be uncomfortable apologize sincerely. This isn't rocket science. The fact that this discussion seemingly needs to be had for some men says a lot about our overall culture and how young boys are introduced to toxic masculine concepts.
"US culture is too PC, can't even do an ass grab here and there!"
These are the same type who would love to offend people in the public or behave like there isnt any decency.
These are the same type who would love to offend people in the public or behave like there isnt any decency.
whoa hahaha
Seriously though, handshakes are the go to but you should have the social awareness to know what is and what is not acceptable
At the same time this might be ambiguous and since a lot of men are not to great with social interaction... chose the safe option, but don't be weird.
Yeah let the other person initiate the hug if anything, but yeah don't hug coworkers.
I like hugs... I don't hug random people though.
I hate hand shakes... to many people with cold and damp hands.
I wish fist bumping was a accepted form of greeting.
I hate hand shakes... to many people with cold and damp hands.
I wish fist bumping was a accepted form of greeting.
There will never be a consensus on what is and isn't appropriate when it comes to contact or conversation, with the other sex or even with the same sex. There's too much difference from person to person as to what is and isn't appropriate and the definitions of those things change too often between generations and decades.
Just use your words. If someone does something that gels with you the wrong way just kindly say something about it. If it continues to be a problem talk to the appropriate person at work. If you immediately contract HR after a hug you feel weird about for whatever reason you're just as much a part of the problem as anyone else. Give people the space to make mistakes, give yourself the confidence to say you don't appreciate something and let by gone be by gones, unless you're problems are just being ignored or things escalate. This idea that interactions must be strictly policed and must adhere to a certain format will never work. You can't even get a consensus on whether people should eat food anymore, something like work and social interactions is always going to depend on the viewpoints of the people involved.
Just use your words. If someone does something that gels with you the wrong way just kindly say something about it. If it continues to be a problem talk to the appropriate person at work. If you immediately contract HR after a hug you feel weird about for whatever reason you're just as much a part of the problem as anyone else. Give people the space to make mistakes, give yourself the confidence to say you don't appreciate something and let by gone be by gones, unless you're problems are just being ignored or things escalate. This idea that interactions must be strictly policed and must adhere to a certain format will never work. You can't even get a consensus on whether people should eat food anymore, something like work and social interactions is always going to depend on the viewpoints of the people involved.
I hug both male and female coworkers. They are friends. One of them doesnt like hugs so I dont. Hugging random strangers though? Dont do that.
I honestly stopped doing that after a female friend told me some guy at her job put his arm around her shoulder for a group photo and it made her feel uncomfortable. So...yeah, I honestly did that or around the waist when I was taking a picture with someone without giving it a second thought. Maybe I'm overreacting but I'd rather look like a "weird" guy for not doing that rather than being a creep by doing that without knowing if the other person thinks if that's okay.
Don't know if I'll get flamed or "are you fucking serious?" reactions because of this post, but I wanted to share my thoughts on this matter, since the whole "grab around the waist" thing is something I thought about the other day.
Okay, see, this is a bit weird for me too. I have gotten weird looks when doing this because I have a beard and I clearly have seen the "ugh...okay" looks on the girl's face, but at the same time I really don't like the feel of makeup on my face, and a coworker at my old job really applied a lot of it, so it would transfer to my face every morning. I just shake hands with a smile to be done with it.
I miss when women would come up to me and touch or hug me randomly. Was great.
So yeah, that's some bad advice there.
Never said they should be. I believe in treating everyone equally and treating them the way you would want to be treated. I grew up like that and I wish everyone else was like that (but that's as likely as World Peace sadly ;_;)
Problem here is, some people can't read social cues easily, reading body language etc. However if it is made clear that you may have stepped a line, regardless of who, when, where, you should apologize. I've always believed that.
I just had to respond to your whole be normal thing because as shown in this thread, normal is relative. What is normal in one place isn't normal in another.
