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Oct 25, 2017
32,274
Atlanta GA
ALSO had a backup robo Infinity Gauntlet all within like 2 seconds.

His suit is composed of nanoparts, as we've seen in both Infinity War and Endgame it can change forms at will to best suit his needs. It can easily form parts in the gauntlet for housing the Infinity Stones. The stones power is also being distributed across his entire suit rather than just a glove, and is capable of taking on their force & radiation so he doesn't have to. The snap does kill him, it's not a stretch to believe he can withstand the force of the completed gauntlet just long enough to do the deed.
 

Heid

Member
Jan 7, 2018
1,807
His suit is composed of nanoparts, as we've seen in both Infinity War and Endgame it can change forms at will to best suit his needs. It can easily form parts in the gauntlet for housing the Infinity Stones. The stones power is also being distributed across his entire suit rather than just a glove, and is capable of taking on their force & radiation so he doesn't have to. The snap does kill him, it's not a stretch to believe he can withstand the force of the completed gauntlet just long enough to do the deed.
Hmm guess so, would have liked to see those nanoparts just corrode and turn to ash after he used it then.

I figured they salvaged Thanos' Infinity Gauntlet for their robo gauntlet but what I'm looking up it seems its just entirely new? I just figured the Infinity Gauntlet was a unique item since it was forged with that dying star and all those Dwarves who Thanos made sure to kill lol
 

MechaOctobot

Member
Oct 27, 2017
95
Hmm guess so, would have liked to see those nanoparts just corrode and turn to ash after he used it then.

I figured they salvaged Thanos' Infinity Gauntlet for their robo gauntlet but what I'm looking up it seems its just entirely new? I just figured the Infinity Gauntlet was a unique item since it was forged with that dying star and all those Dwarves who Thanos made sure to kill lol

I think people are underestimating Rockets involvement in creating the nano-gauntlet. He went to Nidavellir where he witnessed the workings of the forge and it's not unlikely he examined the mold/cast for the infinity gauntlet. The improvised gauntlet Stark makes mid battle has none of the refinement of the gauntlet they crafted which is why he takes so much damage compared to Thanos (first snap) and Banner, even though the task he is snapping for required much less power than the other snaps. Or at least that's my take on it:)
 

LL_Decitrig

User-Requested Ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,334
Sunderland
- One thing about Romanov, why can't they just go back in time and get a past version of her and bring her back to the present? Which is exactly what happened with Gamora? And I guess the same could be done for Stark.

If she comes freely and refuses all offers of aid to return, yes. But if she becomes aware that the timeline she's transferred to depends on her future sacrifice, she might well (being a hero) feel just as obliged to go back as she felt, in 2023, that she must sacrifice her life for a chance to bring half the universe back to life.
 

MetalMagus

Avenger
Oct 16, 2018
1,645
Maine
Which means Optimus Prime is an animal rights advocate. <3

I mean, from his point of view, there's likely not much difference between human rights and animal rights.

I think people are underestimating Rockets involvement in creating the nano-gauntlet. He went to Nidavellir where he witnessed the workings of the forge and it's not unlikely he examined the mold/cast for the infinity gauntlet. The improvised gauntlet Stark makes mid battle has none of the refinement of the gauntlet they crafted which is why he takes so much damage compared to Thanos (first snap) and Banner, even though the task he is snapping for required much less power than the other snaps. Or at least that's my take on it:)

"Don't get too full of yourself Stark, you're only a genius on Earth." Rocket's the one that built the device that broke the Guardians out of prison in GotG1 and was responsible for fixing the ship in GotG2. When the Avengers team gets back together in Endgame we see him working on the Time platform. He's easily up there with Stark when it comes to engineering and likely helped to design the iron gauntlet.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
I mean, from his point of view, there's likely not much difference between human rights and animal rights.

In all seriousness, the recently-ended IDW run showed that Cybertronians with no humanoid alt modes (like Ravage and Laserbeak) were pariahs, considered disposable and pretty much non-citizens prior to the war, no matter that they were fully intelligent and even capable of normal speech. It would not be odd if human treatment of animals unconfortably reminded him of that.
 

