Astros GM suspended for one year after it was found that team cheated using technology to win World Series in 2017. (UPDATE: GM and manager fired)

NinjaScooter · Jan 14, 2020

mrmoose said:
I understand the union would have had a field day, but the players should have been punished somehow. You can't talk about the integrity of the game and then have a whole team complicit in cheating. You could argue that some didn't use the signs, fine, but they ALL knew about it, I don't think that's even up for dispute. So I don't get why they can't at least have some nominal punishment.

if the plan was devised from the top down by the coaches and managers then I don't think you can really punish the players. Granted, in this case I think the Astro players knew exactly what they were doing, but in general they can claim they were just following orders, and the PA would have probably hammered that home. "Player X went along out of fear that not doing so would have led to repercussions or ostracizing in the clubhouse..."

SolidChamp · Jan 14, 2020

I was reading the first page thinking to myself "Wouldn't it be funny if the technology in question were some cybernetic arms installed in the batters, like some Cyberdyne Systems shit?"

Creation_Scapes · Jan 14, 2020

Get championship rings/ banners made hold a celebration with all the past players and coaches and claim that they did win the World Series's even if it's not official.

WizardofPeace · Jan 14, 2020

Ryan. said:
"Bounty-gate"

So getting paid extra money for targeting certain players harder to try and injure them. It's breaking the rules, but it's not cheating.

Agreed, but I believe we should put an asterisk next to the Patriots 02, 04, and 05 superbowls.

JuicyPlayer · Jan 14, 2020

Is it hyperbolic to say that this is worse than what Pete Rose did?

Sanjuro · Jan 14, 2020

JuicyPlayer said:
Is it hyperbolic time to say that this is worse than what Pete Rose did?

In order of scandals,

Pete Rose > Astros > Ketchup on Hot Dogs > Steroids

Gwenpoolshark · Jan 14, 2020

VectorPrime said:
Alex Cora is up next.

No way he's keeping his job.

Too Bad, he worked really hard to bring visibility to PR after the Hurricane

Ricky_R · Jan 14, 2020

I'm predicting a 3 year suspension as minimum or life ban as maximum for Alex Cora.

Btw, players will obviously end up unscathed in all this, but they knew about it and went along with it so they should be punished as well, regardless if the plan and directions came from above.

NinjaScooter · Jan 14, 2020

JuicyPlayer said:
Is it hyperbolic time to say that this is worse than what Pete Rose did?

no. Betting on the game is worse.

Posty McPostface · Jan 14, 2020

NinjaScooter said:
if the plan was devised from the top down by the coaches and managers then I don't think you can really punish the players. Granted, in this case I think the Astro players knew exactly what they were doing, but in general they can claim they were just following orders, and the PA would have probably hammered that home. "Player X went along out of fear that not doing so would have led to repercussions or ostracizing in the clubhouse..."

These schemes weren't developed from the top down, though. The banging scheme in particular is described as being initiated by a group of players, including Beltran. Cora contributed to both schemes, with some low level employees involved in the replay room one specifically. But the players seemed to be driving the bus on these operations - the trash can one in particular. I don't think they could claim they were just following orders, but Manfred did admit that they could argue that they thought the team condoned and even encouraged it, since Cora was involved and Hinch didn't do enough to explicitly stop it.

But the players, or a group of them at least, were the ones ultimately carrying out these things, so they shouldn't be treated as victims of circumstance.

Olorin · Jan 14, 2020

As a Mets fan, I don't think Beltran should be a Manager while being broiled up in this. Even if not disciplined, he will still bear the taint of this. Can't imagine his players looking at this and saying "I can respect this guy".

rsfour · Jan 14, 2020

Ricky_R said:
I'm predicting a 3 year suspension as minimum or life ban as maximum for Alex Cora.

Btw, players will obviously end up unscathed in all this, but they knew about it and went along with it so they should be punished as well, regardless if the plan and directions came from above.

Seriously.

Players knew what they were doing.

Sanjuro · Jan 14, 2020

Olorin said:
As a Mets fan, I don't think Beltran should be a Manager while being broiled up in this. Even if not disciplined, he will still bear the taint of this. Can't imagine his players looking at this and saying "I can respect this guy".

I feel like something needs to happen. By all accounts, he appears to be the ringleader from the players end.

