AV Club: Turns out Colin Trevorrow's version of Star Wars: Episode IX was good, actually

Nacho

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,019
NYC
There's definitely a lot of good here that I like significantly more than the episode 9 we got. But much like what we got, there's a bunch of good and bad stuff. There's stupid 'it's poetry it rhymes' stuff that just apes or inverses OT stuff (no, I killed your parents! I'm sure that's what the line would have been) that is unnecessary.

In the end itd come down to the execution, and I don't know that I'd trust trevorrow for that, but then again JJ didn't nail that either.

Rey not being a palpatine, i didnt think it bothered me that much until seeing that there was another possibility.
 

legend166

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,460
I am confused by the end details.



I literally don't understand what this means? Save him from what?

And why would Snoke have Kylo Ren kill Rey's parents. If I had a script and leaked a summary to the internet, that would be a pretty huge fucking thing that needs explaining.
I feel like that's not that big a stretch? Mysteriously powerful force user shows up. Snoke/Kylo start investigating her origins to find out who she is. Kylo tracks down her parents, discovers they are nobodies and kills them because he's an evil dude. That also tells us how he knew who they were in the first place. They must have done some digging unless it was just "force knowledge" or some such nonsense.
 

matrix-cat

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,287
Isn’t one of the main gripes some people have against TLJ is that it does the complete opposite of that?
The difference with the transition from TFA to TLJ is that JJ's trademark approach to writing (his Mystery Boxes) left most continuing plot threads as mysteries to be solved, questions that had to be answered. Who are Rey's parents, what's Luke been doing, how did Ben Solo go bad, what's Snoke's deal, etc. JJ left all this stuff up in the air by the time the credits rolled on Episode VII, so Rian Johnson was left in the unenviable position of having to compete with two years of fan theories about the same questions he had to answer. The Last Jedi does give answers to all those mysteries, but the answers weren't what a lot of people wanted. Not saying that's the only reason people might dislike the movie, but that's certainly a big part of it.

(It's also worth nothing that The Last Jedi doesn't actually drop any plot thread from TFA. Kylo killed Han, and that moment has huge significance for both Rey and Kylo throughout the whole movie. The Resistance dealt a blow to the First Order, so the FO immediately strike back. Finn wakes up in the exact mindstate he ended TFA in; it's all there. You can watch the movies back to back and they flow together perfectly.)

By the end of The Last Jedi, the mysteries from The Force Awakens have been solidified into hard story beats. The answers have been given and there aren't any more mysteries left to be solved, just character arcs that need to be completed and plot threads to be brought to conclusion. There's still room for the interpretation and vision of the final director, of course, but points like Rey being a nobody were not up for debate. Episode IX needed to take what TLJ had done and continue forward, building from it, but what JJ and Terrio did instead was first go backwards and retell what they didn't like from TLJ before barrelling ahead in their own, totally new direction.

When you write it out it really is remarkable just how little TROS does with the plot threads TLJ left for it:

Rey's parents were nobodies -> lol
Rey's lightsabre is broken -> it just gets fixed off-screen
Rey grew out of her girlhood three-bun hairstyle -> back to the buns
Kylo has moved past his Vader cosplay mask -> he puts the mask back on
Kylo kills his master -> all according to keikaku
Luke's final stand inspired the galaxy to stand up against tyranny -> never mentioned
Luke promised to see Kylo around -> they never meet again
Finn finds purpose beyond saving Rey, maybe has a new love interest -> Finn does nothing but scream Rey's name
Rose exists -> nah

I mean, I don't think Episode IX's director needed to be beholden to ticking off every item on a checklist, of course, but ignoring or outright retconning so much is way harsher than even the most bad-faith interpretations of what TLJ did with the mysteries from TFA.

EDIT - lol sorry I didn't mean to turn this into a big wall of text written by a crazy person. I have to stop doing this :P
 

TheMango55

Member
Nov 1, 2017
4,841
I honestly don't understand how people can look at this outline and think it looks good. It's insane to me.
 

GayAnimeDad

Member
Feb 13, 2018
2,719
Japan
It’s be great if someone could edit and re-summarize the second Trevorrow script. The way Jason Ward typed it is kind of a mess.
 

Timu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,968
The difference with the transition from TFA to TLJ is that JJ's trademark approach to writing (his Mystery Boxes) left most continuing plot threads as mysteries to be solved, questions that had to be answered. Who are Rey's parents, what's Luke been doing, how did Ben Solo go bad, what's Snoke's deal, etc. JJ left all this stuff up in the air by the time the credits rolled on Episode VII, so Rian Johnson was left in the unenviable position of having to compete with two years of fan theories about the same questions he had to answer. The Last Jedi does give answers to all those mysteries, but the answers weren't what a lot of people wanted. Not saying that's the only reason people might dislike the movie, but that's certainly a big part of it.