ZattMurdock

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
10,333
Earth 616
I really love these Markus and McFeely interviews that are making the rounds, and how hard they are sticking to heir guns saying that Cap indeed lived his life in the MCU timeline. They even go out of their way to say that was the intention since The Winter Soldier. Since the film doesn't really contradicts that notion, only the Russos, I'lol sticking with them, since it makes sense:



 

Serpens007

Well, Tosca isn't for everyone
Moderator
Oct 31, 2017
8,124
Chile
As I said many pages ago.

It only makes sense if our MCU timeline is not the Prime timeline and it is created after the Avengers defeated Thanos (since there was only one way for that to happen)
 

ZattMurdock

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
10,333
Earth 616
As I said many pages ago.

It only makes sense if our MCU timeline is not the Prime timeline and it is created after the Avengers defeated Thanos (since there was only one way for that to happen)
Our MCU timeline is the prime timeline. The infinity stones were destroyed, but their energy is still out there. What creates branches is the absence of an infinity stone, other than that, the universe adjusts itself to make it all work.

Here is a hint of how the timeline could even do that:

Cap vs. Cap in 2012. Instead of thinking he is facing himself, 2012 Cap thinks that is Loki. That is a way of the timelines adjusting themselves to "work", imho. How Loki's situation will be resolved is a story for another day, but the screenwriters already went on record saying that Peggy met Steve again after she had a fall out with Souza. So it is completely feasible that Cap indeed lived through his very own timeline.
 

LL_Decitrig

User-Requested Ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,334
Sunderland
As I said many pages ago.

It only makes sense if our MCU timeline is not the Prime timeline and it is created after the Avengers defeated Thanos (since there was only one way for that to happen)

Here's the thing: all timelines are equal. There is no such thing as a prime timeline. Statistically some timelines with the narrative history we see up to the point where Steve goes into the past are the same that contain a living Steve married to Peggy, a talented and dedicated intelligence officer.
 

Trup1aya

Literally a train safety expert
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,323
I really love these Markus and McFeely interviews that are making the rounds, and how hard they are sticking to heir guns saying that Cap indeed lived his life in the MCU timeline. They even go out of their way to say that was the intention since The Winter Soldier. Since the film doesn't really contradicts that notion, only the Russos, I'lol sticking with them, since it makes sense:





The film explicitly contradicts that notion, by saying you can't change what already occurred in your own history.

The only way they insistence makes any sense is if Peggy was always Married to a Cap from the future- which is entirely possible since her husband is strangely absent from family photos- but even then, we're talking about alternate caps swapping timelines
 

ZattMurdock

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
10,333
Earth 616
The film explicitly contradicts that notion, by saying you can't change what already occurred in your own history.
That doesn't contradict it at all. If Cap's history was always stay in the past after the events of Endgame, there is nothing to alter to. If Cap always goes back to Peggy and stays there, after cutting all the branches returning the infinity stones, that would be a perfect time paradox.
 

DrForester

Mod of the Year 2006
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,645
They never showed what Rocket's time travel helmet looked like, did they? They did the montage of everyone putting the helmet on before activation, but skipped Rocket. Did they show it when he and Thor returned from Asgard?
 

Trup1aya

Literally a train safety expert
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,323
That doesn't contradict it at all. If Cap's history was always stay in the past after the events of Endgame, there is nothing to alter to. If Cap always goes back to Peggy and stays there, after cutting all the branches returning the infinity stones, that would be a perfect time paradox.

I agree Peggy could have always been with a Cap from the future. The logic they established doesn't allow that to be our main Cap.

If they can travel to the past of their own timeline, what's stopping them from killing baby Thanos in their own timeline? The whole point of the "many world's" solution Is That there are no paradoxes.

Edit: I think there's a reason they mention their intention, but also harp on the fact that Marvel may see it differently and their intention would require loop holes.

Edit2: another silly thing is that they think returning the stones somehow kills the alternate timelines. Then why did Banner say it saves those realities, and why did Cap bother returning Thor's hammer? At the end of the day, I'm pretty confident that their "intention" isn't going to be cannon.
 
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ZattMurdock

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
10,333
Earth 616
People really misunderstand "cutting all the branches"

But yeah I agree Peggy could have always been with a Cap from the future. The logic they established doesn't allow that to be our main Cap.

If they can travel to the past of their own timeline, what's stopping them from killing baby Thanos is their own timeline? The whole point of writing in the "many world's" solution was to avoid having to deal with Paradox...
You can't kill baby Thanos because what happended in the past can't be altered. But that doesn't mean that Cap wasn't supposed to go back to the Peggy of his timeline all along, hence, time paradox. Who gave the explanation you are citing was Hulk, the same that couldn't really make time travel work without Stark.
 