TheOther · Jan 14, 2020

They watch and bang.
Bang and watch and bang.
Watch watch watch!
Bang bang bang!
The 2017 Houston Astros!

kmfdmpig · Jan 14, 2020

I feel bad for Darvish. He not only had to put up with Gurriel's racist bullshit but also had the same cheating assholes that were OK with that stealing signs and getting an unfair advantage. The Astros are trash and their title should be vacated.

Satori · Jan 14, 2020

kmfdmpig said:
I feel bad for Darvish. He not only had to put up with Gurriel's racist bullshit but also had the same cheating assholes that were OK with that stealing signs and getting an unfair advantage. The Astros are trash and their title should be vacated.

Yeah it sucks that this had a pretty far reach when you think about it. The legacy of players like Kershaw, Darvish, etc could have been so different. And what sucks is in a few years people will look back at the record books and see the Astros was the 2017 champs and forget that they cheated to win it...

MM300 · Jan 14, 2020

Yeah I feel bad for Darvish. He pitched superbly in the NLDS and NLCS, then just suddenly implodes in the world series, and Doyers fans gave him so much shit for it. But at least they apologized to him, and he gets some peace of mind knowing his failures was likely out of hands.

MM300 · Jan 14, 2020

dennett316 · Jan 14, 2020

So why wasn't their title win stricken from the record? Stopped short of being a decent punishment by not doing that, it's a relative slap on the wrist.

TheGhost · Jan 14, 2020

BlastProcessing said:

SMH this guy

BlastProcessing · Jan 14, 2020

Satori said:
Yeah it sucks that this had a pretty far reach when you think about it. The legacy of players like Kershaw, Darvish, etc could have been so different. And what sucks is in a few years people will look back at the record books and see the Astros was the 2017 champs and forget that they cheated to win it...

On the other end of the scale, there were also pitchers who got bombed by the Astros and got demoted to the minors. The Astros derailed career paths of both ends of the spectrum.

Randam · Jan 14, 2020

BlastProcessing said:
On the other end of the scale, there were also pitchers who got bombed by the Astros and got demoted to the minors. The Astros derailed career paths of both ends of the spectrum.

Didn't even think about that.

They really should be stripped of the title.

metsallica · Jan 14, 2020

Olorin said:
As a Mets fan, I don't think Beltran should be a Manager while being broiled up in this. Even if not disciplined, he will still bear the taint of this. Can't imagine his players looking at this and saying "I can respect this guy".

Sanjuro said:
I feel like something needs to happen. By all accounts, he appears to be the ringleader from the players end.

He both needs to be fired and should be fired. But it's the Mets, so nothing will happen.

Conan · Jan 14, 2020

MM300 said:
Yeah I feel bad for Darvish. He pitched superbly in the NLDS and NLCS, then just suddenly implodes in the world series, and Doyers fans gave him so much shit for it. But at least they apologized to him, and he gets some peace of mind knowing his failures was likely out of hands.

Game 7 was at Dodger stadium.

mrmoose · Jan 14, 2020

BlastProcessing said:
On the other end of the scale, there were also pitchers who got bombed by the Astros and got demoted to the minors. The Astros derailed career paths of both ends of the spectrum.

Isn't that why the whistleblower came forward?

Mr Jones · Jan 14, 2020

NinjaScooter said:
no. Betting on the game is worse.

Instead of going above and beyond to cheat? How so?

mrmoose · Jan 14, 2020

Mr Jones said:
Instead of going above and beyond to cheat? How so?

People who believe what Pete Rose did was worse must believe that he altered the outcome of games as the manager just for betting purposes, that's the only explanation I can see. If you believe him that he always bet on his team to win, then that doesn't seem as bad. But I get why people wouldn't believe him.

Everybody Lies · Jan 14, 2020

I find it odd that MLB would choose to reward blatant cheaters.

Thrill_house · Jan 14, 2020

BlastProcessing said:
On the other end of the scale, there were also pitchers who got bombed by the Astros and got demoted to the minors. The Astros derailed career paths of both ends of the spectrum.

Wow my coworkers and I were discussing this ordeal and didn't even think about this angle. Holy shit they could have destroyed a few careers with that nonsense...damn.