(It's also worth nothing that The Last Jedi doesn't actually drop any plot thread from TFA. Kylo killed Han, and that moment has huge significance for both Rey and Kylo throughout the whole movie. The Resistance dealt a blow to the First Order, so the FO immediately strike back. Finn wakes up in the exact mindstate he ended TFA in; it's all there. You can watch the movies back to back and they flow together perfectly.)

By the end of The Last Jedi, the mysteries from The Force Awakens have been solidified into hard story beats. The answers have been given and there aren't any more mysteries left to be solved, just character arcs that need to be completed and plot threads to be brought to conclusion. There's still room for the interpretation and vision of the final director, of course, but points like Rey being a nobody were not up for debate. Episode IX needed to take what TLJ had done and continue forward, building from it, but what JJ and Terrio did instead was first go backwards and retell what they didn't like from TLJ before barrelling ahead in their own, totally new direction.

When you write it out it really is remarkable just how little TROS does with the plot threads TLJ left for it:

Rey's parents were nobodies -> lol
Rey's lightsabre is broken -> it just gets fixed off-screen
Rey grew out of her girlhood three-bun hairstyle -> back to the buns
Kylo has moved past his Vader cosplay mask -> he puts the mask back on
Kylo kills his master -> all according to keikaku
Luke's final stand inspired the galaxy to stand up against tyranny -> never mentioned
Luke promised to see Kylo around -> they never meet again
Finn finds purpose beyond saving Rey, maybe has a new love interest -> Finn does nothing but scream Rey's name
Rose exists -> nah

I mean, I don't think Episode IX's director needed to be beholden to ticking off every item on a checklist, of course, but ignoring or outright retconning so much is way harsher than even the most bad-faith interpretations of what TLJ did with the mysteries from TFA.


EDIT - lol sorry I didn't mean to turn this into a big wall of text written by a crazy person. I have to stop doing this :P
Yeah this here is one of the many things I didn't like about the TROS, it shouldn't had done most of that.
 

Ushojax

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,404
I honestly don't understand how people can look at this outline and think it looks good. It's insane to me.
I think there are some elements that could have formed the basis for a real Episode IX.

- the clear establishment of the First Order's control over the core worlds and the Resistance attempting to disrupt their manufacturing capabilities
- Kylo and Hux jostling for command of the First Order
- Luke's ghost visiting both Rey and Kylo
- Rose and Finn leading important missions

Obviously there is a lot of shit in there like Cthulhu, Mortis, the "I killed your parents", a lot of stuff that doesn't need to be there or doesn't fit with previous films. Both this treatment and TROS crammed way too much stuff in, a good finale should be focused on resolving the character arcs not filling the two hours with fan fodder.
 

Gifmaker

Member
Oct 29, 2017
831
When you write it out it really is remarkable just how little TROS does with the plot threads TLJ left for it:
I don't necessarily agree with most of this. Let's see:

Rey's parents were nobodies -> lol > Yep, that was stupid. Should have left it like that. But I gotta admit, at least it gave Rey any kind of agenda to be angry at Palpatine.
Rey's lightsabre is broken -> it just gets fixed off-screen > Not really an issue, Luke also built a new lightsaber off-screen for ROTJ. And unlike Luke, Rey actually had a living teacher for that in Leia.
Rey grew out of her girlhood three-bun hairstyle -> back to the buns > Is that really relevant? While I liked her hairstyle in TLJ, I never interpreted it as "growing out" of anything.
Kylo has moved past his Vader cosplay mask -> he puts the mask back on > The main reason he destroyed the mask was because he was ashamed for how Snoke taunted him about it. Then he killed Snoke, therefore was free to act on his desire to imitate Vader again. I thought it made sense.
Kylo kills his master -> all according to keikaku > Well, Snoke needed some kind of explanation, and Palpatine having ties to him somehow was hinted at in TLJ musically, so there's that.
Luke's final stand inspired the galaxy to stand up against tyranny -> never mentioned > Except it made happen what didn't happen on Crait, everybody joined forces against the Final Order.
Luke promised to see Kylo around -> they never meet again > Luke might have been premature with this line, given that he dies afterwards. Besides, "no-one's ever really gone", so of course they're gonna meet again in some form, if only after Ben became one with the Force.
Finn finds purpose beyond saving Rey, maybe has a new love interest -> Finn does nothing but scream Rey's name > He's a fullblown and competent leader in the Resistance now though and also learned to trust in the Force inside him.
Rose exists -> nah > Her little screentime is a let-down, but at least she's taking part in some serious fighting and not riding around on CGI camels this time.

So I think it's a matter of interpretation really. RJ's work was very divisive, and it is evident that they tried to rectify that with TROS, for which I am personally thankful, because while I am able to be more ambivalent towards some questionable stuff in E9, the stuff in E8 was way more polarizing and more of a love-or-hate affair I think. It's good to try new things, but I think TLJ did too much controversial stuff, just like TROS played it a little too safe in some instances. But I don't think it ignored many threads from TLJ, I actually think that TROS spent a lot of time and effort on rectifying them, which makes for some hasty pacing in E9.
 