Serpens007

Well, Tosca isn't for everyone
Moderator
Oct 31, 2017
8,124
Chile
Our MCU timeline is the prime timeline. The infinity stones were destroyed, but their energy is still out there. What creates branches is the absence of an infinity stone, other than that, the universe adjusts itself to make it all work.

Here is a hint of how the timeline could even do that:

Cap vs. Cap in 2012. Instead of thinking he is facing himself, 2012 Cap thinks that is Loki. That is a way of the timelines adjusting themselves to "work", imho. How Loki's situation will be resolved is a story for another day, but the screenwriters already went on record saying that Peggy met Steve again after she had a fall out with Souza. So it is completely feasible that Cap indeed lived through his very own timeline.

Here's the thing: all timelines are equal. There is no such thing as a prime timeline. Statistically some timelines with the narrative history we see up to the point where Steve goes into the past are the same that contain a living Steve married to Peggy, a talented and dedicated intelligence officer.

The film explicitly contradicts that notion, by saying you can't change what already occurred in your own history.

The only way they insistence makes any sense is if Peggy was always Married to a Cap from the future- which is entirely possible since her husband is strangely absent from family photos- but even then, we're talking about alternate caps swapping timelines

That doesn't contradict it at all. If Cap's history was always stay in the past after the events of Endgame, there is nothing to alter to. If Cap always goes back to Peggy and stays there, after cutting all the branches returning the infinity stones, that would be a perfect time paradox.


God, we're back discussing time travel thanks to the writers.

Removing the Infinity Stones isn't the only way branches are created. The movie explicitely states, as Trup1aya says, that you can't change your own past. It says it in the middle of it. So whenever you travel to the past, you go to/create a branch because in the beggining, you weren't there.

Removing a stone creates a "dark" timeline, one where 1. the balance of the universe is shaken; and 2. the stone keepers, like TAO, don't have a way to defend against cosmic or interdimentional threats.

Since you can't change your own past, if Peggy was married to Cap in "our" timeline, that means that it isn't the Prime timeline, because there is already a Steve Rogers from an original timeline that came. It means also that there were a Prime timeline where Captain never comes back, or does it after giving Falcon the Shield.

So there are two possibilities:

1- The writers are wrong. Cap went to a different timeline and then came back (our MCU is the Prime timeline)

2- The writers are right. There have always been two Steves in our MCU timeline.


You can't kill baby Thanos because what happended in the past can't be altered. But that doesn't mean that Cap wasn't supposed to go back to the Peggy of his timeline all along, hence, time paradox. Who gave the explanation you are citing was Hulk, the same that couldn't really make time travel work without Stark.

Banner understands it, what he didn't get was the mechanics of going into the Quantum realm succesfully, but he got the theory even before Tony gave it a chance
 

TheMango55

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
5,788
That doesn't contradict it at all. If Cap's history was always stay in the past after the events of Endgame, there is nothing to alter to. If Cap always goes back to Peggy and stays there, after cutting all the branches returning the infinity stones, that would be a perfect time paradox.

Huh? how would that have always been his history? He was frozen in ice from 1945 to 2011. If he goes back in time to stay with Peggy, it's altering his past.

Directors ultimately have a greater say on the story of a movie, they can change storylines and dialogue at a whim long after writers have had their say.

Doesn't matter if Markus and McFeely think Cap spent his life with Peggy in the prime timeline, while knowingly letting Hydra infiltrate shield and then ultimately letting Peggy die alone in a nursing home with dementia while he's still clearly alive and well. Both the final text of the movie as well as the Russos have indicated that is impossible.
 

Sheng Long

Moderator
Oct 27, 2017
7,590
Earth
BW Origin story I am fully behind. They made Ant -Man and a talking Raccoon work so I'm pretty sure they can pull off anything they wanted to.
 

Trup1aya

Literally a train safety expert
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,323
You can't kill baby Thanos because what happended in the past can't be altered. But that doesn't mean that Cap wasn't supposed to go back to the Peggy of his timeline all along, hence, time paradox. Who gave the explanation you are citing was Hulk, the same that couldn't really make time travel work without Stark.

Where's the start of this paradox though? The linear Branch theory (there are no paradoxes) that guides the plot of the entire movie and your paradox theory (cap exists in a permanent loop) contradict each other.

