AV Club: Turns out Colin Trevorrow's version of Star Wars: Episode IX was good, actually

cmdrshepard

The Fallen
Oct 30, 2017
595
Again it sounds too plot heavy and would have needed to have been broken down into two movies. Also Lukes force ghost haunts him which I like and the whole trilogy sets up the redemption of Ben Solo and it fails at the last hurdle? Yeah no there are still some major problems with this script and while I do enjoy TLJ I think too much happened in that movie that made it difficult to make a sequel that was not already planned out.
 

Sephzilla

Herald of Stoptimus Crime
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,712
Especially because of the core difference between Kylo and Anakin: Anakin wanted to be a good man, but he fell to the dark side. Kylo wants to be a bad guy, and fights against the light purposfully.

It makes sense that one can be redeemed and not the other.
Yup, it feels like Leia, Han, and Rey basically are trying to convince themselves that there's still good in Kylo Ren, not convince Kylo Ren that there's still good in him. In TFA and TLJ Kylo keeps doing terrible things and you just hear one of those characters go "but there's still good in him I swear" and Luke is just like "nah that kid's gone".
 
Dec 12, 2017
9,686
I get that, and it could absolutely be interesting, but I just think that would take too long, not follow up on already established character traits, and mean more focus on Kylo alone when we need him with the FO to avoid a big problem RoS had: a random McGuffin whose defeat somehow also ends the FO, even though they were doing fine without it.

Kylo and the FO are the big bads, not Kylo and [random new baddie].
I see that point but how about this: if we view Kylo and the FO through the lens of Bruce Wayne and WayneTech, it is possible for for WayneTech to function while its CEO playboy is off galavanting. The Kylo we had at the end of TLJ was one that was completely disillusioned by the FO and by extension, the conflict of war in general. Perhaps the power he seeks in a 3rd film is one that can remake all of it in his own image. That would take him on a quest parallel with whatever Chancellor Hux would do with "WayneTech".

It allows everyone but Rey to engage with the FO, allowing for a nice parallel to ROTJ without being deriative.

At the end of his quest to find Tor Valum, he instead finds Rey inside an empty tomb, symbolic of of the fool's errand he has been on for the last 3 films. Angered by his failure, he lashes out at Rey for one final battle.
 

Matt

The Terror that Flaps in the Night
Moderator
Oct 24, 2017
3,745
Yup, it feels like Leia, Han, and Rey basically are trying to convince themselves that there's still good in Kylo Ren, not convince Kylo Ren that there's still good in him. In TFA and TLJ Kylo keeps doing terrible things and you just hear one of those characters go "but there's still good in him I swear" and Luke is just like "nah that kid's gone".
Exactly. That's why his redemption feels so forced: he never wants to be redeemed. TFA had him explicitly fight for strength against the Light Side.

Kylo is exactly who he wants to be.
 
Nov 2, 2017
813
My only real qualms with this are lack of Finn, Tor Valum being weird when we already know of Plagueis (though this could be explained in a cool way, I just wouldn't want to downplay Plagueis), and a lack of ANAKIN. Most of it sounds pretty solid
 

Ocarina_117

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,166
A lovecraftian creature, powerful in the dark side, which doesn't give a fuck?

Damn that would have been dope.

Though it does sound very overstuffed for a single movie.

IMO TFA was quite a weak starting point for a new trilogy in that it only really develops Rey, somewhat.

TLJ, again, only developed Rey out of the main gang - it also left stuff to work with in regards to Kylo and Luke. But in regards to Finn, not much at all. Being a first order janitor and comic relief in TFA really killed any potential there. TLJ doesn't work as a middle movie in a trilogy. A part of a longer story, yes.
 

Sephzilla

Herald of Stoptimus Crime
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,712
Exactly. That's why his redemption feels so forced: he never wants to be redeemed. TFA had him explicitly fight for strength against the Light Side.

Kylo is exactly who he wants to be.
Kylo in TFA and TLJ sort of goes on a perfectly opposite arc that Luke goes on in the original trilogy, when you think about it
  • Luke using The Force and letting go of his attachments/tools to destroy the Death Star is him committing to the path of the Jedi
  • Kylo Ren letting go of his attachment and killing Han Solo is him committing to the path of the Dark Side
  • Luke almost killing Vader in rage is a moment of weakness
  • Kylo Ren refusing to kill Leia is a moment of weakness
  • In the throne room it's revealed that, yes, Luke is a Jedi and will never turn
  • In the throne room it's revealed that, yes, Kylo is evil and will never turn
So yeah, Kylo being redeemed in the end ultimately feels like it goes against what the first two movies were establishing.
 

