No, you are correct. Please watch the video I've posted. The problem with Joe's theory is that Cap couldn't really travel from past to future. Only his "present" (either 2014, 2013, 2012, 1970, 1948) to further past. And everytime he does that, he creates an alternate timeline for just being there.
That's uh exactly what she says.The branch that TAO draws is like Cap showing up at the bench - the directors and screenwriters are confused/conflicted with what they're doing. TAO should have been more precise and mentioned that she was talking about possible futures, and that removing a timestone pretty much guarantees that something bad will happen in the future. Instead they went with some very confusing wording, where now people are talking as if TAO was talking about alternate timelines. Alternate timelines doesn't make sense w.r.t. multiverse time travel, instead, it's not an alternate timeline, it's just a doomed future.
This is nonsense because he's not traveling from the same timeline
Well yes the stones will correct the timeline at that point in spacetime continuum as long as their places in space time don’t contradict the past.Well, according with the directors, Steve can’t use his device from the PAST and go beep bop drop me off 5 feet to the left in the FUTURE. That way - past to the future - he would only be able to show up on that platform. Pay attention to the Russos themselves:
I want you to pay attention to this line that Joe Russo says around the 06:33 mark:
"So, if you go to the past, all you can do is create an alternate future".
And here is where Joe Russo’s explanation breaks the film. Cap can’t go from the past to the future and show up on that bench. Only thing he can do if their theory is to be believed is go back to the past, even if an alternate past or your own main past... and create an alternate future. Can you understand what I’m saying? I disagree that they are correct because that logic is flawed:
If Joe Russo is correct, yes, Cap lived in an alternate future with Peggy, because he went to the past and that became his present. Once Cap - even from minutes after - goes back to the "main" timeline, he is also creating an alternate future because, from his perspective, even through an alternate reality, that moment happened in the past, since that would be the only way he would be able to use the time travel gps: only to go back further in time, not really the other way around.
lmao, they’re all taking the piss. At this point I almost believe that the directors and screenwriters planned to give contradicting answers to make people argue forever. Especially with the final scene with Cap being so ambiguous. It’s impossible that they didn’t talk about this among themselves before shooting a multibillion dollar cultural touchstone movie that concludes a decade-long saga led by a dude that fully understands the comic book concepts they’re dealing with.By the way, regarding the whole timetravel discussion.. Feige just conclusively answered it on Reddit:
Q: 'The Russos and Markus/McFeely have recently shared some contradicting interpretations of Endgame's ending with Cap; whether he grows old in an alternate timeline or he grows old in the main MCU one, making him the father of Peggy's kids in Winter Soldier. Can you give us a definite canon answer for this?'
So, now that that's cleared up...
The writers' explanation also creates the exact same number of new timelines as the Russos'
There are no paradoxes because these are pocket universes that only exist in the Quantum Realm for the time needed to exist as long as the stones exist exactly where they are supposed to exist eventually correcting themselves. As long as the stone exist where they were, are and supposed to be, they will repair any paradoxes created instantly.It's a paradox plain and simple, the silly gotcha of "it's a closed loop ERGO you're not changing a past" is just silly to the extreme. Just because it's a "closed loop" doesn't make a lick of difference, it's a paradox either way. It doesn't matter if it "already happened" in your past, you are still in your own past, which is incompatible with multiverse type time travel.
These paradoxes is why it's discounted by physicists, and why they insisted on the the multiverse type of time travel. Paradox type time travel wouldn't even be logically possible to entertain, let alone as a fleshed out hypothesis.
No that's not how any of this worksSteve can live in an alternate timeline but those timelines can merge once the past timeline catches upto the present as long as the positions of the stones in the SpaceTime continuum don’t contradict each other at any point during that time he spent in the past. He would have lived ~78 years in an atomic second. But the stones would recorrect the whole timeline to remove any paradoxes throughout spaceTime as long as they remained in the same place in the spacetime during that time.
Who cares how it works. I’m going by comic book logic since this is comic book movies.