Juryvicious · Jan 14, 2020

I SMH and continue to lose interest is all. In this specific case, a lifetime ban for management, every single player involved, and for ownership to be forced to sell the team is whats needed. Honestly, the scope of this scandal is impossible to realize, careers and lives were outright changed, opposition players being demoted or traded or having their career cut short as a recipient of this cheating. And now the Red Sox the following year?

NinjaScooter · Jan 14, 2020

mrmoose said:
People who believe what Pete Rose did was worse must believe that he altered the outcome of games as the manager just for betting purposes, that's the only explanation I can see. If you believe him that he always bet on his team to win, then that doesn't seem as bad. But I get why people wouldn't believe him.

even if he only bet on his team to win, the nights he didn't bet meant he could have used his position as manager and made decisions (on what pitchers/players he used) that were influenced by his betting. And I also don't believe for a second he didn't bet against his own team.

cheating in the way the Astros did, or using PEDs, affects the outcome but those teams/players are ultimately still trying to win. What Rose did cuts at the Legitimacy of the sport in a much worse way.

Liquidsnake · Jan 14, 2020

Juryvicious said:
I SMH and continue to lose interest is all. In this specific case, a lifetime ban for management, every single player involved, and for ownership to be forced to sell the team is whats needed. Honestly, the scope of this scandal is impossible to realize, careers and lives were outright changed, opposition players being demoted or traded or having their career cut short as a recipient of this cheating. And now the Red Sox the following year?

I agree with everything you said. This is a mark on the sport that will never be forgotten.

Conan · Jan 14, 2020

Juryvicious said:
I SMH and continue to lose interest is all. In this specific case, a lifetime ban for management, every single player involved, and for ownership to be forced to sell the team is whats needed. Honestly, the scope of this scandal is impossible to realize, careers and lives were outright changed, opposition players being demoted or traded or having their career cut short as a recipient of this cheating. And now the Red Sox the following year?

All of the claims are simply fanfiction. The Astros were the best team in baseball in 2017, their away record is a good indication of this fact. Yes they cheated and should be punished but the claims that they couldn't win without this really is just fanfiction. The Astros stopped using this system not because they were caught but because they found it to be ineffective.

The red Sox situation is not even in the same stratosphere either. Read up on the situation before you make these types of claims.

Sanjuro · Jan 14, 2020

Conan said:
All of the claims are simply fanfiction. The Astros were the best team in baseball in 2017, their away record is a good indication of this fact. Yes they cheated and should be punished but the claims that they couldn't win without this really is just fanfiction. The Astros stopped using this system not because they were caught but because they found it to be ineffective.

The red Sox situation is not even in the same stratosphere either. Read up on the situation before you make these types of claims.

I think a lot of casual sports fans get caught up in the headline, without a clear understanding of what was happening and the impact.

Matticers · Jan 14, 2020

Juryvicious said:
I SMH and continue to lose interest is all. In this specific case, a lifetime ban for management, every single player involved, and for ownership to be forced to sell the team is whats needed. Honestly, the scope of this scandal is impossible to realize, careers and lives were outright changed, opposition players being demoted or traded or having their career cut short as a recipient of this cheating. And now the Red Sox the following year?

I don't like the Astros at all but I think this is way over the top. You're basically suggesting the entire team gets banned for life since they were all involved with it. Anyone who wasn't actively participating was silently going along with it. I think the punishment was fine. It's enough to deter teams from trying anything like this again anytime soon. Nobody wants to get fired/suspended and cost their team top draft picks for years. They did it because they thought they would get away with it. Now others probably won't even try it since the punishment next time will be even more severe than this.

JuicyPlayer · Jan 14, 2020

NinjaScooter said:
no. Betting on the game is worse.

But he wasn't throwing games to win his bets. He was betting his own team would win.

Arc · Jan 14, 2020

WizardofPeace said:
Agreed, but I believe we should put an asterisk next to the Patriots 02, 04, and 05 superbowls.

People really still believe this lol

Sanjuro · Jan 14, 2020

JuicyPlayer said:
But he wasn't throwing games to win his bets. He was betting his own team would win.

If you believe Pete Rose. There is some documentation, sure, but that doesn't cover his whole gambling timeline.

