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Astros GM suspended for one year after it was found that team cheated using technology to win World Series in 2017. (UPDATE: GM and manager fired)

NinjaScooter

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,149
It seems like the only fair thing to do. Everyone in that clubhouse knew what was going on and were more than happy to ride along so they could get a ring. The voters accuse Bonds and Clemens specifically of cheating the game due to performance enhancing drugs. But in the case of the Astros, they literally did cheat the game. And as it stands, Verlander would be the most notable name that such a move would affect.
There's also the added caveat that Verlander is almost certainly juicing his balls off.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,108
Eh, I don't know. They're not banned from the game. Guys like McGuire and ARod are poster children for PED use, and one is currently a hitting coach for a team and the other is a broadcaster for the sport. Luhnow and Hinch may not find their ways back to GM or manager positions, but it also wouldn't surprise me if they did.
Comparing players’ jobs post-player to a manager or GM seems like apples and oranges. Players have to move on and look for other work at some point, but for a manager, being a manager is likely what you want until you retire, unless you want to do something like be a GM. Hinch might eventually get other jobs, but if it’s not as a manager, it’s still a fairly harsh consequence. Will he look back and think it was all worth it if he never gets hired as a manager again, or if it takes a long time to do so? I think the prospect of getting suspended, fired, and having your future up in the air is going to be enough to cause managers and GMs around the league to take this kind of thing seriously. And if not, they probably wouldn’t be dissuaded by much of anything.

And players, as well. Surely many of them will think twice, knowing they may get their manager/GM fired, among other things.
 

NinjaScooter

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,149
This. MLBPA would fight like hell against any punishment for this. Manfred doesn't want a part of that fight, especially at a time when tensions are high between both parties and there is a CBA being negotiated.
Yeah. The players also have the ability to claim they were "just following orders" when this is something that came from the coaching staff. A player could claim they went along with it out of fear of losing playing time or a roster spot. In this case, I think they'd be 100% full of shit, but that's always a factor when you are going to try and penalize players in situations like this.
 

Wonderment

Moderator
Oct 27, 2017
10,955
Thread title updated.

Beltran with the mets now, possibly under getting-ready-for-sale mode, curious to see how and where this gets brought up.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,009
Comparing players’ jobs post-player to a manager or GM seems like apples and oranges. Players have to move on and look for other work at some point, but for a manager, being a manager is likely what you want until you retire, unless you want to do something like be a GM. Hinch might eventually get other jobs, but if it’s not as a manager, it’s still a fairly harsh consequence. Will he look back and think it was all worth it if he never gets hired as a manager again, or if it takes a long time to do so? I think the prospect of getting suspended, fired, and having your future up in the air is going to be enough to cause managers and GMs around the league to take this kind of thing seriously. And if not, they probably wouldn’t be dissuaded by much of anything.

And players, as well. Surely many of them will think twice, knowing they may get their manager/GM fired, among other things.
The point I was trying to make is that Luhnow and Hinch aren't banned from the game. They can still find jobs within the MLB even after they've served their suspensions. Doesn't matter if it's lower on the rung, they can still find their way back and can still get paid. Despite being a cheater, Luhnow is still a really smart MBA-type that any analytics or baseball ops department would love to have on.

And again on top of that, Luhnow and Hinch will still have their World Series rings even after all is said and done.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,108
The point I was trying to make is that Luhnow and Hinch aren't banned from the game. They can still find jobs within the MLB even after they've served their suspensions. Doesn't matter if it's lower on the rung, they can still find their way back and can still get paid. Despite being a cheater, Luhnow is still a really smart MBA-type that any analytics or baseball ops department would love to have on.

And again on top of that, Luhnow and Hinch will still have their World Series rings even after all is said and done.
The assertion I was responding to was the idea that, because this punishment is supposedly not harsh enough, teams will gladly trade these punishments for a title. But my point is teams are made up of self-interested individuals, like players, managers and GMs. These are the ones who are ultimately responsible for either implementing or preventing these kinds of schemes. My point is I don’t think it’s true that most people in Hinch’s or Luhnow’s positions will think, either consciously or subconsciously, that the success they had was worth what they are going through now. So I question if, say, Dave Roberts or Brett Boone will look at this and start to think that the downside to cheating will be worth it, and that turning a blind eye to this kind of thing is the way to go if it might mean a World Series.

I’m not naive enough to think 100% deterrence will ever be achieved, but it’s weird to think that “teams” will view this as worth the victories. Do you really think that Hinch will lay his head on his pillow tonight and feel like it was all worth it?
 

rsfour

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,771
Gotta love being part of a union where your fellow players fucked you over and weren’t really punished for it, instead protected
 

EN1GMA

Avenger
Nov 7, 2017
1,976
The two teams that were caught cheating just so happen to win WS in consecutive seasons.

They will forever have an asterisk besides their titles.

Red Sox should be contracted and send the Astros back to the NL.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,009
The assertion I was responding to was the idea that, because this punishment is supposedly not harsh enough, teams will gladly trade these punishments for a title. But my point is teams are made up of self-interested individuals, like players, managers and GMs. These are the ones who are ultimately responsible for either implementing or preventing these kinds of schemes. My point is I don’t think it’s true that most people in Hinch’s or Luhnow’s positions will think, either consciously or subconsciously, that the success they had was worth what they are going through now. So I question if, say, Dave Roberts or Brett Boone will look at this and start to think that the downside to cheating will be worth it, and that turning a blind eye to this kind of thing is the way to go if it might mean a World Series.
Okay, sure. But teams will find that it's worth it because only the GM and manager got the boot. Players, who knowingly and willingly partook in the offense, got off scot-free. Other front office and coaching staff got off scot-free as well. Jim Crane got a WS title and whatever additional revenue that entailed in the next two seasons. He didn't even have to fire Luhnow and Hinch because the league thought a suspension was sufficient. So in the end, all he lost was two fall guys, $5 million, and some draft picks. So yes, I do think that teams will see what happened here and think, hey it's not that bad.