Banner always understood the logic of timetravel , just not the engineering. Immediately after he tells TAO that returning the stones will save her reality, she responds that this is true IF they succeed and return them. So, she agrees with Banner that returning the stones will allow her timeline to continue, not erase it.

Beyond that, just think how sloppy the upcoming MCU would be if only the removal of infinity stones would create consequences for time travel. What's to stop someone from using this loophole to amass endless quantities of whatever they want?

-

Thor could repeatedly go back in time and get an endless supply of mjolnir. So long as he doesn't take an infinity stone, it doesn't affect anyone.

Tony died snapping, no worries! just go back in time, grab him and bring him to your timeline. His timeline won't miss him, because they'll all cease to exist - so long as you dont take a stone! And he'll be happy to see we won!

-

It's incredibly stupid.
 
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Interesting point - wasn't the scene of Cap visiting Peggy in Winter Soldier actually footage Whedon shot earlier that was used?

For all the speculation that Steve was left out of the photos Peggy hand and such, the scene hadn't been intended to support this kind of theory.

I dunno. I"m sticking with the Russos and what's on screen.
 

ZattMurdock

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
10,333
Earth 616
Where's the start of this paradox though? The Branch theory the guides every minute of the movie and your loop theory contradict each other.

Banner always understood the logic of timetravel , just not the engineering. Immediately after he tells TAO that returning the stones will save her reality, she responds that this is true IF they succeed and return them. So she agrees that returning the stones will allow her timeline to continue, not erase it.
The paradox starts when the Avengers go to a time travel. My theory - and the screenwriters - doesn't contradicts the film at all.

Let me try make it quite simple: the timelines with all the infinity stones make everything fall into place. Cap x Cap? 2012 Cap thinks that is Loki, their own intervention helps to make everything "work" somehow, although in an alternative branch. That moment on, there is indeed a branches timeline but it will work itself out because the stones are all there, unless somehow Loki scapes to our timeline somehow.

2014 Thanos was from our very own timeline, but the moment Thanos and his whole fleet were killed in 2023, that provoked an alternative timeline as well.

The time paradox works if we believe what the screenwriters say that Cap always married Peggy. It's the perfect time paradox - the only to happen in our own MCU timeline - because it was always supposed to happen that way.

Let's say that Cap once again comes back to 1970 to deliver the Tesseract. Nothing was really altered there, no one knows who they are. It's the quantum mission where they literally didn't change really any event significantly.

There, somehow, he learns that in fact he did marry Peggy. That he was there in that timeline - which is theirs - and there he learns that indeed, he can go back to Peggy.

Altering significantly the timeline would create an alternate timeline. If Steve is always supposed to go back to Peggy, then he staying there in secret is exactly what he needs to do to guarantee that the MCU timeline happens.
 

Cuburger

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,975
I really love these Markus and McFeely interviews that are making the rounds, and how hard they are sticking to heir guns saying that Cap indeed lived his life in the MCU timeline. They even go out of their way to say that was the intention since The Winter Soldier. Since the film doesn't really contradicts that notion, only the Russos, I'lol sticking with them, since it makes sense:




I think the explanation that Markus and McFeely are sticking to Cap living in the same timeline is that their job is to create the time travel logic in their story to be as self-contained as possible, so The Ancient One's line about creating a branch reality by removing a stone is their way of putting a set of rules for what can create a branch for this movie as well as what will allow them to "clip the branches" without the heroes' actions creating all kinds of problems by traveling through time. The issue is that they also make it very clear that the act of traveling to your past essentially creates a branched reality because any thing you do in your past can't effect your future, and that Back to the Future rules don't apply.

Steve staying in the same timeline means that Back to the Future rules may apply, since he'd essentially be rewriting the past by existing in it. It's interesting that Markus and McFeely were thinking about Steve having always been Peggy's husband and traveling through time being always something he was meant to do, and just that they'd kept that fact secret for years, but that also creates implications as much as him creating an alternate branch, as the Russo's have stated.