Guy.brush

Member
Oct 27, 2017
842
I like that this script actually seemed to try and do proper world building.

e.g.
You have the Resistance trying to infiltrate and blow up Kuat Drive Yards which is pumping out the First Order destroyers and which has a proper history in the lore.
And in ROS, Palpatine just seems to conjure up 1000x Stardestroyers and pulls them out of the crust of Exogol.

Or how there is an uprising on actual Coruscant.
 

Matt

The Terror that Flaps in the Night
Moderator
Oct 24, 2017
3,745
I see that point but how about this: if we view Kylo and the FO through the lens of Bruce Wayne and WayneTech, it is possible for for WayneTech to function while its CEO playboy is off galavanting. The Kylo we had at the end of TLJ was one that was completely disillusioned by the FO and by extension, the conflict of war in general. Perhaps the power he seeks in a 3rd film is one that can remake all of it in his own image. That would take him on a quest parallel with whatever Chancellor Hux would do with "WayneTech".

It allows everyone but Rey to engage with the FO, allowing for a nice parallel to ROTJ without being deriative.

At the end of his quest to find Tor Valum, he instead finds Rey inside an empty tomb, symbolic of of the fool's errand he has been on for the last 3 films. Angered by his failure, he lashes out at Rey for one final battle.
I don't think that's quite right. Ren is reveling in violence and power by the end of TLJ, and the FO is fully under his command. That's what he has always wanted, to have ultimate power and no limits to its use.

Then we get to see how a power-crazed, essentially fanboy of evil isn't at all qualified to actually lead a galaxy. That's also the setup for a tragedy: Be careful what you wish for, because you just might get it.
 
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♡♪!?

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,321
Kylo not being redeemed is honestly my favorite thing about this treatment. Force Awakens and Last Jedi seem to make it pretty clear that Kylo Ren is committed to the path of the Dark Side and isn't redeemable.
Like mentioned before "no one is really gone" I think Kylo shouldn't have died a villain but he shouldn't have a traditional romantic/death ending either, like he was in Titanic or Final Fantasy. Being called 'Ben' seemed like it should have been foreshadowing, as that was an alias for a force user, and his obsession with power and 'you don't belong in this story' would have made it perfect that he would have become a lone wanderer, never being truly redeemed but still doing good. Having lectured Rey as a nobody, it would seem sweet and poetic that is what he becomes.
 

PhaZe 5

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,330
Punished Exile Ben is too good of an idea to not have happened and also gives us the potential of seeing Adam Driver again with a new take on the character as this incredibly tired, haunted man who wants to do good but is hated by the entire galaxy and can barely sleep without imagining some bounty hunter on his tail.
 

♡♪!?

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,321
Punished Exile Ben is too good of an idea to not have happened and also gives us the potential of seeing Adam Driver again with a new take on the character as this incredibly tired, haunted man who wants to do good but is hated by the entire galaxy and can barely sleep without imagining some bounty hunter on his tail.
It fits the story thematically, Rey becomes somebody and Ren becomes nobody. And being called Ben, his ending would have been in plain sight the whole time.
 

Principate

Member
Oct 31, 2017
7,890
Punished Exile Ben is too good of an idea to not have happened and also gives us the potential of seeing Adam Driver again with a new take on the character as this incredibly tired, haunted man who wants to do good but is hated by the entire galaxy and can barely sleep without imagining some bounty hunter on his tail.
Frankly punished exile Kylo ren would work in a tv series or over several movies after TLJ where some serious shit happened that rocked his beliefs but in the 3rd and final film of the trilogy it's a bit much
 

JoJoBae

Member
Oct 25, 2017
352
Layton, UT
Not having Palpatine and likely not feeling like the initial drop of a roller coaster for 2 hours would have made this better than what we got by a long shot. I already loved TFA and TLJ but going back to them after TRoS and actually having room to breathe in each scene was suddenly very refreshing.
 

Matt

The Terror that Flaps in the Night
Moderator
Oct 24, 2017
3,745
Kylo in TFA and TLJ sort of goes on a perfectly opposite arc that Luke goes on in the original trilogy, when you think about it
  • Luke using The Force and letting go of his attachments/tools to destroy the Death Star is him committing to the path of the Jedi
  • Kylo Ren letting go of his attachment and killing Han Solo is him committing to the path of the Dark Side
  • Luke almost killing Vader in rage is a moment of weakness
  • Kylo Ren refusing to kill Leia is a moment of weakness
  • In the throne room it's revealed that, yes, Luke is a Jedi and will never turn
  • In the throne room it's revealed that, yes, Kylo is evil and will never turn
So yeah, Kylo being redeemed in the end ultimately feels like it goes against what the first two movies were establishing.
That's a really good point with the Luke comparison.

