AV Club: Turns out Colin Trevorrow's version of Star Wars: Episode IX was good, actually

Principate

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Oct 31, 2017
8,179
Yeah like it could easily be written to be logical if Vader was lying about things to Luke, it's just....why would you do that? You're going back on the great climax of your last film and you only got one left to introduce and set up something new, better, and to resolve it.......good luck.

Now yes of course the greatest writer/director could make it all work and come up with something even better, nothing is impossible. But that wasn't JJ/Terrio and Trev's track record sure ain't immaculate. Yeah Trev's version is far better than JJ's, I said that, the problem is IMO its still not so much better than TLJ's that it was worth screwing around with, so I call it dumb. The whole thing just feels so indicative of how none of them were on the same page, LF management should have made sure they were.
This is completely different to the Vader lying as Vader being Anakin is easily verifiable through Obi wan who is still in contact with Luke and Yoda. The film sets up that Kylo doesn't actually know the answer to Rey's parentage (and neither does rey nor anyone else), if he did he would have been far more involved than he's letting on. So the fact the Ren is manipulating Rey is both conceivable and it's very difficult for Rey to disapprove so there's no why would he lie conundrum like there was with Vader because Vader has no reason to be considered to be lying from a audience point of view because Obi Wan is still around as ghost and as is yoda.

There was great benefit to the lie for Ren and based on the information we knew at the time he couldn't be found out so it was the perfect opportunity to lie.
 

DiipuSurotu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,098
France
Not sure if I like the name Rey Solana... In a vacuum it sounds badass, but it also reminds me of real-life Spanish politician Javier Solana, which is not what I want to be reminded of when I watch Star Wars lol
 

Arkanius

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,009
I'm never returning to this thread because of how mad I am that all of this, despite not being particularly great, is leagues better than the shitshow we got and at least made sense as a sequel to The Last Jedi
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,438
England
I'm a firm Rendemption voter, but damn if some of this "Rey fucking mercs Kylo" art isn't cool as shit :P

She should've killed him.

Even ignoring what he did, or was an accessory to, as part of the First Order, he was physically and emotionally abusive to a young woman he was ten years older than.

If he was so desperate to be like his grandfather she should've chopped his limbs off and thrown him into a lava pit.
 

Big One

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,078
If I was Disney I'd put all my money doing like a 10 episode series extending the plot of Episode IX with a lot of these cut concepts. Have it focus on side characters like Rose as a kind of "Heroes Behind the Heroes" thing with the main cast making cameos outside of like one or two of them.
 

The Silver

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,040
This is completely different to the Vader lying as Vader being Anakin is easily verifiable through Obi wan who is still in contact with Luke and Yoda. The film sets up that Kylo doesn't actually know the answer to Rey's parentage (and neither does rey nor anyone else), if he did he would have been far more involved than he's letting on. So the fact the Ren is manipulating Rey is both conceivable and it's very difficult for Rey to disapprove so there's no why would he lie conundrum like there was with Vader because Vader has no reason to be considered to be lying from a audience point of view because Obi Wan is still around as ghost and as is yoda.

There was great benefit to the lie for Ren and based on the information we knew at the time he couldn't be found out so it was the perfect opportunity to lie.
What film sets up Rey and Ren as not knowing? The intention in TLJ is that she and thus Kylo, did know. TROS and Trev makes it so she didn't, I don't know which one you're talking about.


Vader doesn't know anything about ghost Obi Wan or Yoda being around, he thinks no one is around who could expose him(if he were lying) that's the in story wriggle room. Many of the audience at the time thought Vader was lying cause there was still room for him to be lying. Obi Wan telling a contradicting story was one of the big sticking points for people believing Vader was a liar. It got to the point George was convinced to put in the scene of Yoda and Obi Wan confirming it just for that reason and we got the infamous certain point of view quote. Funny, this whole is an example of how you can change something and make it better overall, Vader wasn't originally Luke's father. Though Obi-Wan's story wasn't the emotional climax of ANH so that is kind of a major difference.

The question of any of this being logical in story is not the point here. Someone could have made Vader lying work, nothing's impossible, even though I think that pretty much would be impossible. Of course you can have it make perfect sense that TLJ wasn't the full truth and it flows well and yada yadda. If you do that and try to add on and/or change the resonance of a well executed climax, it better have been the plan all along to serve a greater theme and/or you better be a writing god cause the deck is stacked against you. Do anything you want, just hopefully do it good, what we got wasn't.
 