Ushojax

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,404
I don't know how you can say TLJ was controversial and then say that TROS was more safe. TROS does insane things that don't match up with the previous films. The film is the opposite of safe, it goes to absurd extremes to try and pacify the people who were upset by TLJ and ended up being even more divisive.

Sith coming back from the dead? That was supposed to be impossible. Palpatine actually wanting to die? Also stupid as his whole schtick was about prolonging life as, until TROS, death was the absolute end for any Sith. Being able to heal grievous wounds without any real consequence? Being able to revive the dead? Being able to drain the life out of people?

It was established that the First Order were the last extremist remnants of the Empire, hiding in Unknown Regions and building their strength, until TROS told us there were actually an even more extreme set of Imperial remnants hiding out in the even more unknown Unknown Regions, with even more extreme ships. Also nobody knew about this somehow despite the leader of the First Order being a mind-controlled test tube baby that Sheev made. They also have thousands upon thousand of followers, enough to build ships, maintain them, crew them and staff a garment factory that makes their unique uniforms. They also have access to enough food on this desolate world to keep the whole operation going for decades. All without anybody finding out.

The movie doesn't have any respect for the 8 films that came before, the story can't be reconciled with them. Star Wars is kids stuff about space wizards and you can find holes in all the previous films, but TROS doesn't even hold up to the most superficial level of scrutiny. Nothing that happens makes any sense.
 
Oct 31, 2017
5,785
The difference with the transition from TFA to TLJ is that JJ's trademark approach to writing (his Mystery Boxes) left most continuing plot threads as mysteries to be solved, questions that had to be answered. Who are Rey's parents, what's Luke been doing, how did Ben Solo go bad, what's Snoke's deal, etc. JJ left all this stuff up in the air by the time the credits rolled on Episode VII, so Rian Johnson was left in the unenviable position of having to compete with two years of fan theories about the same questions he had to answer. The Last Jedi does give answers to all those mysteries, but the answers weren't what a lot of people wanted. Not saying that's the only reason people might dislike the movie, but that's certainly a big part of it.

(It's also worth nothing that The Last Jedi doesn't actually drop any plot thread from TFA. Kylo killed Han, and that moment has huge significance for both Rey and Kylo throughout the whole movie. The Resistance dealt a blow to the First Order, so the FO immediately strike back. Finn wakes up in the exact mindstate he ended TFA in; it's all there. You can watch the movies back to back and they flow together perfectly.)

By the end of The Last Jedi, the mysteries from The Force Awakens have been solidified into hard story beats. The answers have been given and there aren't any more mysteries left to be solved, just character arcs that need to be completed and plot threads to be brought to conclusion. There's still room for the interpretation and vision of the final director, of course, but points like Rey being a nobody were not up for debate. Episode IX needed to take what TLJ had done and continue forward, building from it, but what JJ and Terrio did instead was first go backwards and retell what they didn't like from TLJ before barrelling ahead in their own, totally new direction.

When you write it out it really is remarkable just how little TROS does with the plot threads TLJ left for it:

Rey's parents were nobodies -> lol
Rey's lightsabre is broken -> it just gets fixed off-screen
Rey grew out of her girlhood three-bun hairstyle -> back to the buns
Kylo has moved past his Vader cosplay mask -> he puts the mask back on
Kylo kills his master -> all according to keikaku
Luke's final stand inspired the galaxy to stand up against tyranny -> never mentioned
Luke promised to see Kylo around -> they never meet again
Finn finds purpose beyond saving Rey, maybe has a new love interest -> Finn does nothing but scream Rey's name
Rose exists -> nah

I mean, I don't think Episode IX's director needed to be beholden to ticking off every item on a checklist, of course, but ignoring or outright retconning so much is way harsher than even the most bad-faith interpretations of what TLJ did with the mysteries from TFA.

EDIT - lol sorry I didn't mean to turn this into a big wall of text written by a crazy person. I have to stop doing this :P
TLJ elevates much of what came before it and answers questions that JJ wasn't even going to answer originally. It's not even relatable to what TRoS did, which I feel comes from conflating, "I didn't get what I thought I wanted," with, "The questions weren't answered."

The reveals that Rey's parents were nobody and she's in this predicament with nothing to fall back on (her world is falling around her figuratively and literally at the moment) and that Luke wasn't actually on Crait, remain highlights of the ST, actual amazing character moments. My mom, who is a casual fan of the series and has enjoyed just about every Star Wars film, still talks about the reveal that Luke was a projection. It was all earned. Honestly, I think JJ did a good job setting up the new characters since so many of us love them, and I think he's better at that than continuing his own story because his answers are unsatisfying and not as big as he thinks they are. He'd probably get less hate if we had gotten Trevorrow's version because I could see it being the "weakest" in terms of direction (the hardships of making a third movie in a trilogy) or because an interesting and exciting end to the three movies, giving us three well-received movies.