It would have been like poetry, it could have rhymed.
 

Lunar Wolf

Member
Nov 6, 2017
10,692
Los Angeles
It fits the story thematically, Rey becomes somebody and Ren becomes nobody. And being called Ben, his ending would have been in plain sight the whole time.
Punished Kylo and/or Kylo Caligula would have been so much better for this character.
Punished Exile Ben is too good of an idea to not have happened and also gives us the potential of seeing Adam Driver again with a new take on the character as this incredibly tired, haunted man who wants to do good but is hated by the entire galaxy and can barely sleep without imagining some bounty hunter on his tail.
The most fitting punishment for him would have been to have him exiled to Tatooine where he becomes a moisture farmer and having his force powers stripped from him a la Firelord Ozai. The public doesn't know that Ben and Kylo Ren are the same person and they think Han and Leia's child just ended up some nobody loser.
 

Rocket Man

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,717
Sounds better than TROS, but looks jammed packed again. With a few more revisions and refining, this could've been an actual sequel to TLJ.
 

♡♪!?

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,321
Frankly punished exile Kylo ren would work in a tv series or over several movies after TLJ where some serious shit happened that rocked his beliefs but in the 3rd and final film of the trilogy it's a bit much
I'm not even sure it should be done for the sake of a TV story, I just think it fits his character arc. He said "no sith, no jedi" and he kind of gets that for himself, even if he loses his power and empire.
 

AlexFlame116

Member
Nov 17, 2017
16,666
Utah
Poor Finn doesn't get much in either script.

Also Tor Valum? What happened to Plagueis? Or is this the same person? Like Plagueis before he got his Sith name?
 

Wubby

Member
Oct 27, 2017
762
Japan!
I like that this script actually seemed to try and do proper world building.

e.g.
You have the Resistance trying to infiltrate and blow up Kuat Drive Yards which is pumping out the First Order destroyers and which has a proper history in the lore.
And in ROS, Palpatine just seems to conjure up 1000x Stardestroyers and pulls them out of the crust of Exogol.

Or how there is an uprising on actual Coruscant.

I would have loved to see Kuat Drive Yards on film instead of what we got with some mystery fleet/crew magically appearing out of the water. Coruscant would have been nice to see again as well. Stealing not just any Star Destroyer but an Eclipse class seems a bit silly though. Those ships should require thousands of people to operate.

No lame horse attack on top of a star destroyer sounds nice at least. Overall sounds much better than what we got.
 

Tobor

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,212
Richmond, VA
No matter which version they went with, one movie wasn’t enough. Should have been two movies, trilogy be damned. Call it the first Star Wars quadrilogy and move on.
 

Ether_Snake

Member
Oct 29, 2017
5,567
Sounds fake. No mention of what happens to Kylo’s master thing either. Doesn’t sound better than TRoS.
 

♡♪!?

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,321
The most fitting punishment for him would have been to have him exiled to Tatooine where he becomes a moisture farmer and having his force powers stripped from him a la Firelord Ozai. The public doesn't know that Ben and Kylo Ren are the same person and they think Han and Leia's child just ended up some nobody loser.
Luke says no one is really gone, so I don't think it should be as simple as punishment. It's doing what good he can, even if it will never be enough to justify the genocide of the first order, it's better than nothing, and it's more thought provoking than just an ironic punishment. For a series that has often had a black and white depiction of redemption and of a villain like Palpatine's being 100% evil, throw awrench in the middle and give the audience something to contemplate with. Even though SW is a classic story of simple morals, you can always add a new layer.
 

SerAardvark

Member
Oct 25, 2017
434
Overall this sounds like it had potential (assuming it's legit) but it could easily have ended up just as messy as ROS once it had to actually be executed.

The most fitting punishment for him would have been to have him exiled to Tatooine where he becomes a moisture farmer and having his force powers stripped from him a la Firelord Ozai. The public doesn't know that Ben and Kylo Ren are the same person and they think Han and Leia's child just ended up some nobody loser.
There's actually a precedent for this in the old EU - Ulic Qel-Droma fell to the Dark Side and was serving Exar Kun and had his connection to the Force severed after he was defeated.

I much prefer something along those lines to what we got (a half-baked "redemption" and Reylo kiss).
 
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♡♪!?

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,321
There's actually a precedent for this in the old EU - Ulic Qel-Droma fell to the Dark Side and was serving Exar Kun and had his connection to the Force severed after he was defeated.