Principate

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Oct 31, 2017
8,179
What film sets up Rey and Ren as not knowing? The intention in TLJ is that she and thus Kylo, did know. TROS and Trev makes it so she didn't, I don't know which one you're talking about.


Vader doesn't know anything about ghost Obi Wan or Yoda being around, he thinks no one is around who could expose him(if he were lying) that's the in story wriggle room. Many of the audience at the time thought Vader was lying cause there was still room for him to be lying. Obi Wan telling a contradicting story was one of the big sticking points for people believing Vader was a liar. It got to the point George was convinced to put in the scene of Yoda and Obi Wan confirming it just for that reason and we got the infamous certain point of view quote. Funny, this whole is an example of how you can change something and make it better overall, Vader wasn't originally Luke's father. Though Obi-Wan's story wasn't the emotional climax of ANH so that is kind of a major difference.

The question of any of this being logical in story is not the point here. Someone could have made Vader lying work, nothing's impossible, even though I think that pretty much would be impossible. Of course you can have it make perfect sense that TLJ wasn't the full truth and it flows well and yada yadda. If you do that and try to add on and/or change the resonance of a well executed climax, it better have been the plan all along to serve a greater theme and/or you better be a writing god cause the deck is stacked against you. Do anything you want, just hopefully do it good, what we got wasn't.
The audience does though which which is why it's far more anti-climatic not meaningful as twist to revert which is what talking about in the Vader comparison. Kylo actively manipulating Rey not just through their relationship but through colouring her perception of the past, playing on what she believes to be true, is far more interesting from a characterisation point of than him simply acting as proxy to tell her what she already knows, one is very passive the other shows a higher level of thought to his actions that could be explored in the next film as further source of conflict.
 

The Silver

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,040
The audience does though which which is why it's far more anti-climatic not meaningful as twist to revert which is what talking about in the Vader comparison. Kylo actively manipulating Rey not just through their relationship but through colouring her perception of the past, playing on what she believes to be true, is far more interesting from a characterisation point of than him simply acting as proxy to tell her what she already knows, one is very passive the other shows a higher level of thought to his actions that could be explored in the next film as further source of conflict.
I don't know what you're arguing about. The audience does what? I don't understand your first sentence.

As for the rest, I'm repeating myself here, yes you could make it work, you can make many things work, some harder than others. But for me that is not what happened. If you think Kylo lying and Rey not knowing is a better concept in general then ok, I vehemently disagree but sure you can like it, that's fine. Rey's parents loving her or not is the core issue cause that is what's set up as the core of Rey's demons, that is what opens her up to manipulation and making dumb moves like going straight to Snoke.

To take that back and give Rey exactly what she wanted all along with good parents and a grand story of how they heroically tried to save her and she's royalty and blah blah is something I will never get behind. Rey's character arc and the message behind it is lesser for it. Trev just didn't go nearly as far as JJ. TLJ was very definitive in its theming. I'm not thinking about it in the context of "oh but what about the next movie" that's LFs fault for not getting these directors on the same page.
 

Principate

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Oct 31, 2017
8,179
I don't know what you're arguing about. The audience does what? I don't understand your first sentence.

As for the rest, I'm repeating myself here, yes you could make it work, you can make many things work, some harder than others. But for me that is not what happened. If you think Kylo lying and Rey not knowing is a better concept in general then ok, I vehemently disagree but sure you can like it, that's fine. Rey's parents loving her or not is the core issue cause that is what's set up as the core of Rey's demons, that is what opens her up to manipulation and making dumb moves like going straight to Snoke. To take that back and give Rey exactly what she wanted all along with good parents and a grand story of how they heroically tried to save her and she's royalty and blah blah is something I will never get behind. Rey's character arc and the message behind it is lesser for it. Trev just didn't go nearly as far as JJ. TLJ was very definitive in its theming. I'm not thinking about it in the context of "oh but what about the next movie" that's LFs fault for not getting these directors on the same page.
Knows the Yoda is alive and that Luke can speak to obi wan. It's not about giving Rey what she wanted dude could have lied and Rey parents could have still be poor but not the total shit heels he portrayed them as to manipulated her. They could have been negligent deeply flawed parents that still loved her.

Kylo Ren's whole schtick is let the past die kill it if you have to have ending the jedi. Lying about this speak fits in with his character and stated goals in multiple ways.
 

Lifejumper

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,741
This was Rian Johnson’s explaining why he made a rey a nobody.

