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Attack on Titan (Shingeki no Kyojin) manga SPOILERS thread | Enter the Basement

TearablePuns

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,154
So, out of all the memories Eren showed to Grisha of him and Zeke inside Grisha's memories, the only one that Eren allowed Grisha to see Zeke with him is the one where he hugs Zeke? he didn't let him see Zeke in any of those other memories?
this shit is bonkers hahaha Eren takes manipulation to the next level
 

shergal

Member
Oct 25, 2017
83
Grisha saw Zeke in the previous chapter, so I don't think Eren was purposefully stopping him from seeing Zeke or anything.
 

TearablePuns

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,154
future eren in kid eren for a split second?


First chapter when Eren wakes up and asks Mikasa when her hair got so long and starts crying..
Its because he literally saw his own future by seeing his dad’s memories after making contact with Historia and by seeing Grisha’s memories, he could see his own future... and what he saw from that made him cry
I’m at a loss
...


Grisha saw Zeke in the previous chapter, so I don't think Eren was purposefully stopping him from seeing Zeke or anything.
you right
i think when he saw Zeke that first time he wasn't feeling the regret yet. it took the murder of the reiss' for Grisha to break down and plead to Zeke to stop Eren.
 

nDesh

The Three Eyed Raven
Member
Oct 27, 2017
817
He’s completely doing a Lelouch, but more hardcore, I don’t remember Lelouch killing kids.
 

BigWinnie1

Member
Feb 19, 2018
2,587
Would you say Eren Yeager is an antagionst,villain or an protagionst and hero?
He is still the hero because he is fighting against a literal genocide of his people. Fuck everyone else really. They had one chance to not have this outcome and they cheered and roared for the destruction of a whole race of people in a united chorus so they deserve to die in the same united chorus of wails and screaming.
 
Oct 27, 2017
763
Would you say Eren Yeager is an antagionst,villain or an protagionst and hero?
He's a protagonist by definition, but he's also a villain at this point. He'd be an antihero if he wanted to bring about a good outcome for the world, albeit with morally questionable methods. Now signs point to him wanting to destroy the outside world in order to secure freedom for his own race, which is a bad outcome. He will just continue the cycle of violence until one side is completely wiped out, just as Marley tried to do. IMO one of the focal points of this story is how to break this cycle
 

Hybris

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,831
He's a protagonist by definition, but he's also a villain at this point. He'd be an antihero if he wanted to bring about a good outcome for the world, albeit with morally questionable methods. Now signs point to him wanting to destroy the outside world in order to secure freedom for his own race, which is a bad outcome. He will just continue the cycle of violence until one side is completely wiped out, just as Marley tried to do. IMO one of the focal points of this story is how to break this cycle
Wouldn't it be possible that Eren is the whole reason this cycle of violence exists in the first place? The attack titan could be the very source of the turmoil from the very beginning. The titan lore states that things were great until Ymir split right?
 

Drax

Oregon tag
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,452
Wouldn't it be possible that Eren is the whole reason this cycle of violence exists in the first place? The attack titan could be the very source of the turmoil from the very beginning. The titan lore states that things were great until Ymir split right?
I mean there's a more then decent chance that the Attack Titan is "The Devil" now.
 

Dark Knight

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,381
eh...This is so garbled. I mean it has always been, but...
Everything works within the established logic and lore of the story though. Paths and their implications were established like half the manga ago.
I mean there's a more then decent chance that the Attack Titan is "The Devil" now.

Someone on the subreddit pointed out that the Devil here has a hood, like Eren. And the "tree" behind Ymir on this page could very well symbolize or represent the massive Coordinate beam they're next to right now.
 

Drax

Oregon tag
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,452
I mean he has to stick the landing, it's going to be very very hard. So I'm pretty interested in seeing it happen.
 

shergal

Member
Oct 25, 2017
83
I wonder if Eren really gives a shit about "the Eldian race"/"the Paradis nation" though. We haven't been privy to his motivations since the timeskip, and last we knew he was still thinking mostly in terms of what was proximal to him (his friends, his comrades, etc.) and essentially was as lost as the rest of the island in terms of what to do.
 

Dark Knight

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,381
Time travel is a biggie, best of luck to him
Do we have any reason to doubt Isayama's storytelling skills though? In terms of planning things years in advance, both his foreshadowing and ability to follow through, Isayama is peerless imo.

The fact that our minds are blown literally every chapter is a testament to how this story will conclude.
 

nelsonroyale

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,662
Everything works within the established logic and lore of the story though. Paths and their implications were established like half the manga ago.


Someone on the subreddit pointed out that the Devil here has a hood, like Eren. And the "tree" behind Ymir on this page could very well symbolize or represent the massive Coordinate beam they're next to right now.
Well yes the author creates the logic of the world and is free to augment it as he sees fit. But there is a lot of toing and froing, and introducing this foresight ability is awfully convenient to justify Erin again being...what? it is difficult to get a handle on who Eren is anymore, and what he actually believes. At least for me. Since the key aspects of what his plan actually is has been constantly obscured from the readers.
 