It's interesting that the movie lays out evidence for both, and seemingly contradicts itself, even in ways that Markus and McFeely specifically seem to have written in themselves, so it's not like the Russos and Kevin Feige high jacked the script to contradict them and make alternate realities still possible. I just think M&M's goal wasn't to set up alternate realities, just to find a way to introduce time travel and place the lid back on that can of worms as best as they could, but the can of worms is opened. In that sense, I think the Russo's interpretation makes more sense to me going forward than what M&M believe in the context of the film since their rules suggest that branching paths will occur regardless of removal of a Infinity Stone from a timeline, so The Ancient One may be either mistaken or was talking less about it being the only way to create a branch and more about how removing the Time Stone specifically from her perspective could have disastrous consequences due to how powerful it is, which sounds fair, because just the implications of collecting Infinity Stones from all different timelines to put in one timeline would really screw with reality.

We already see Loki getting the Space Stone and that seems like it would have huge implications for that timeline and Strange already visiting millions of potential futures that seemingly would also be timelines that would have to exist in order to visit them, since if they had one fixed timeline, you can't visit potential futures if the present hasn't been written yet. Especially since the way that Strange talks about the futures would make it seem like they are determined in their outcome with Tony's survival and then snap being the one outcome that is different among millions of iterations of the future.

They opened that can of worms, and it would seem that while M&M wouldn't have intended for there to be loose ends, Kevin Feige likely was counting on it which the implications we've seen in Far From Home (if Mysterio is telling the truth) as well as what it may mean for Loki's series, presuming we follow him on his Space Stone shenanigans, and also if they ever decide to revisit Steve's journey in replacing the stones, they'll have a chance to definitively choose and explanation, that may not fit with what Markus and McFeely intended.

In the Yahoo video, Markus and McFeely even point out that Steve would travel to 1948 after the events of Agent Carter, but that isn't something Steve would know about and shoot to catch Peggy on the rebound after her and Sousa didn't work out. That's just M&M trying to avoid any canon conflicts, which they've tried to weave around to the best of their ability. It's simply on the writers/creatives that pick up the baton from them to decide what actually happened.
 

Trup1aya

Literally a train safety expert
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,323
The paradox starts when the Avengers go to a time travel. My theory - and the screenwriters - doesn't contradicts the film at all.

Let me try make it quite simple: the timelines with all the infinity stones make everything fall into place. Cap x Cap? 2012 Cap thinks that is Loki, their own intervention helps to make everything "work" somehow, although in an alternative branch. That moment on, there is indeed a branches timeline but it will work itself out because the stones are all there, unless somehow Loki scapes to our timeline somehow.

2014 Thanos was from our very own timeline, but the moment Thanos and his whole fleet were killed in 2023, that provoked an alternative timeline as well.

The time paradox works if we believe what the screenwriters say that Cap always married Peggy. It's the perfect time paradox - the only to happen in our own MCU timeline - because it was always supposed to happen that way.

Let's say that Cap once again comes back to 1970 to deliver the Tesseract. Nothing was really altered there, no one knows who they are. It's the quantum mission where they literally didn't change really any event significantly.

There, somehow, he learns that in fact he did marry Peggy. That he was there in that timeline - which is theirs - and there he learns that indeed, he can go back to Peggy.

Altering significantly the timeline would create an alternate timeline. If Steve is always supposed to go back to Peggy, then he staying there in secret is exactly what he needs to do to guarantee that the MCU timeline happens.

Nah, you seem to think only major events create branches. The moment something happens that didn't happen the first time, it exists in a branch.

Originally there wasn't a Nebula from the future coexisting with 2014 Nebula. So what we witness in Endgame 2014 was a branch.

Originally 2012 Cap didn't fight himself. So we are witnessing a branch. The fact he thinks it's Loki is irrelevant.

Originally, in 1970 two people from the future didn't sneak into a base and steal a tesseract + Pym particles. Again, this is a branch.

These branches may not stray far from the OG timeline, but they are in fact different.

Branches theory suggests linear progressions in time. Beginnings and endings.

Your closed loop theory for Cap has no beginning or ending. while our Cap was on Ice there was a future Cap married to Peggy. And while that future Cap was on ice there was a future future cap married to Peggy. And while future future cap was on ice... Etc.It can be explained neatly with branch theory- they are all alternate Caps. But there's no precedent established in the movie for it to be a spontaneous closed loop with a single Cap.

And as I mentioned in my edit above, the notion that people can travel time without having to worry about dooming parallel timelines makes time travel too easy a solution. It's sloppy. There'd be nothing stopping them from going back and rescuing Tony before he sacrifices himself , and bringing him back to the present unsnapped world to replace dead Tony. As long as they don't bring infinity stones with them, the timeline they take him from gets clipped and they get a free Tony, who's just a few moments younger than everyone else. Yay!
 