Rian Johns said:
For me it was a dramatic choice. It was just that her hearing - and also for the audience hearing that... if the answer had been, that's presented in this movie at least, in this context. If the answerpresented to her was, 'Your parents are so-and-so, here you go, here's your place in this story.' That would be the easiest thing for her to hear. And easiest thing for us to hear! Wish fulfillment. It'slike, 'Oh, great! That's who I am. That's that.' The hardest thing she could hear is, 'No, you're not going to get that answer, that definition.' In fact, the fact that you don't have that isgoing to be used against you by Kylo, to try and make you lean on him. You're going to have to find the strength to define yourself and stand on your own two feet.
I always go back to Empire - the moment of 'I am your father.' That moment right there, that was the hardest thing Luke, and also the audience, could have possibly heard. It took away the easy answer of, 'It's just a bad guy.'Suddenly you had to think of him in more complex terms. And Mark's amazing, 'No' that he delivers in response to that is also how we feel as an audience member! We hate that moment. It suddenly takes away the easyanswer and makes things very hard. And I was searching for what the answer would be in this movie that would have the same effect, and that was it.
The thing is, and again, it's totally open in terms of where it's going to go in the next one. My own take, I don't think he's lying in terms of playing chess in that moment. Maybe he is, I don't think so. It seems to me that he believes itBut, you know, certain point of view always comes into play in these movies.
Source

A much more powerful concept, JJ’s writing ain’t shit tbh.
 

The Silver

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Oct 28, 2017
6,040
Knows the Yoda is alive and that Luke can speak to obi wan. It's not about giving Rey what she wanted dude could have lied and Rey parents could have still be poor but not the total shit heels he potrayed them as to maniuplate her. They could have been negligent deeply flawed parents that still loved her.
You're talking hypotheticals, that is not what JJ or Trev did, they are who I am talking about. Their ideas are to give her loving parents who tragically died for her, giving her the special reasons she desperately wanted and now she no longer has any good internal struggle cause we got to wrap this shit up. JJ has..... grandpa Sheev......

TLJ's answer is the ultimate internal struggle for Rey. What you proposed is a very watered down version of it, she still gets her loving parents and gets the easier way out of just putting everything on lying Kylo instead of facing her own issues with nothing and no one to fall back on or blame. Sure you could still make an entertaining story out of it, but for me that's not better than just following what TLJ and not trying to be cute about it.
 

Principate

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Oct 31, 2017
8,179
You're talking hypotheticals, that is not what JJ or Trev did, they are who I am talking about. Their ideas are to give her loving parents who tragically died for her, giving her the special reasons she desperately wanted and now she no longer has any good internal struggle cause we got to wrap this shit up. JJ has..... grandpa Sheev......

TLJ's answer is the ultimate internal struggle for Rey. What you proposed is a very watered down version of it, she still gets her loving parents and gets the easier way out of just putting everything on lying Kylo instead of facing her own issues with nothing and no one to fall back on or blame. Sure you could still make an entertaining story out of it, but for me that's not better than just following what TLJ and not trying to be cute about it.
Nah i'm talking about a far more nuanced and complex version of it. Your scenario ends the parent question and removes it from the story and not actually dealing with the problems of her parents. It would be far difficult for a person to grapple with the fact their parents did care about them mistreated them none the less than the fact their parents were simply heartless ass holes and that's the end of that. If for example the parents were became entangled in a loan shark or a drug addition or were starving and couldn't afford to eat let alone pay for another mouth to feed that's more difficult to decompress and shines a spotlight into the environment they were in that cause those circumstances rather than simply being heartless assholes.
 

The Silver

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Oct 28, 2017
6,040
Nah i'm talking about a far more nuanced and complex version of it. Your scenario ends the parent question and removes it from the story and not actually dealing with the problems of her parents. It would be far difficult for a person to grapple with the fact their parents did care about them mistreated them none the less than the fact their parents were simply heartless ass holes and that's the end of that. If for example the parents were became entangled in a loan shark or a drug addition or were starving and couldn't afford to eat let alone pay for another mouth to feed that's more difficult to decompress and shines a spotlight into the environment they were in that cause those circumstances rather than simply being heartless assholes.
It's not my scenario, it's Rian's.