But yes, treat others like how you would want to be treated but also treat them with respect and dignity. Treat everyone equally regardless of gender, race, sexual orientation, religion, etc.
If everyone did that, we'd all be much much happier. Maybe one day...
I guess I wasn't too sure on what exactly Al Franken was being accused of in the first place.Yes. She's claiming that he took a "handful of flesh" on her waist and that she wouldn't even let her husband touch her like that in public.
https://www.theatlantic.com/politic...ens-accusers-because-he-groped-me-too/547691/
I wish more people hugged me, yes.
“University of Southern California sociologist Carolann Peterson says men do need to recognize that a sudden arm around the shoulder or a pat on the butt isn’t the innocuous gesture some might have thought it was, and it can make women uncomfortable, even if they don’t say so at the time”
That quote just doesn’t reconcile with me. I can’t think of “sudden arm around a shoulder” but a was at a retirement party and a women put an arm around my shoulder so I did the same as that felt more comfortable than around a waist. I don’t see how it is comparable to a pat on the butt ever being ok.
I also have to feelthere must be more to the story with regards to the guy asking what the person did over the weekend. Maybe there was a stalkerish vibe or they had previously been in a relationship and he had trouble letting go or maybe she has psychiatric problems. I don’t want to speculate. In all my years of working with many different personality types, nobody had ever been offended with like.
How was your weekend?
Good, saw Star Wars! Snoke is one of the aliens from Indy 4!
Unless it was like this
How was your weekend?
Good, saw starwars.
Did you see it with you boy friend? He’s a tool I d make you happier you know.
That quote just doesn’t reconcile with me. I can’t think of “sudden arm around a shoulder” but a was at a retirement party and a women put an arm around my shoulder so I did the same as that felt more comfortable than around a waist. I don’t see how it is comparable to a pat on the butt ever being ok.
I also have to feelthere must be more to the story with regards to the guy asking what the person did over the weekend. Maybe there was a stalkerish vibe or they had previously been in a relationship and he had trouble letting go or maybe she has psychiatric problems. I don’t want to speculate. In all my years of working with many different personality types, nobody had ever been offended with like.
How was your weekend?
Good, saw Star Wars! Snoke is one of the aliens from Indy 4!
Unless it was like this
How was your weekend?
Good, saw starwars.
Did you see it with you boy friend? He’s a tool I d make you happier you know.
Yes, there is no consensus and that's the point. Because we can't be certain that everyone is ok with hugs, then don't assume anyone is. That's the real lesson here. If your offices has 10 women and 9 of them are long time colleagues and are ok with hugging you (even initiate them themselves), don't assume the 10th and newest member is ok with hugging you as well until you either ask or know them well/long enough that hugs come naturally for both of you.
I wasn't trying to sell you on don't hug work people.
I reiterated that my statement was "At work".
I hug work people I have personal relations with outside of work.
Are everyone who want to touch people are automatically perverts?
I leave it to you to ponder on this question god-emperor of hyperbole.
Peterson is describing something different than your example. In your example, you reciprocated what she initiated. Peterson is describing uninvited physical contact. Now, not every woman will react the same way to that, but for the women that it bothers, it puts them in an uncomfortable situation, and often they feel they should "play nice" and get along. Does that difference make sense?
I'm not just talking about hugs, there's a plethora of things that people can take some offense to or misconstrue. It could be a playful jab in the arm, a comment, a joke or so many other things. You shouldn't be afraid of being you, whoever that may be , with someone to the point that you start wondering if saying "Hi", "Nice pants/dress/outfit" or whatever else is going to get you fired. People that are afraid do stupid things, a workplace full of people fearful of being themselves to at least most employees is going to end badly for everyone involved.
Besides, all that tenth person has to say is "Please don't""I'm not comfortable with that" or whatever. If it's still a problem then go beyond that, but give people some leeway, please. That's all I'm saying.