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ZattMurdock

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
10,333
Earth 616
I think the explanation that Markus and McFeely are sticking to Cap living in the same timeline is that their job is to create the time travel logic in their story to be as self-contained as possible, so The Ancient One's line about creating a branch reality by removing a stone is their way of putting a set of rules for what can create a branch for this movie as well as what will allow them to "clip the branches" without the heroes' actions creating all kinds of problems by traveling through time. The issue is that they also make it very clear that the act of traveling to your past essentially creates a branched reality because any thing you do in your past can't effect your future, and that Back to the Future rules don't apply.

Steve staying in the same timeline means that Back to the Future rules may apply, since he'd essentially be rewriting the past by existing in it. It's interesting that Markus and McFeely were thinking about Steve having always been Peggy's husband and traveling through time being always something he was meant to do, and just that they'd kept that fact secret for years, but that also creates implications as much as him creating an alternate branch, as the Russo's have stated.

It's interesting that the movie lays out evidence for both, and seemingly contradicts itself, even in ways that Markus and McFeely specifically seem to have written in themselves, so it's not like the Russos and Kevin Feige high jacked the script to contradict them and make alternate realities still possible. I just think M&M's goal wasn't to set up alternate realities, just to find a way to introduce time travel and place the lid back on that can of worms as best as they could, but the can of worms is opened. In that sense, I think the Russo's interpretation makes more sense to me going forward than what M&M believe in the context of the film since their rules suggest that branching paths will occur regardless of removal of a Infinity Stone from a timeline, so The Ancient One may be either mistaken or was talking less about it being the only way to create a branch and more about how removing the Time Stone specifically from her perspective could have disastrous consequences due to how powerful it is, which sounds fair, because just the implications of collecting Infinity Stones from all different timelines to put in one timeline would really screw with reality.

We already see Loki getting the Space Stone and that seems like it would have huge implications for that timeline and Strange already visiting millions of potential futures that seemingly would also be timelines that would have to exist in order to visit them, since if they had one fixed timeline, you can't visit potential futures if the present hasn't been written yet. Especially since the way that Strange talks about the futures would make it seem like they are determined in their outcome with Tony's survival and then snap being the one outcome that is different among millions of iterations of the future.

They opened that can of worms, and it would seem that while M&M wouldn't have intended for there to be loose ends, Kevin Feige likely was counting on it which the implications we've seen in Far From Home (if Mysterio is telling the truth) as well as what it may mean for Loki's series, presuming we follow him on his Space Stone shenanigans, and also if they ever decide to revisit Steve's journey in replacing the stones, they'll have a chance to definitively choose and explanation, that may not fit with what Markus and McFeely intended.

Great write up, but here is what I diverge of what the Russos are saying and agree with M&M:

Back to the Future rules DO NOT apply. Steve and Peggy are a very specific case, it's the single time paradox that happens in the film. Everything else indeed are branched realities. The only way to DOOM it is without the infinity stones, but the paradox is that Steve always was supposed to go back. So it isn't like killing baby Thanos, because that wasn't supposed to happen. Steve going back and staying on his own timeline means that that was supposed to happen all along. Hence, time paradox, not really Back to the Future rules. Steve's "future" after Endgame was always in the past.

I'm pretty confident think that when it's all said and done, this will be the "canon" right answer.
 

onyx

Member
Dec 25, 2017
2,523
I avoided all spoilers and still knew it would be time travel. I guess the last season of Agents of Shield and the rumors of the Flashpoint movie had time travel on my mind. Once you time travel you can't close that can of worms again. They can ignore it but that seems boring.

Those 3 snaps happening on Earth is totally whats going to create mutants and a whole host of other things right? The stones being gone has to cause some consequences too.
 

Trike

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Nov 6, 2017
2,391
Is Captain America technically like 150 years old or something by the time he's back as an old man?
 

ZattMurdock

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
10,333
Earth 616
Is Captain America technically like 150 years old or something by the time he's back as an old man?
Let's do the math:

He was born July 4th, 1918. Endgame happens in 2023, so he was around 105 years old. The screenwriters say he went back to around 1948, AFTER the events of Agent Carter and Peggy falling out with Souza.