For me, TLJ actually is a great ending to the 8 films, and TFA and TLJ are great companion pieces.

So I think it's a matter of interpretation really. RJ's work was very divisive, and it is evident that they tried to rectify that with TROS, for which I am personally thankful, because while I am able to be more ambivalent towards some questionable stuff in E9, the stuff in E8 was way more polarizing and more of a love-or-hate affair I think. It's good to try new things, but I think TLJ did too much controversial stuff, just like TROS played it a little too safe in some instances. But I don't think it ignored many threads from TLJ, I actually think that TROS spent a lot of time and effort on rectifying them, which makes for some hasty pacing in E9.
Interestingly, plenty of Star Wars fans were picky about TESB and ROTJ. This should be a learning lesson that fans aren't filmmakers, many are bad writers, and what "people want" isn't necessarily what makes a good movie considering how few character moments and how overstuffed and zany this movie turned out. There was nothing to rectify; there was plenty to build.

The best of the OT, TESB, was not some plot-heavy movie that added tons of worlds and aliens and lore to the Star Wars universe; it was a great character piece of our heroes with moments we remember because they subverted our expectations, they challenged our heroes, and they were complemented by fantastic camerawork.

I don't know how you can say TLJ was controversial and then say that TROS was more safe. TROS does insane things that don't match up with the previous films. The film is the opposite of safe, it goes to absurd extremes to try and pacify the people who were upset by TLJ and ended up being even more divisive.

Sith coming back from the dead? That was supposed to be impossible. Palpatine actually wanting to die? Also stupid as his whole schtick was about prolonging life as, until TROS, death was the absolute end for any Sith. Being able to heal grievous wounds without any real consequence? Being able to revive the dead? Being able to drain the life out of people?

It was established that the First Order were the last extremist remnants of the Empire, hiding in Unknown Regions and building their strength, until TROS told us there were actually an even more extreme set of Imperial remnants hiding out in the even more unknown Unknown Regions, with even more extreme ships. Also nobody knew about this somehow despite the leader of the First Order being a mind-controlled test tube baby that Sheev made. They also have thousands upon thousand of followers, enough to build ships, maintain them, crew them and staff a garment factory that makes their unique uniforms. They also have access to enough food on this desolate world to keep the whole operation going for decades. All without anybody finding out.

The movie doesn't have any respect for the 8 films that came before, the story can't be reconciled with them. Star Wars is kids stuff about space wizards and you can find holes in all the previous films, but TROS doesn't even hold up to the most superficial level of scrutiny. Nothing that happens makes any sense.
What doesn't make sense is Palpatine could have lifted the Final Order and destroyed the last few Resistance ships in TLJ with this now being canon. There was no reason to hide this fleet, no advantage to him. Hell, he didn't need Kylo; he could just make a few Snokes to kick ass. It was just such a strange movie.
 

Gifmaker

Member
Oct 29, 2017
831
Interestingly, plenty of Star Wars fans were picky about TESB and ROTJ. This should be a learning lesson that fans aren't filmmakers, many are bad writers, and what "people want" isn't necessarily what makes a good movie considering how few character moments and how overstuffed and zany this movie turned out. There was nothing to rectify; there was plenty to build.
Judging from polls, TLJ pissed off almost half the fandom. I would say rectifying some things was a necessity.
 

blomby

Member
Nov 14, 2019
61
Star Wars idea guy thread. Love the idea.’ Pretty controversial takes but frankly different ideas are good. We need more ideas and takes in the Star Wars discussion. We need it, master. Feed me big thinkies on the space suck, master. WOW, WOW, it’s fucking words on the bad thing.
 

Oozer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,727
I honestly don't understand how people can look at this outline and think it looks good. It's insane to me.
It avoids almost all of the pitfalls of The Rise of Skywalker. No Palpatine, no Rey Palpatine, no Rey "Skywalker," no MacGuffin juggling. Kylo's story makes more sense, and there's more Rose. I'd need to actually read the draft myself to really get a good feel for it, but I like it more in theory.
 

Pop-O-Matic

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,030
Star Wars idea guy thread. Love the idea.’ Pretty controversial takes but frankly different ideas are good. We need more ideas and takes in the Star Wars discussion. We need it, master. Feed me big thinkies on the space suck, master. WOW, WOW, it’s fucking words on the bad thing.
...is this even English?
 

cognizant

Member
Dec 19, 2017
6,474
You usually get hired or fired in Hollywood based on interpersonal relationships, not talent, so in addition to his movie flopping hard which no doubt spooked Lucasfilm, if Trevorrow wasn't so abrasive he still might have been able to keep his job. I'd read that the guy is really arrogant, which comes off as obnoxious considering how fast he went from indie movie debut to directing blockbusters. Someone like James Cameron being arrogant is something you can deal with, he's got the experience and contacts to get away with it, but a relative newcomer like Trevorrow acting that way just doesn't work out.