Lotus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
46,088
Do we have any reason to doubt Isayama's storytelling skills though? In terms of planning things years in advance, both his foreshadowing and ability to follow through, Isayama is peerless imo.
He's definitely not peerless, but I'm not really worried or feel some type of way about this development.

All the same, its still time travel, so again, best of luck to him.
 

Dark Knight

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,381
Well yes the author creates the logic of the world and is free to augment it as he sees fit. But there is a lot of toing and froing, and introducing this foresight ability is awfully convenient
They didn't just introduce it though, we've known the Attack Titan can do this sort of thing since The Owl uttered Eren's friends' names.

edit: sry for double post
 

TearablePuns

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,154
Just the fact that we're STILL questioning Eren's endgame plan is remarkable storytelling to me. Isayama is a master
 

Richter1887

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,343
So wait a second, Eren was the reason the owl gave the attack titan to his father?
At this point it wouldn't shock me if he made the owl overlook Grisha's sister being eaten just to set this plan in motion.

Then again, I am reaching here so maybe I am dead wrong.
 

Drax

Oregon tag
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,452
So wait a second, Eren was the reason the owl gave the attack titan to his father?
At this point it wouldn't shock me if he made the owl overlook Grisha's sister being eaten just to set this plan in motion.

Then again, I am reaching here so maybe I am dead wrong.
I would say its between a. Maybe and b. Pretty likely now. We just need more
 

Kirblar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,602
This is "Time is a Flat Circle" stuff a la a certain recent Sci Fi film of the past few years. So everything happens at once, there's no paradoxes.
 

TearablePuns

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,154
So wait a second, Eren was the reason the owl gave the attack titan to his father?
At this point it wouldn't shock me if he made the owl overlook Grisha's sister being eaten just to set this plan in motion.

Then again, I am reaching here so maybe I am dead wrong.
not gonna lie, I really hope Eren doesn’t have his hand in the cookie jar of EVERY attack Titan in history. Like, Kruger giving the Titan to grisha, I could live without Eren having a hand in that. Him having a hand in everything is a little overkill To be honest
 

Dark Knight

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,381
not gonna lie, I really hope Eren doesn’t have his hand in the cookie jar of EVERY attack Titan in history. Like, Kruger giving the Titan to grisha, I could live without Eren having a hand in that. Him having a hand in everything is a little overkill To be honest
Eren is the "progenitor" of this "power" though, so if every AT in history had visions of the future it's indeed because of Eren. Whether or not he intentionally meddled further back is yet to be seen.
 

shergal

Member
Oct 25, 2017
83
Eren is the "progenitor" of this "power" though, so if every AT in history had visions of the future it's indeed because of Eren. Whether or not he intentionally meddled further back is yet to be seen.
Still don't buy that. How would the loop be created in the first place if Grisha couldn't see Eren's memories to begin with? Eren as of yet has not done anything with the FT, Ymir or the pillar of light. He's just the same Eren as before, but simply took advantage of an opportunity that Zeke unwittingly created by taking him through Grisha's memories.

Of course this could change if, in later chapters, Eren does something that does make it retroactively true, but I don't think it's settled right now.
 

Dark Knight

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,381
Still don't buy that. How would the loop be created in the first place
That's what time loops imply though. Look up "bootstrap paradox." It's not like this sort of device hasn't been used in fiction before.

The idea is that Grisha always saws Eren's memories in order to eventually get Eren into the Coordinate, in order for Eren to influence Grisha's memories, in order to eventually get Eren into the Coordinate, in order for Eren to influence Grisha's memories, in order to eventually get Eren into the Coordinate, in order for Eren to influence Grisha's memories, in order to eventually get Eren into the Coordinate, in order for Eren to influence Grisha's memories, in order to eventually get Eren into the Coordinate..........

you see where I'm going. It really doesn't matter what is the origin of this turn of events because it's a closed loop either way.
 

Kirblar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,602
This is kind of a mega movie spoiler but if you want another piece of media using the same conceit to get a handle on it conceptually:
Watch Arrival.
 

shergal

Member
Oct 25, 2017
83
That's what time loops imply though. Look up "bootstrap paradox." It's not like this sort of device hasn't been used in fiction before.

The idea is that Grisha always saws Eren's memories in order to eventually get Eren into the Coordinate, in order for Eren to influence Grisha's memories, in order to eventually get Eren into the Coordinate, in order for Eren to influence Grisha's memories, in order to eventually get Eren into the Coordinate, in order for Eren to influence Grisha's memories, in order to eventually get Eren into the Coordinate, in order for Eren to influence Grisha's memories, in order to eventually get Eren into the Coordinate..........

you see where I'm going. It really doesn't matter what is the origin of this turn of events because it's a closed loop either way.
The bootstrap paradox would apply more to Grisha's actions themselves (how would he kill the Reiss without Eren motivating him, but therefore Eren being there to motivate him requires him to kill the Reiss etc.). The capacity for the timeloop to be formed, itself, depends on AT's future-seeing ability. I don't deny there is a possibility that Eren, by some fuckery with that pillar of light/Ymir/whatever, retroactively creates the ability into the past. But it's not a settled thing, it could still be simply an AT ability that was there regardless of Eren.
 