So... 75 years from 1948 until 2023 all over again. Assuming Cap didn't take years to return the stones, then he was 180 years old at the end of Endgame.
 
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Halbrand

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,615
I really love these Markus and McFeely interviews that are making the rounds, and how hard they are sticking to heir guns saying that Cap indeed lived his life in the MCU timeline. They even go out of their way to say that was the intention since The Winter Soldier. Since the film doesn't really contradicts that notion, only the Russos, I'lol sticking with them, since it makes sense:
I'm sticking with this explanation then too
 

Trike

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Nov 6, 2017
2,391
Let's do the math:

He was born July 4th, 2018. Endgame happens in 2023, so he was around 105 years old. The screenwriters say he went back to around 1948, AFTER the events of Agent Carter and Peggy falling out with Souza.

So... 75 years from 1948 until 2023 all over again. Assuming Cap didn't take years to return the stones, then he was 180 years old at the end of Endgame.

Thank you for the numbers, I could not find out where he returned to in the 1940s. That's crazy. Physically he would've been like 114-115 years old at the end of Endgame.
 

Alexandros

Member
Oct 26, 2017
17,800
Yeah I think it's clear that it was the writers' intention to have a loop that Cap closes by travelling back, which is what I believed from the start. In any case it doesn't really matter since both the Russo theory and the writers' theory are consistent with the rules the movie sets.
 

ZattMurdock

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
10,333
Earth 616
Another great interview by Markus and McFeely:



I want Kevin Feige to keep these guys around, I genuinely think they are a big part of the why the MCU works so well. Same for the Russo Brothers, but I'd be curious to see Markus and McFeely cut their teeth directing some things for the MCU. Maybe a Disney Plus show first?

And here is an interview with Jeffrey Ford and Matthew Schmidt, the editors of Endgame and Infinity War:

https://www.businessinsider.com/ins...emorable-i-am-iron-man-line-from-tony-stark-4
 
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Serpens007

Well, Tosca isn't for everyone
Moderator
Oct 31, 2017
8,124
Chile
What's funny is that both the Russos and M&M explanations makes sense if you settle in one of two options: The MCU timeline is the "prime" timeline, or it isn't.

Now if M&M suggest that there are two Steve Rogers even on the prime timeline, then they didn't understand what the movie ended up saying (you can't alter your past)
 
OP
OP
Oct 25, 2017
12,018
What's funny is that both the Russos and M&M explanations makes sense if you settle in one of two options: The MCU timeline is the "prime" timeline, or it isn't.

Now if M&M suggest that there are two Steve Rogers even on the prime timeline, then they didn't understand what the movie ended up saying (you can't alter your past)

The point of a time loop is that the past was never altered. There was always two Caps there. It's paradoxical, but that's the point.
 

KtotheRoc

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
56,616
tumblr_prg9kvxjIk1r5zq6ao1_540.gifv
 

Dan Thunder

Member
Nov 2, 2017
14,017
Funnily enough I always thought, even before the first trailer, that Cap would end up back in time with Peggy. It seemed likely that Cap or Tony would die but it seemed too on the nose to kill them both off so I assumed it'd be a good ending for Cap and would let him pass on the mantle. I think it was because I watched 'The Final Countdown' as a kid and remember the man who sent them on the mission in the present was revealed at the end to be the one who got stranded in the past!

On a side note I'll be interested to see how they go ahead with Sam as Captain America given that he has none of the enhanced powers of Steve or even Bucky.
 

Blader

Member
Oct 27, 2017
26,604
The point of a time loop is that the past was never altered. There was always two Caps there. It's paradoxical, but that's the point.
Right. Hulk says you can't change your future by changing your past. But Steve isn't changing his past. His past self is still asleep in the ice while his current self lives with Peggy. If he were to go fight in Korea as Captain America or stop a terrorist attack or give SHIELD any kind of heads up about HYDRA, the Chitauri, Bucky, etc. that would be changing history because Captain America wasn't doing anything in the 50s, 60s, 70s, et al. But if he lives life as a normal ordinary guy, as Mr. Peggy Carter, that's just fitting into established history. The fact that Peggy's husband has been kept unidentified this whole time helps, because if she had been married to someone else and now Steve is slipping into that role, that definitely changes history.
 