Which is a shame, as flawed as his take was, it is so much more interesting than the garbage we got from JJ.
 

Gifmaker

Member
Oct 29, 2017
831
The type of person that would care enough about Star Wars to respond to a poll regarding TLJ probably makes up 1% of the total audience.
And is the person who keeps the franchise alive by caring enough to invest in merchandise, comics, books, D+ subscriptions, amusement parks, etc. In other words, the most important 1% of that audience. The one you would not want to scare away from your franchise.
 

caliph95

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,551
I've seen all these movies except the prequel and I have no idea what this "Rule of Two" is that I keep seeing mentioned in these threads.
Long story short The Sith keep falling because while the Jedi don't have raw power they actually emphasize working with each other for the common good

Sith on the other hand not as much and encourages people to backstab and sabotage each other to gain power because that's shows you're a bad mofo and fuck doing things for other people

So the sith keeps losing because their actual philosophy isn't self sustaining

Darth Bane realized this and just killed everyone else and decided only two is enough The Master and apprentice so they can get shit done
 

Stat

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,660
Interesting but I dont think better. I kinda liked TFA but just wish the last 20 minutes were a little improved
 

Lifejumper

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,476
Judging from polls, TLJ pissed off almost half the fandom. I would say rectifying some things was a necessity.
If TROS rectified the choices made in TLJ how did it have a worse critical reception, worse WOM and cinemascore?

LF tried to please “fans” who were always going to shit on these movies.

Ironic.
 

♡♪!?

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,360
And is the person who keeps the franchise alive by caring enough to invest in merchandise, comics, books, D+ subscriptions, amusement parks, etc. In other words, the most important 1% of that audience. The one you would not want to scare away from your franchise.
The hardcore fans who hated TLJ will watch and pay for any SW film as long as it has jedi as the main characters, and has a good premise. Catering to their demands are unnecessary and will make a clumsy movie, if the story is not for being written for pushing the established story e.g 'The Dead Speak'
 

DeoGame

Member
Dec 11, 2018
913
If TROS rectified the choices made in TLJ how did it have a worse critical reception, worse WOM and cinemascore?

LF tried to please “fans” who were always going to shit on these movies.

Ironic.
Worse Critical Reception because it undid the acclaimed last movie, worse WOM/Conemascore as these choices angered TLJ fans and were seen as a bandaid on a gaping flesh wound by TLJ haters. I thoroughly disliked these ST movies and while I appreciate that JJ and Terrio tried to rectify things, it was too little, too late. The best they could do is what Trevorrow is doing, and make the best out of (in my eyes) a bad situation, build off of Rian's lack of setup and at least try to conclude the character arcs set up in TFA and namely ignored in both (i.e. Poe becoming a leader, Rey re-establishing the Jedi Order with Luke's help, Finn breaking the First Order's mind control). Instead, we got JJ's Episode 8 and 9 in one 2 and a half hour movie and it didn't work
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,378
Force Ghosts being used as a means of Terrorizing people would completely destroy what the whole concept of Force Ghosts are. They aren't there so you can be an asshole to someone you want to torment. Force Ghosts exist to pass on Knowledge and in Lucas's case to keep the Order alive even if the last Jedi dies because select few Jedi were enlightened enough to transcend death and be able to pass on knowledge.

People cheer stuff like this on then complain Palaptine ruined the chosen one prophecy or other crap
Except Luke's Force Ghost in Treverrow's script doesn't appear to be terrorizing Kylo, he's trying to teach him, to bring him back to the Light.
 

DeoGame

Member
Dec 11, 2018
913
The hardcore fans who hated TLJ will watch and pay for any SW film as long as it has jedi as the main characters, and has a good premise. Catering to their demands are unnecessary and will make a clumsy movie, if the story is not for being written for pushing the established story e.g 'The Dead Speak'
Like all things, there's a balance. A light and dark side if you will. If you don't cater to the fans at all, you get TLJ, GOT S8, etc. and the brand loyalty can be irrepurably damaged. Many people did not pay to see TROS or only saw it once. The 1% of fans helps excite the 99%, brings their family, their friends, this is an awful market to lose. It's significantly harder to win a new fan than to keep an old one. Look at China's BO numbers for SW.

That said, you exclusively cater to the 1% and the movie can become incomprehensible nonsense. Look at Batman V. Superman. I loved it and my fanboy friends did too. My friends and family with limited knowledge of DC thought it was a nonsense stuffed mess, and they aren't wrong. While moments like the Knightmare are awesome to see in Live Action, it means little to most.

It's all about the balance.
 

Orb

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,104
USA
I think this has some better ideas than what TROS became, and some worse. Overall they both far missed the mark set by TLJ, which is and always will be the best Star Wars movie.
 