None of this is remotely correctThere are no paradoxes because these are pocket universes that only exist in the Quantum Realm for the time needed to exist as long as the stones exist exactly where they are supposed to exist eventually correcting themselves. As long as the stone exist where they were, are and supposed to be, they will repair any paradoxes created instantly.
Old Man a Cap is not a paradox because he existed for 78 years in the Quantum Realm while only an atomic second passed, same as Ant Man existing for 5 hours in the Quantum Realm while 5 years passed.
Comic Book time travel here we come.
The altered timelines still exist.
What is the Deutsch proposition? It doesn’t exist unless they are trying to infer without inferring the many worlds theory. But in reality there is no such thing as The Deutsch Proposition.
Their time travel added new worlds to the multiverse
You have no business being this arrogant about your stance when it's wrong.This is hilarious. Joe Russo says himself that once you go back to the past, you create an alternate timeline. If you agree that Cap is going back from a point in the future, then it’s creating an alternate future, like Joe says himself. The way you can’t seem to grasp that is making me giggle.
If you read the argument you'd see that it was an escalation of him claiming that I was making up rules. I didn't. The back and forth got heated but I think we both handled well.
You can interpret it that way but I thought the writers were saying that Cap being with Peggy simply creates no alternate timelines at all, correct me if I'm wrongThe writers' explanation also creates the exact same number of new timelines as the Russos'
One, only the writers' explanation also makes the entire MCU post TFA that new timeline. Which is fine for the record but both explanations create the same number of new timelines
No, because if Steve going back to Peggy creates a new timeline, that means that the 2023 Steve in that timeline will again go back to be with Peggy in another timeline, and so on.
Or they all get killed by Thanos, or the Infinity War never happens etc... there's nothing that says that timeline plays out remotely identical to the one we saw.
His kids have got to be pretty old now then. And they would have had to be at the funeral.
But it has too. There's nothing to cause any kind of change to break the cycle. Not that it really matters.
Now this is wild speculation from my end, completely baseless. But your post got me thinking:The writers' explanation also creates the exact same number of new timelines as the Russos'
One, only the writers' explanation also makes the entire MCU post TFA that new timeline. Which is fine for the record but both explanations create the same number of new timelines
He lived a lifetimeAnd pointing out the flagrant inconsistencies of what Joe was saying about his theory - maybe on purpose - doesn't make me wrong. Like I've said, all I'm posting on Joe's theory is based on film and interviews. Cap cannot go to the future without the pad, the only way he could do that is by going back. And if he does, Joe's theory is that it creates an alternate timeline. I disagree with that notion, since the screenwriters explanation actually makes sense within the film, although less science-y.
If you need to explain time and time again what happened in the film, then maybe the ending wasn't as well executed as I thought of. There is a very easy solution to make the alternate timeline Peggy thing real: simply have Cap coming back as the old man in the time travel pad. That works.He lived a lifetime
Insert X science guy perfects the device allowing him to jump home 5 seconds into the main MCU timeline's future.
Or he stays shrunk and heads over to the bench
Insert other no prize
Your entire "I'm defeating the Russos" is hinged on a bench.... you've invented rules.
If he lives till the year 3000 in Peggyverse he's still going back to... heh... the future of the prime MCU.
Now if he traveled from the year 3000 to 2023 of the Peggyverse than yes he'd be creating a new timeline... because he'd be visiting his past... but he's not.
It's much less dramatically effectiveIf you need to explain time and time again what happened in the film, then maybe the ending wasn't as well executed as I thought of. There is a very easy solution to make the alternate timeline Peggy thing real: simply have Cap coming back as the old man in the time travel pad. That works.
All you've been doing is no prizing.Once he is by himself on the bench with no hint that he transported whatsoever, regardless of the metatext, the film is telling me that he was in the same timeline. If you have to make a no prize interviews to make the scenes work like the director intended... Yeah, no. Occam's razor and all that.