TheMango55

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
5,788
Right. Hulk says you can't change your future by changing your past. But Steve isn't changing his past. His past self is still asleep in the ice while his current self lives with Peggy. If he were to go fight in Korea as Captain America or stop a terrorist attack or give SHIELD any kind of heads up about HYDRA, the Chitauri, Bucky, etc. that would be changing history because Captain America wasn't doing anything in the 50s, 60s, 70s, et al. But if he lives life as a normal ordinary guy, as Mr. Peggy Carter, that's just fitting into established history. The fact that Peggy's husband has been kept unidentified this whole time helps, because if she had been married to someone else and now Steve is slipping into that role, that definitely changes history.

But by going back into the prime timeline he is changing EVERYONE's past, not just his. Even if he doesn't do anything and stays in hiding, his existence itself has altered the past, which the movie tells us is impossible.

Edit: plus him just allowing the most horrific things over the past 70 years to happen without interfering is character assassination of the highest order. I'm sure in his new reality he was active in some capacity helping the world, not just playing recluse.
 

Kalentan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,623
Another great interview by Markus and McFeely:



I want Kevin Feige to keep these guys around, I genuinely think they are a big part of the why the MCU works so well. Same for the Russo Brothers, but I'd be curious to see Markus and McFeely cut their teeth directing some things for the MCU. Maybe a Disney Plus show first?

And here is an interview with Jeffrey Ford and Matthew Schmidt, the editors of Endgame and Infinity War:

https://www.businessinsider.com/ins...emorable-i-am-iron-man-line-from-tony-stark-4


Honestly that interview makes it clear that the writers aren't sure about their own rules.

They say it doesn't work like Back to the Future.

They say: "That's what the Ancient One tells Bruce Banner—that generally speaking, it's only the removal of an Infinity Stone that creates a timeline."

But then say that the people they spoke to that helped create their idea of time travel said that any action would create a new timeline.

So then why are they saying in other interviews that it actually does work on Back to the Future logic for Captain?

Overall I think at this point for everyone's sanity it's just best to listen to the Russos. They have an easier explanation and aren't contradicting themselves.
 

DeltaRed

Member
Apr 27, 2018
5,746
Right. Hulk says you can't change your future by changing your past. But Steve isn't changing his past. His past self is still asleep in the ice while his current self lives with Peggy. If he were to go fight in Korea as Captain America or stop a terrorist attack or give SHIELD any kind of heads up about HYDRA, the Chitauri, Bucky, etc. that would be changing history because Captain America wasn't doing anything in the 50s, 60s, 70s, et al. But if he lives life as a normal ordinary guy, as Mr. Peggy Carter, that's just fitting into established history. The fact that Peggy's husband has been kept unidentified this whole time helps, because if she had been married to someone else and now Steve is slipping into that role, that definitely changes history.
If there are two Steves, one in the ice and one with Peggy, then the past has been altered.
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,316
But by going back into the prime timeline he is changing EVERYONE's past, not just his. Even if he doesn't do anything and stays in hiding, his existence itself has altered the past, which the movie tells us is impossible.

Edit: plus him just allowing the most horrific things over the past 70 years to happen without interfering is character assassination of the highest order. I'm sure in his new reality he was active in some capacity helping the world, not just playing recluse.


All it would mean is the MCU is an alternate timeline that branched off in 1945 or whatever
 

ZattMurdock

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
10,333
Earth 616
If there are two Steves, one in the ice and one with Peggy, then the past has been altered.
If the Avengers always go back to the past, then their own reality always has been altered. It's a time travel conundrum.

If Steve is the father of Peggy's kids, then he always was supposed to comeback. It's truly not hard to wrap around the concept at all. And it doesn't negate what the film says at all.
 

Alexandros

Member
Oct 26, 2017
17,800
It contradicts the movie though. I am on #TeamRussos on this one

I don't think it does. Since Cap was always supposed to go back in time, the main timeline we've been following is the one in which Cap did go back in time. It's possible that there is another timeline out there in which Cap never went back depending on the interpretation of the Ancient One, but that is not our main timeline.
 

DeltaRed

Member
Apr 27, 2018
5,746
If the Avengers always go back to the past, then their own reality always has been altered. It's a time travel conundrum.

If Steve is the father of Peggy's kids, then he always was supposed to comeback. It's truly not hard to wrap around the concept at all. And it doesn't negate what the film says at all.
It's not back to the future and you can't change the past. The movie spells it out.

The only way for there to be two Steve's is if the timeline was altered and the MCU isnt the main timeline but a branch.