I much prefer something along those lines to what we got (a half-baked "redemption" and Reylo kiss).
I like Kylo being in the same spot, if not literal, as Rey in the beginning of TFA. I know people like to sarcastically say poetry but honestly it would make sense.
 

jelly

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,548
There is a lot there that I doubt you could fit in one film but I like some of it, pretty new stuff and interesting locations. Yeah still a bit fan service but sounds like a lot of good scenarios rather than basically TROS nothing.

I'm guessing it was chucked the second they read no redemption, no big bad Palps and end of the saga, please buy a ticket, it's the end. This could have rolled into Episode X etc.
 

ZOONAMI

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
12,109
The opening scrawl actually makes sense at least whereas ROS is just a big old whaaaat from the jump.
 

milkyway

Member
May 17, 2018
1,346
Man this is a painful read because there's actually some really interesting ideas in there. Immediately better than TRoS because Palpatine isn't there and Kylo does not have a cringey horrible redemption arc. I feel like even if the movie wasn't super good, if it followed the basic framework outlined it would have been at least somewhat satisfying, but I also think TRoS is such an abysmal piece of shit (not just for a Star Wars movie but as cinema in general) that I would have taken anything else. I did assume that a lot of what we saw in TRoS was actually birthed from Colin Trevarrow though and his name was given top billing in the credits, but there's not a ton of overlap between this purported leak and TRoS.
 

Jackie Chan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,131
TBQH this doesn't read as much better to me, but it would have all been in execution. While I definitely would have appreciated a more tortured Kylo than we got, and I do think the Palpatine revival was really dumb I don't think this solves any of the real problems.

Also I don't think Star Wars purists would have liked this too much since this plot means that Palpatine was always breaking the rule of two all along: https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Rule_of_Two
 

CesareNorrez

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,574
Frankly punished exile Kylo ren would work in a tv series or over several movies after TLJ where some serious shit happened that rocked his beliefs but in the 3rd and final film of the trilogy it's a bit much
I'd say RoS kind of messed up by not showing his Ghost at the end. That's an in for anyone trying to bring Ben back. Episode X: The Search for Ben Solo. You can do some dumb shit where Rey travels through the Netherworld of the Force on a quest to bring Ben back. He's trapped in some sort of purgatory or even hell. Could get real weird with all kinds of Light and Dark Side mumbo jumbo and ancient Sith villains.
 

KingSnake

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,467
TBQH this doesn't read as much better to me, but it would have all been in execution. While I definitely would have appreciated a more tortured Kylo than we got, and I do think the Palpatine revival was really dumb I don't think this solves any of the real problems.

Also I don't think Star Wars purists would have liked this too much since this plot means that Palpatine was always breaking the rule of two all along: https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Rule_of_Two
Tor Valum doesn't sound like a Sith Lord though. It could have been just somebody who taught Palpatine the unnatural ways of the force at some point. An alien scholar of some sorts.
 

CrichtonKicks

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,868
I wouldn't sweat the whole "overstuffed" thing. This draft was way far enough out from the scheduled start of principal photography that the whole thing could have been tightened up on script revisions before filming commenced. Trevorrow was actually given a more than generous time for development.
 

Kurdel

Member
Nov 7, 2017
11,496
Also I don't think Star Wars purists would have liked this too much since this plot means that Palpatine was always breaking the rule of two all along: https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Rule_of_Two
I would love for 2 sets of Sith to cross each other at one point and be like "Wait- what?"

I am sure an apprentice or master who was thought dead, wakes up with slight amensia, and just keeps Sithing along the galaxy until they cross Sidious and Vader or some shit.

It has probably been done in the EU, they did everything lol
 

skeezx

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,109
No matter which version they went with, one movie wasn’t enough. Should have been two movies, trilogy be damned. Call it the first Star Wars quadrilogy and move on.
i'd go as far to say two movies wouldn't be enough. TLJ love it or hate it felt like a prologue to star wars in the 2020s, like it's branching off into some other deal that would never 'wrap up' anytime soon

as for this treatment (whether fake or not) sounds "better" but grain of salt
 

CrichtonKicks

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,868
I think "Sith", like "Jedi", is kind of meant to imply some kind of formal organization with goals and beliefs. Tor Vallum seems more like a chaotic being reveling in the dark side of the force. From that stand point I don't think it violate The Rule of Two.

Never mind that that the "Rule of Two" doesn't make a whole lot of sense anyway. Lucas himself ensured that when he had Ventress apprenticed to Count Dooku.