That actually works because if Bucky always intended to do it it's not a timeline split
The only thing that works is in the alternate timeline he asked the heroes there to travel back through the time machine in that universe, to the present coordinates of his gps.
And the film did establish the Timecop rule was bullshit.
The idea that returning stones erases alternate timelines is really problematic from a narrative POV because it means anyone who uses time travel can borrow things (or people) and not give them back- so long as they aren't borrowing infinity stones.For people who don’t like Alternate timelines here you go with a batshit insane theory that I thought about. Since Marvel Comics like to use pocket universes I will use them here.
I personally prefer the alternate timelines theory. Because there’s way too much Quantum physics involved and too many hints at a multiverse for it not to be.
This is only a thought experiment because it’s fun.
If we look at the Fine-Tuned Universe “The proposition that the conditions that allow life in the Universe can occur only when certain universal dimensionless physical constants lie within a very narrow range of values, so that if any of several fundamental constants were only slightly different, the Universe would be unlikely to be conducive to the establishment and development of matter, astronomical structures, elemental diversity, or life as it is understood.”
Applying this to the Marvel universe and how taking any stone can destabalize the Single Timeline and only putting it back would correct the timeline. We have to take the Fine-Tuned Universe theory and have the stones “6 singularities” be these “certain universal dimensionless physical constants within a narrow range of values”.
Now changing any of these values by the slightest amount can cause a completely different universe to exist where life doesn’t exist at all, gravity is completely different, etc.
My guess is the Mind Stone stores these default values of the Marvel Universe. While the other stones maintain these specific default values to their specific area. Time maintains the flow of time values, space maintains the expansion of space values, soul maintains the soul world values, reality maintains the basic physics of the universe, Power Stone I don’t know, maybe maintains the link between all stones) allows you to change these fine tuned values is the Reality Stone. However as witnessed in the movies, these stones have a limited range if not used in conjunction with all the stones.
In Thor 2 Dark World these “Fine-Tuned” values can be changed so the the wormholes that connect all 9 realms (planets that I guess are the far corners of SpaceTime), can be used to interlock the wormholes permanently allowing the changed values to spread across the universe to create permanent darkness. Male moth has to wait for the Wormholes to perfectly line-up as the Reality Stone by itself has a limited range, so the portals lining up would create a shortcut to the entire universe.
Now applying the Fine-Tuned universe to the 6 stones means each of the 6 stones have these default values from inception to allow the creation of the Marvel Universe as the way it is up to the point they are used to change the default values or the end of SpaceTime. So as long as the 6 stones remain in the universe they can maintain their default values all throughout time and space in that specific universe until they are used or removed.
Now let’s look at how Dr. Strange used the Time Stone to rewind a pocket of Hong Kong let’s say like 10 mins. Now that pocket of Hong Kong is 10 minutes behind the natural timeline of the universe but because the past is the present and the present is the past, that pocket of Hong Kong still flows in the present of the timeline. This Pocket Universe is the size of the few blocks of Hong Kong and those people will have experienced a 10 minute time skip.
The Time Stone was used to change the default values, however since all 6 stones still exist at that specific moment SpaceTime in the present, This pocket universe the size of a few blocks, now merged with the main SpaceTime to maintain the default flow of time.
So when the Avengers travel back in time and remove the stone from that point in time it is happening in the present, not in the past. However for this to occur it would have to happen in another point in Space in SpaceTime, not just time.
Now remember when Scott says the 5 years was 5 hours. This is the Dr strange syndrome, those people in Hong Kong experiencing a 10 min time skip, Scott experiencing a 5 year time skip. These time skips only happening in a small radius.
Hong Kong it is a few blocks, Scott is the size of the plank scale. (SpaceTime).
So for the Avengers to travel back in time the reason they have to go through the time portal is because the time portal has to shrink that point in timespace to smaller than the plank scale creating a pocket universe in the Quantum Realm. As long as the stones exist in that pocket universe where they are supposed to be that pocket universe will always only remain a pocket universe because all 6 stones are there to maintain default values.