It's not "more nuanced" its unnecessary complications that don't really need to be there based on what was established as Rey's greatest fear. Rey doesn't get any good answers to help her make sense of it all, just the cold sadness that they just didn't want her, that's the story, and Kylo wants to fill that void with his manipulation. It's not even that they were evil, that would be an understandable reason, they just didn't care. Loan sharks, they were forced to, Watto came back? It's not their story its Rey's, she has to face that she'll never get a good reason and has to move on and stop deluding herself. You want a loan shark Watto conspiracy story for Rey's parents then you'll need to change what Rey is truly scared of for it to have similar resonance and now you're just rewriting the whole movie and I'm not gonna get into that.

You don't need to keep adding these sprawling things to a story, falling into the same trap JJ did in that you think there just has to be something "more". No not more, "keep it simple stupid".
 

Principate

Member
Oct 31, 2017
8,179
It's not my scenario, it's Rian's.

It's not "more nuanced" its unnecessary complications that don't really need to be there based on what was established as Rey's greatest fear. Rey doesn't get any good answers to help her make sense of it all, just the cold sadness that they just didn't want her, that's the story, and Kylo wants to fill that void with his manipulation. It's not even that they were evil, that would be an understandable reason, they just didn't care. Loan sharks, they were forced to, Watto came back? It's not their story its Rey's, she has to face that she'll never get a good reason and has to move on and stop deluding herself. You want a loan shark Watto conspiracy story for Rey's parents then you'll need to change what Rey is truly scared of for it to have similar resonance and now you're just rewriting the whole movie and I'm not gonna get into that.

You don't need to keep adding these sprawling things to a story, falling into the same trap JJ did in that you think there just has to be something "more". No not more, "keep it simple stupid".
It's not Rians either he left it open ended for a good reason and the fact kylo is blatantly manipulating her through these conversations would lead someone to think there's more going on which is why there's no script that simply left it like that.
 

Oozer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,794
Rey and Poe don't even meet in TFA! JJ was more concerned in setting up mystery box bullshit lol
I believe a scene was filmed for the end of The Force Awakens with Rey and Poe meeting for the first time, but it was cut. It appears in the novelization, which was based on the shooting script.

Yeah and I'm saying the fact that Kylo was knowingly lying and manipulating her in that scene is also a very logical point in that scene and wouldn't inherently be "bad" like your saying it's a question of how it was done.
It's not Rians either he left it open ended for a good reason and the fact kylo is blatantly manipulating her through these conversations would lead someone to think there's more going on which is why there's no script that simply left it like that.
Rian was explicit that as he wrote it, Kylo was not lying in that scene.

That’s what Kylo sees and that’s what he tells her and I think he’s not lying in that moment. That’s what he saw and she seems to believe it when she hears it. I don’t want to … I’m not writing the next film, we’ll see how they handle it going forward, and as we all know in these movies, there’s always a certain point of view that’s involved. But, for me, I’ll tell you that was the … I can understand why that answer doesn’t feel good. It’s not supposed to feel good. It’s supposed to be the hardest thing she could possibly hear in that moment.
The qualifications he has given here and elsewhere about the reveal come from him knowing that the next movie could undo it, even if that wasn't his intention. Heck, they might come from him already knowing that the next movie was going to undo it since J.J. and Chris talked to him before writing.

Kylo lying in that scene also doesn't really work. It needs to be the truth for it to be most effective. The scene is set up so that Rey is brought low enough that joining Kylo seems like something she might do. She needs to be devastated by the news and needs to see Kylo as candid and somewhat trustworthy, both so the news hits with maximum effect and to have him seem like a viable partner. Having him lie undermines both of those things.
 

Ether_Snake

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
5,753
It never made sense that Rey's parents being nobodies would be a big deal to her.

Rey's "mysterious parentage" was never a topic in TFA, it only became one due to poor writing/editing which led viewers to think the movie was hinting at some mystery parentage such as Luke being her father. People were even thinking she had her mind wiped or something. Yet there is no indication she didn't remember who her parents were, let alone that her memories were altered, only that she didn't know why they abandoned her and believed they would return.

TLJ made a big deal out of it as a result of TFA's poor problem, so it became a topic that hadn't even been set up. Kylo should have been telling her that they are dead, that he killed them, that they just sold her, or something along those lines, since her real worry was that she was abandoned and that her parents won't return. It shouldn't have been "They were nobodies!" "Oh no, not nobodies!".

JJ then made it even worst. This was supposed to be over with in TFA when Maz basically tells her "yeah they're dead and not coming back, you know it", Daisy Ridley was surprised people were wondering who her parents were after TFA came out. TFA screwed up, and it just got worst with each following movie. At least TLJ tried to correct what TFA had originally tried to convey.