♡♪!?

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,360
Like all things, there's a balance. A light and dark side if you will. If you don't cater to the fans at all, you get TLJ, GOT S8, etc. and the brand loyalty can be irrepurably damaged. Many people did not pay to see TROS or only saw it once. The 1% of fans helps excite the 99%, brings their family, their friends, this is an awful market to lose. It's significantly harder to win a new fan than to keep an old one. Look at China's BO numbers for SW.

That said, you exclusively cater to the 1% and the movie can become incomprehensible nonsense. Look at Batman V. Superman. I loved it and my fanboy friends did too. My friends and family with limited knowledge of DC thought it was a nonsense stuffed mess, and they aren't wrong. While moments like the Knightmare are awesome to see in Live Action, it means little to most.

It's all about the balance.
Usually I agree but you shouldn't cater to people who think they need clichés to be a good SW film or live in an echo chamber of you tube videos, that are more interested in money than legitimate criticism. I really hope the next SW don't have to have a family twist, or the villian having to just be a cool looking guy like Darth Maul because as long as it had an iconic design it doesn't matter whether it's the right villian for the story... certainly don't sideline your old characters and like replace them with Richard E Grant playing another Tarkin. These ideas are counter productive to telling a great a story. I think the reason it has the lowest cinemscore is because the more main stream audience didn't feel engaged with zombie Palpatine as the villian, don't give a shit Rey is a Palpatine and this was a move likely made because that set of the fan base couldn't handle a new story and dynamic.

And as said you don't need to because those types of fans are so dedictated that that they still would have watched it anyway.
 

Anth0ny

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,180
Sounds more along the lines of what I always wanted: the best possible sequel coming off what The Last Jedi set up.

JJ and Terrio clearly refused to accept a bunch of shit from the movie, so their Episode 9 set up a bunch of bullshit (even though there was no time to eloquently do so), send the characters to get a thing, which will lead them to a thing. It's about as messy a direction as they could have possibly gone, all because they somehow couldn't follow up on TLJ. Kylo NEEDS to be redeemed, which means there NEEDS to be a true final boss behind him. Rey NEEDS to be somebody. fuck.

As Burnett explains in his video, it's not a sure thing that the script sounding good will translate to a good movie. And given it was a Trevorrow project, I kinda doubt it would have ended up much better than what we ultimately got with TROS? But no Sheev, Rey embracing her lack of heritage, Luke force ghost haunting Kylo, Rose doing stuff, Kylo training with a Sith master + parallels to Luke's training with Yoda, no macguffin quests... these all sound like good ideas, at least.

Also, Carrie's death would have thrown a wrench into this story anyways :(
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,914
Man I have trouble seeing how most of this is any better than what we got. I have large complaints about TRoS as well, but this grass doesn't look much greener to me. It's just bad in new and different ways.

The main thing people seem to like about it is that Rey is not a Palpatine, which follows TLJ better, sure. That's a point in their corner. Hux is better, and Rose is better. But almost everything else besides those? Kylo is worse. Leia is worse. Han is pointless. Poe is worse. Lando is worse. C3PO is worse. "Tor Vallum" is somehow worse. Babu Frik doesn't exist. The Falcon doesn't even work. There are just as many macguffins, just different macguffins. And in the end nothing very unexpected happens. Rey fights Ren, Resistance fights First Order, and both fights end with a win for the good guys, with Tor Vallum ultimately being as irrelevant as Snoke. Snore.
People have tunnelvision for the Rey thing and that's it.

So the first 15 minutes amounts to stealing a star destroyer that supplies the resistance with more ships. It's clearly a setup for the final battle. Sounds like a fun sequence but it might be more economical and impactful when in TRoS the galaxy (inspired by Luke and shown the way by Lando) comes to the aid of the diminished resistance all on their own, rather than the resistance capturing more ships for their navy. But as far as action scenes go, I'm sure this one would have been better than that chase scene on not-tattooine that nobody cared about, so I'll give it that.

After that it's basically the same scene as Kylo's TRoS opener. He goes to mustafar to find a triangular mcguffin that tells him to go to Exegol Remnicor to find Palpatine 3.0 Snoke 2.0 Tor Vallum. He finds Vallum and threatens him but ultimately serves him. Same exact shit. Plus, making Sidious second fiddle to another guy the whole time who just sat back doing jack shit for decades? Weak.
Is another unexplained Sheev stand-in really any better than Sheev himself? If you're not going Sheev after Snoke, then fully commit to Emperor Kylo instead. In fact, that would be better. Don't gimme another Sheev knockoff to boss Ben around.
Apparently Sheev left a "lol if i get killed vader's to-do list" plan even though selfish overconfidence was his entire thing and his only backup plan in prior canon was "burn it all the fuck down you aint gettin shit without me."