Dark Knight

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,381
The capacity for the timeloop to be formed, itself, depends on AT's future-seeing ability. I don't deny there is a possibility that Eren, by some fuckery with that pillar of light/Ymir/whatever, retroactively creates the ability into the past. But it's not a settled thing, it could still be simply an AT ability that was there regardless of Eren.
There is no innate ability though, the ability to see the future could have been formed by any other titan line that acquired the Founding and entered the source of all organic matter with Zeke. We just witnessed an integral piece of the time loop(and the unique Attack Titan "ability") being formed this very chapter. Did you forget that Eren even thanks Zeke in the new chapter for showing him the memories required to "open up the paths" for him? Eren even seems a bit perturbed that Zeke didn't get to show him the moment when Grisha has Eren eat him because he knew he'd likely have to motivate Grisha in that moment as well(which is why Grisha's choice to go through with it is still somewhat mysterious in the scheme of what we just learned). Eren knew he had to manipulate Zeke to show him the memories and then manipulate Grisha, in order to fulfill the requirements of the loop.
 

shergal

Member
Oct 25, 2017
83
There is no innate ability though, the ability to see the future could have been formed by any other titan line that acquired the Founding and entered the source of all organic matter with Zeke. We just witnessed an integral piece of the time loop(and the unique Attack Titan "ability") being formed this very chapter. Did you forget that Eren even thanks Zeke in the new chapter for showing him the memories required to "open up the paths" for him? Eren even seems a bit perturbed that Zeke didn't get to show him the moment when Grisha has Eren eat him because he knew he'd likely have to motivate Grisha in that moment as well(which is why Grisha's choice to go through with it is still somewhat mysterious in the scheme of what we just learned). Eren knew he had to manipulate Zeke to show him the memories and then manipulate Grisha, in order to fulfill the requirements of the loop.
What Zeke opened up was the possibility for Eren to motivate Grisha to kill the Reiss, which Eren knew would happen from having seen Grisha's memories. There's nothing here that suggests the future-seeing ability is necessarily an effect of the timeloop, rather than the other way around. Speaking generically, simply being able to see future memories doesn't necessitate the existence of a timeloop.
 

Dark Knight

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,381
What Zeke opened up was the possibility for Eren to motivate Grisha to kill the Reiss, which Eren knew would happen from having seen Grisha's memories. There's nothing here that suggests the future-seeing ability is necessarily an effect of the timeloop, rather than the other way around. Speaking generically, simply being able to see future memories doesn't necessitate the existence of a timeloop.
I get what you're saying but I think the future memory stuff could be feedback loops for stuff we haven't seen yet. Grisha has the memory of the future disaster from Eren, but we don't know when he sends that memory back. We just know that Eren has seen the memory from Grisha from future Eren. Keep in mind Eren's still stuck inside this place without a body in the real world. We don't know how long he'll be in there, how many more moments he can influence, and many other variables, including how he can ever exist in the real world again.

I think he's going to make a deal with Ymir that she can't refuse. That will be her "deal with the devil" and Eren will gain full control over the Coordinate after she rebuilds his body. At that point he can both initiate the rumbling outside the source, and relay the memories inside the source.

So while it's true that the future memory thing, and even the Owl knowing of Mikasa and Armin, are both unknowns at this point, they definitely suggest events in the loop that we just haven't seen yet rather than AT having a some random innate ability. Being a part of the loop that gives AT's this ability makes way more sense than it being a random power.
 

Joni

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,533
There is one truly 'killer' thing in this chapter. Before Grisha kills the Reiss family, Zeke asks Eren if he lied about being truly disappointed in their father. The answer is: he truly was disappointed, but because Grisha didn't want to kill Frieda and her siblings...
 
Nov 6, 2017
7,036
Los Angeles
He is still the hero because he is fighting against a literal genocide of his people. Fuck everyone else really. They had one chance to not have this outcome and they cheered and roared for the destruction of a whole race of people in a united chorus so they deserve to die in the same united chorus of wails and screaming.
Honestly looks like Eren is going to genocide anyone who is not an Eldian.

He said it himself, he’s going to take the freedom of anyone who wants to take his freedom.

It’s a villain versus villain conflict.

Zeke wants to sterilize his people and Eren wants to obliterate the enemies of Eldia so his people are free.
 

The Silver

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,829
Oh boy we're getting into some crazy shit now...

But hey my old theory about Eren using the AT to influence past hosts came true, he's to the AT what the 1st Paradis King is to the Founding titan but in reverse.
 
Oct 25, 2017
18,945
There is one truly 'killer' thing in this chapter. Before Grisha kills the Reiss family, Zeke asks Eren if he lied about being truly disappointed in their father. The answer is: he truly was disappointed, but because Grisha didn't want to kill Frieda and her siblings...
"Dad, I thought you were hard, but it turns out you soft as fuck!!"
 

Joni

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,533
Just awaiting the moment where Eren reveals he forced Kruger and Xaver to work together against Grisha/Zeke.