I’m not naive enough to think 100% deterrence will ever be achieved, but it’s weird to think that “teams” will view this as worth the victories. Do you really think that Hinch will lay his head on his pillow tonight and feel like it was all worth it?
You're mistaking "teams" as just the GM, manager, and players. MLB teams are massive organizations, and if they see that only a few people in baseball operations get the boot, why shouldn't they try to cheat to win?

But to your point, I don't know Hinch at all. What I do know is that he was willing enough to cheat his way to a WS ring. He then got a contract extension with a raise in the middle of 2018. Maybe the only thing he regrets is that they got caught way too soon for him to reap all the benefits. Either way, you and I are probably making wild assumptions about how he feels right now.
 

Inyourprime

Member
Oct 25, 2017
275
This is fine for a punishment. The 5 mil is the most they could do with the current rules in place, and the draft picks will hurt them down the road.

Don’t know what more they could’ve done. At least the two guys who could have stopped all this no longer have jobs.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,108
Okay, sure. But teams will find that it's worth it because only the GM and manager got the boot. Players, who knowingly and willingly partook in the offense, got off scot-free. Other front office and coaching staff got off scot-free as well. Jim Crane got a WS title and whatever additional revenue that entailed in the next two seasons. He didn't even have to fire Luhnow and Hinch because the league thought a suspension was sufficient. So in the end, all he lost was two fall guys, $5 million, and some draft picks. So yes, I do think that teams will see what happened here and think, hey it's not that bad.



You're mistaking "teams" as just the GM, manager, and players. MLB teams are massive organizations, and if they see that only a few people in baseball operations get the boot, why shouldn't they try to cheat to win?

But to your point, I don't know Hinch at all. What I do know is that he was willing enough to cheat his way to a WS ring. He then got a contract extension with a raise in the middle of 2018. Maybe the only thing he regrets is that they got caught way too soon for him to reap all the benefits. Either way, you and I are probably making wild assumptions about how he feels right now.
1. “Only the GM and manager got the boot.” “Only the GM and manager?” Those are the two highest profile positions in the organization outside of players and the ownership. And there was no evidence here that the GM knew about what was happening. And Hinch didn’t participate in it, and even destroyed the equipment on two occasions. They were still suspended for a year and fired. Cora is almost certainly going to be punished even harsher. So organizationally, who is incentivized to cheat, or to allow cheating, here?

2. Players: true, but MLB didn’t want the headache of handing out all of those suspensions and dealing with appeals. But ultimately, they know that the players couldn’t get away with this without coordination and complacency from the coaching staff, which is where the punishment happened.

3. Other front office: why would anyone else in the front office be punished? How is their boss being fired not a pretty strong deterrent?

4. Coaching staff: Cora is about to get punished, probably harsher than anyone.

5. Jim Crane: he didn’t know about it, and I believe it, because I can’t imagine an owner being involved in something like this. So I don’t know how much of a message needs to be sent to him, but these punishments, and the fact that he is now going to have to hire a new GM and a new manager, is not nothing.

6. I didn’t say teams are only those positions. Please don’t misquote me. But most of the people in the “massive organizations” aren’t really in a position to be responsible for this kind of thing, other than the players. So why would this incentivize anyone, other than maybe the players (who I don’t think are actually emboldened by this), to cheat?

7. Hinch: it’s weird that you can speculate on how faceless individuals on other teams will react to this, but then play the “I don’t know him” card on Hinch. Of course Hinch only regrets that his team got punished and he got caught. But that doesn’t mean he is happy with this “trade.” I doubt he is. And I’m ok speculating on it.
 

RC0101

Member
Oct 27, 2017
473
Overall the penalties aren’t strong enough. Astros will just focus on international players for the next two years.

It’s pretty depressing knowing that 2017 Dodgers team should have gone down as one of the best ever.
 

Bessy67

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,977
Good on MLB and the Astro's owner for coming down hard on cheating. Too bad Rodger Goodell and Robert Kraft don't have the same level of guts.
 

freshlysqueezed

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,660
NoVA
Honestly, these cheating fucks deserve far worse. They created a system that poisoned the game for three straight seasons, with the two teams employing it making the last three World Series and winning two of them. This is worse than the Black Sox. This is worse than Pete Rose. This is worse than Bonds. Every single player in that dugout was in on it, and either took full advantage of it or consented to it. They're all cheating fucks, and they should all get a lifetime ban. Not a single one of them should ever get into the Hall of Fame. They fucking ruined baseball.

So happy the Nats overcame that shit, but they should have played against the Rays or Yankees.

The two teams that were caught cheating just so happen to win WS in consecutive seasons.

They will forever have an asterisk besides their titles.
And the only reason why the Nats won was because they caught on after the Rays and Yanks complained, and were changing signals constantly.
 

Sanjuro

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,659
Massachusetts
Honestly, these cheating fucks deserve far worse. They created a system that poisoned the game for three straight seasons, with the two teams employing it making the last three World Series and winning two of them. This is worse than the Black Sox. This is worse than Pete Rose. This is worse than Bonds. Every single player in that dugout was in on it, and either took full advantage of it or consented to it. They're all cheating fucks, and they should all get a lifetime ban. Not a single one of them should ever get into the Hall of Fame. They fucking ruined baseball.

So happy the Nats overcame that shit, but they should have played against the Rays or Yankees.



And the only reason why the Nats won was because they caught on after the Rays and Yanks complained, and were changing signals constantly.
It's not worse than Rose lol