Kylo Ren learns the force power of vampiric life sucking from Palpatine Tor Vallum. I guess that's pretty neat. In TRoS that was reserved for the big bad. Coulda been fun to see Rey healing while Ren was out there doing the opposite at the same time.

Chancellor Hux on Coruscant sounds pretty good though. You know that weaselly little bastard would ham it up deliciously. And it would have been nice to see a brief glimpse of the First Order's actual reign over the galaxy. This is way better than him just getting shot and replaced as in TRoS. Would have loved that.

Luke is "haunting" Ben but that doesn't make sense because light side apparitions can't appear to people closed off to the light. This is how Ben could be fooled for so many years thinking he was communing with Vader's helmet without Anakin showing up to set him straight. If Luke can just show up whenever, that opens a huge plothole regarding why Anakin couldn't get off his fat fucking ghost ass. Yoda couldn't even chat with Luke in TLJ until he opened himself back up.

Rey and Ben's link manifests as bad dreams now. Major nerf. Toning it down? TRoS ramped it the fuck up instead and that was way better.
Kylo smashes Vader's helmet because he's decided he's finally over it. I mean why not have more scenes of Kylo smashing helmets I guess.
Leia isn't up to much but it is what it is. She dies in a First Order attack instead of anything to do with her son. Her TRoS death was weird but is this really better? It's very mundane.
Finn meets some more turncoat stormtroopers like him and rallies them...that sounds familiar.

It's reiterated pretty clearly that Rey doesn't have a fantastical lineage and is something totally "new," so answering the call is up to her. That's clearly more in line with TLJ than what we got with TRoS. So there's that.

Then the group splits up. Which is the opposite of what everyone has been hoping for this entire trilogy. Finn&Rose yet again go on their own sidemission separate from everyone else to find a macguffin, which was clearly everyone's favorite part of TLJ. Rey/Poe/Chewy are on their own macguffin quest to find the wayfinder to Exegol the map to Mortis.
Instead of the mind boggling clue-knife, instead they visit some telepath alien who looks into Rey's mind to decide where the plot should head next. Is that...better? That seems like just as much of a total asspull to me. Maybe not as convoluted.

Kylo Ren meanwhile is hardly involved in this story if you haven't noticed. It's literally a plot point with the First Order that he's been absent. First he goes off to kiss Snoke's Palpatine's Tor Vallum's ass and starts having cave visions. He gets to fight with Vader like Luke's vision in ESB. Which sounds pretty badass.
In this movie he finally decides to be a big boy and forget Vader... like he already did in TLJ. Like he also did earlier in this movie when he smashed the vader mask. I guess we're just doing that a second time. Or is this the third time? He also decides to pull a Snoke on Tor Vallum's ass so we're just repeating TLJ altogether now. His face also gets some new metal bits after a run in with evil lightning. This is almost the only character development he gets before he dies.

Knights of Ren? Well they have one cool fight scene as a group I guess. One of them gets to practically replace Kylo Ren in this movie for some reason since he's sitting most of it out.
Lando is contacted by the resistance to go rally some troops for them. That sounds familiar. Except in this script he refuses at first, I guess because this version is an asshole instead of a rebellion general.
Rey and Kylo are feeding off each other's force energy, binded together by it. Sounds a lot like the force dyad.
Broomboy makes his return to...exist! I'm sure everyone was pumped for the return of Temiri fuckin Blagg!
Poe doesn't feel like doing Leia's job and decides his previous arc was not his style, so he passes off those duties to Connix.
Chewy has to fly an Xwing because the Falcon was fucked earlier in the movie after the script's equivalent of the lightspeed skipping scene. It's not just on fire, it's out of commission for the rest of the entire movie.
Han Solo shows up to appeal to Ben, but in this it's yet another failed attempt like last time. Luke also fails to have any impact. Sad trombone.
The ghosts of jedi past show up to aid Rey in her battle.
By now I'm sure it's very clear why Colin got a writing credit on TRoS.

Kylo Ren gets defeated and dies. That's the end of his participation in this movie. That was all of it. He gets whipped by another Snoke, smashes another mask, cuts another Snoke up, gets in a fight and dies. Fuck off Ben.
Meanwhile the rest of the resistance is taking on the First Order forces on Coruscant. Sounds like a pretty straightforward spaceship fight for the most part, and the First Order loses.
They try to escape but Rose fucked up their navigation systems so I guess that's a positive that she got to do something.

By the way Luke's death didn't inspire shit in this version, because toward the end of this movie it's a transmission from Rey that earns them new pilots. Nobody was going to do shit before that. Not even Lando, who explicitly refused. Dude left the resistance high and dry until Rey's message. Fuck Luke I guess.

The end?
 
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♡♪!?

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,360
Man I have trouble seeing how most of this is any better than what we got. I have large complaints about TRoS as well, but this grass doesn't look much greener to me. It's just bad in new and different ways.