NinjaScooter · Jan 14, 2020

JuicyPlayer said:
But he wasn't throwing games to win his bets. He was betting his own team would win.

for one, I don't necessarily believe that.

second, even if I did, that still has the potential to affect the outcome of games. Hypothetical situation: if Pete Rose the manager has no money on today's game, but had money on tomorrow's, it could affect which players he uses, which relievers he brings on, and how he manages. If your manager is trying to win his bets more than he's trying to win games, that's a problem.

Big-E · Jan 14, 2020

Plus with Rose, if you know you are betting the next day, you could save your arms or take someone out of the lineup before hand in order to rest them for the next game. Essentially altering the outcome of one game to set you up in a better circumstance tomorrow.

EDIT: Shit, beaten by NinjaScooter.

Juryvicious · Jan 14, 2020

Conan said:
All of the claims are simply fanfiction. The Astros were the best team in baseball in 2017, their away record is a good indication of this fact. Yes they cheated and should be punished but the claims that they couldn't win without this really is just fanfiction. The Astros stopped using this system not because they were caught but because they found it to be ineffective.

The red Sox situation is not even in the same stratosphere either. Read up on the situation before you make these types of claims.

Bullshit. It's worse as ALL teams were warned at the beginning of the 2018 season to knock it off. What is prohibited and what has been prohibited since the start of 2018 EXPLICITLY by Manfred is sign stealing with electronic means. What the Red Sox have allegedly done, I've now read there are 3 sources that state this, was use the video replay room, the room that teams use to determine if a manager should challenge the call, decode the signs thru the video replay room, have someone (most likely a player) walk down to the dugout and signal a runner on 2nd and the runner would then single the player at home plate.

The Red Sox cheating occurred after MLB and Manfred put in stricter rules at the beginning of the 2018 season to really clamp down on this entirely with the commissioner outright fucking warning he would take any future violation extremely seriously. To state, in your words here, that "The red Sox situation is not even in the same stratosphere" is an outright lie and not taking an unbiased hard, long look at how the Red Sox won their championship.

Conan · Jan 14, 2020

Juryvicious said:
Bullshit. It's worse as ALL teams were warned at the beginning of the 2018 season to knock it off. What is prohibited and what has been prohibited since the start of 2018 EXPLICITLY by Manfred is sign stealing with electronic means. What the Red Sox have allegedly done, I've now read there are 3 sources that state this, was use the video replay room, the room that teams use to determine if a manager should challenge the call, decode the signs thru the video replay room, have someone (most likely a player) walk down to the dugout and signal a runner on 2nd and the runner would then single the player at home plate.

The Red Sox cheating occurred after MLB and Manfred put in stricter rules at the beginning of the 2018 season to really clamp down on this entirely with the commissioner outright fucking warning he would take any future violation extremely seriously. To state, in your words here, that "The red Sox situation is not even in the same stratosphere" is an outright lie and not taking an unbiased hard, long look at how the Red Sox won their championship.

Dude the Astros were signaling signs to players in real time. If you don't see how that is not even similar I don't know what to tell you. When the lack of punishments for the Red Sox happens, it will be because every team utilizes their video room in this way. Don't kid yourself.

Editing in this video of Yankees broadcaster Michael Kay

https://youtu.be/sIaT-4pfnlo?t=175

Relevant clip starts at 2:55. The reason he is being charitable isn't because he like the Red Sox. It's because he knows as well as anyone the Yankees, and every other team utilize their video room in the same way.

Posty McPostface · Jan 14, 2020

Conan said:
All of the claims are simply fanfiction. The Astros were the best team in baseball in 2017, their away record is a good indication of this fact. Yes they cheated and should be punished but the claims that they couldn't win without this really is just fanfiction. The Astros stopped using this system not because they were caught but because they found it to be ineffective.

The red Sox situation is not even in the same stratosphere either. Read up on the situation before you make these types of claims.

The Astros were a great team regardless, but it's not hard to wonder if they would have beaten the Yankees without this cheating. They only won at home and the first two games were decided by one run.

Although some players questioned the efficacy of the cheating, there is no indication in Manfred's statement that the players stopped using the trash can method because it was ineffective. They stopped the replay room method in 2018 for that reason, but that's not surprising, because the fact that it wasn't very effective appears to be why they began to also use the trash can scheme a couple months into 2017. Enough of the players obviously thought that method was worth the risk, because they kept using it after Manfred warned the teams not to use technology to steal signs, and throughout the postseason, even though they were paranoid they were going to get caught. And I suspect that that paranoia is why they didn't continue it in 2018, especially since players and coaches (like Fiers and Cora) who left the team would know about it.

rc213 · Jan 14, 2020

Conan said:
All of the claims are simply fanfiction. The Astros were the best team in baseball in 2017, their away record is a good indication of this fact. Yes they cheated and should be punished but the claims that they couldn't win without this really is just fanfiction. The Astros stopped using this system not because they were caught but because they found it to be ineffective.