The main thing people seem to like about it is that Rey is not a Palpatine, which follows TLJ better, sure. That's a point in their corner. Hux is better, and Rose is better. But almost everything else besides those? Kylo is worse. Leia is worse. Han is pointless. Poe is worse. Lando is worse. C3PO is worse. "Tor Vallum" is somehow worse. Babu Frik doesn't exist. The Falcon doesn't even work. There are just as many macguffins, just different macguffins. And in the end nothing very unexpected happens. Rey fights Ren, Resistance fights First Order, and both fights end with a win for the good guys, with Tor Vallum ultimately being as irrelevant as Snoke. Snore.
Even if Trevorrow's directing was mediocre, it would have been better than what we got. "You're a Palpatine" so cheesy and missing the point. The last scene of TLJ was saying "The hero can be you" it was cute and nice. Either it went over their head or didn't care.

But indeed it's not just that, it's not doing anything with supreme leader Ren, and snubbing Hux and Rose, who weren't the most popular but deserved a story considering they were suporting characters
 

Lunar Wolf

Member
Nov 6, 2017
10,723
Los Angeles

a916

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,671
MakingStarWars.net has a good track record right?

They have some more to add to the leak and this one seen that is just all sorts of cringey:

Hux was a villain, not a Resistance spy. There’s a funny scene where he’s alone and we see him trying to move a coin with the Force, envious of others who have this gift. When he tries to extract info from Rose’s mind, she just laughs at him. In the end, he kills himself seppuku-style with a lightsaber he keeps in a collector’s case (he had several vintage lightsabers he’d acquired over the years, part of his “Force envy”, as Rose calls it)
So Hux just becomes Argus Filch
 

Sendero

Member
Oct 25, 2017
282
The final draft feels more chaotic and unfocused than the original.
That Sollony fella being the final boss made everything pretty anticlimactic, and almost assuredly gave JJ the idea that:

Well, if you are going to give some random person, Palpatine's power, you might as well have him instead.
And why have said random girl, when you can have Rey herself, the one being offered Palpatine's legacy.
And why leaving Rey come from a random family, when...



So, at the end, rather than starting from scratch, JJ actually reused a large portion of Trevorrow's work. Chopping every bit that still made it somewhat coherent, in the process.
Plus trading Rose/Poe/Finn arcs, plus Coruscant and Mortis, with.. space horses.
And somehow, such Frankenstein was OK'd to being the end to SW Trilogy of trilogies.

Way to go.
 

JB1981

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
11,842
Man I have trouble seeing how most of this is any better than what we got. I have large complaints about TRoS as well, but this grass doesn't look much greener to me. It's just bad in new and different ways.

The main thing people seem to like about it is that Rey is not a Palpatine, which follows TLJ better, sure. That's a point in their corner. Hux is better, and Rose is better. But almost everything else besides those? Kylo is worse. Leia is worse. Han is pointless. Poe is worse. Lando is worse. C3PO is worse. "Tor Vallum" is somehow worse. Babu Frik doesn't exist. The Falcon doesn't even work. There are just as many macguffins, just different macguffins. And in the end nothing very unexpected happens. Rey fights Ren, Resistance fights First Order, and both fights end with a win for the good guys, with Tor Vallum ultimately being as irrelevant as Snoke. Snore.
People have tunnelvision for the Rey thing and that's it.
Lol. Thanks for the detailed summary.
 

Wonderment

Moderator
Oct 27, 2017
11,262
I watched the Screencrush video describing and summarizing this. The biggest issue with this treatment is that everything is just so...literally expository.

There were slaves in TLJ? Ok let's really show slaves.

Rey is "no one"? Ok, let's have a scene saying it for real, then something about your own destiny even though that's not how the force works, then later describe how we think the force works anyway. Oh and let's make one of the movie characters a force fanboy out of nowhere and let him dispose of himself, even though Kylo has already been fanboying the dark side throughout the trilogy. Based on these misunderstandings of the force, going to Mortis was an unearned conceit.

Tie the 9 movies together? Ok let's turn R2 into a holographic projector clip show, even though TLJ already did this to sufficient effect in a more resonant way.

Jam signals, then manage to send out one of our own across the galaxy? Already been there and back in Star Wars Rebels, so much for "ha-ha you thought they'd be doing the same thing Star Wars did previously." Plus, the end of TLJ already showed the message was clearly received, even by the disadvantaged in the galaxy. Why would you spend time doing this again on-screen anyway?

What seems really impractical, though, is maiming on-screen the two main beautiful movie stars, and bringing back Harrison Ford just to kill him again on camera. Not to mention turning Luke into basically the Joker to Kylo's brooding dark knight.

Yeah, these are far less practical and out-of-touch with the force than "palp laid low with the force and the sith". This leaked treatment also feels like someone watched TROS and then shifted bits and pieces around to make this - but the reverse of this is also plausible.

Anyhoo, back to enjoying things and stuff.