The red Sox situation is not even in the same stratosphere either. Read up on the situation before you make these types of claims.

How can it be fanfiction? The fact that they decided to cheat means they knew they weren't good enough to win to be the best team in 2017. You're telling me Pitchers setting up a plan to pitch and getting bombed in Minute Maid had no real effect on how that pitcher approached those same hitters when they faced them at home? Fanfiction is swallowing the bullshit that they stopped cause it was no longer effective. FOH

LudicrousSpeed · Jan 14, 2020

On the Pete Rose stuff, in addition to the bits about managers having to manage the team from a longer term perspective of today's game, there's also another angle.

Let's say Pete Rose has bet on the Reds to win every game of the season so far, same bet every time. Tomorrow, there's a big meaningful game, and this time, there's no bet on the Reds. Or maybe the opposite, maybe there's a bigger-than-normal bet on the team. Either one of those actions gives a bookie an insight on the game given the insider info that Rose is working with.

Unless he bet the same amount on literally every Reds game, his betting activities were providing inside information to bookies.

Juryvicious · Jan 14, 2020

Conan said:
Dude the Astros were signaling signs to players in real time. If you don't see how that is not even similar I don't know what to tell you. When the lack of punishments for the Red Sox happens, it will be because every team utilizes their video room in this way. Don't kid yourself.

Two points:

1 - As were the Red Sox, the difference here is the Red Sox weren't banging on garbage cans, but their methods were also calculated and in real time using electronic sign stealing.

2 - The Red Sox won their championship after the commissioner at the beginning of the 2018 season outright warned teams there would be severe re-precautions to electronic sign stealing, and the Red Soxs said fuck that, we're doing it anyways. Their methods are different than the Astros from a year prior, tho both utilized a form of electronic sign stealing. End of story.

Conan · Jan 14, 2020

rc213 said:
How can it be fanfiction? The fact that they decided to cheat means they knew they weren't good enough to win to be the best team in 2017. You're telling me Pitchers setting up a plan to pitch and getting bombed in Minute Maid had no real effect on how that pitcher approached those same hitters when they faced them at home? Fanfiction is swallowing the bullshit that they stopped cause it was no longer effective. FOH

It is fanfiction because people are creating their own alternate universe where they know what all of the outcomes would have been without the cheating. The Astros cheated and created doubt and that is on them and they are getting punished for it. It is a different leap when you claim that you know exactly what the outcomes would have been without them using this. It's also possible LA loses 4 straight in that universe, the Astros are and were a talent stacked team, again their incredible effectiveness on the road is concrete evidence of this fact.

Conan · Jan 14, 2020

Juryvicious said:
Two points:

1 - As were the Red Sox, the difference here is the Red Sox weren't banging on garbage cans, but their methods were also calculated and in real time using electronic sign stealing.

2 - The Red Sox won their championship after the commissioner at the beginning of the 2018 season outright warned teams there would be severe re-precautions to electronic sign stealing, and the Red Soxs said fuck that, we're doing it anyways. Their methods are different than the Astros from a year prior, tho both utilized a form of electronic sign stealing. End of story.

A player had to go to the video room, decode the signal, reach second base and then attempt to relay the signal to the batter. Every team has video room right next to the dugout and since the advent of instant replay has been doing this and before instant replay simply attempted this after the game. The Astros installed a separate camera and monitor and had people from outside the game giving signals to batters. That is a massive distinction.

Heromanz · Jan 14, 2020

I feel like if you cheat at the world series and win then they should take that win away from you

Netherscourge · Jan 14, 2020

They cheated.

They're frauds.

Period.

Doesn't even matter if you can or can't prove it helped them win. They made the effort to cheat and that's all you have to do to break the rules and have fraudulent outcomes.

Astros GM suspended for one year after it was found that team cheated using technology to win World Series in 2017. (UPDATE: GM and manager fired)

One Winged Slayer