So when Hawkeye first travels back in time for 5 seconds, in the main SpaceTime at that point in time there is a pocket universe that existed for 5 seconds because no stone was removed from that point in SpaceTime. That pocket universe is only as old as Hawkeye existed in it which was I think a few minutes.
However because none of the stones were removed from that specific point in spaceTime, the stones can erase that pocket universe from existing and creating a new multiverse universe.
Now when the Avengers travel back in time they are also creating these pocket universes. However they are removing the stones from them. So these pocket universes have the potential to become new multiverse universes. Because not all 6 stones remain at that specific point in SpaceTime to maintain the default values of the main Universe.
So really Cap does not need to return Mjolnir and he takes it with him cuz it’s his now to use in case he runs into trouble returning the stones to those pocket universe in SpaceTime.
So 1970 pocket universe is a few minute old pocket universe. Because the moment Tony and his father leave the storage are would be the point Cap returns the stone. However that pocket universe would exist in the Quantum realm, for however many days in the main SpaceTime it took to defeat Thanos, have the funeral, build the Time machine, and return to it. So returning the stone would erase that pocket universe completely once Cap leaves as the stones now exist all throughout SpaceTime to return to default values. Removing the need for a new multiverse universe to be created from this pocket universe.
So when Cap travels to the 1940’s to spend his life with Peggy, he exists in a pocket universe for that instance which is the smallest measured time known to us is the atomic second. However that pocket universe is, let’s say he froze in 1945, it is 2023. So that pocket universe which is 78 years of SpaceTime only existed for an atomic second in the main SpaceTime.
Now because that 1945 pocket universe was allowed to exist until the present of the Main SpaceTime, it would merge out of existence as long as during those 78 years in the pocket universe, none of the stones were removed from any point in SpaceTime, that contradicts the main SpaceTime continuum, Once the pocket universe reached the present, the stones would revert to their default values merging the pocket universe out of existence with the main SpaceTime. Hence bringing Old Man steve to the Main SpaceTime since that pocket Universe would have a time skip of an atomic second.
So in the end the Time machine is designed to create pocket universes and the gps is synced with it to travel between these pocket universes.
TLDR better to read whole thing too much nuance to summarize. But just think pocket universe that exist only for the time spent in them as old as the SpaceTime allows them to exist, before being erased as long as stones exist in SpaceTime continuum at that specific point that doesn’t contradict their positions therefore not needing to expand that pocket universe out of the quantum realm into a multiverse universe/branched timeline. Therefore reverting the pocket universe’s default values to that of the stones in the present of main spaceTime to correct it to default values.
Anyways so when AntMan shrinks to subatomic size he is creating more dense matter than a giant star collapsing onto itself to the point of creating a black hole, He is shrinking trillions of atoms to a size smaller than one atom and apparently shrinking forever. So how is he not creating a black hole? I wonder if pym particles can reverse a black hole.
If they don't bring back the stones, they're just dicks, because they're taking powerful weapons and let this universe defenseless against guys like Dormammu. But maybe in this universe, Strange will beat the zealots before they bring Dormammu, without the stone... We don't know.The idea that returning stones erases alternate timelines is really problematic from a narrative POV because it means anyone who uses time travel can borrow things (or people) and not give them back- so long as they aren't borrowing infinity stones.
If we accept that Cap didn't need to bring the hammer back, because returning the Aether erases the alternate timeline, then we accept that time-travel can be used to endlessly farm valuable objects and even people!
I agree with you that returning stones doesn't erase anything. But some people (and the screenwriters) believe that returning the stones eliminates the alternate timelines.If they don't bring back the stones, they're just dicks, because they're taking powerful weapons and let this universe defenseless against guys like Dormammu. But maybe in this universe, Strange will beat the zealots before they bring Dormammu, without the stone... We don't know.
And bringing a stone back isn't erasing anything. Hulk chats with the Ancient One - she gives him the stone - he disappears - Captain appears 1 sec after - gives the stone back... This universe lost the weapon during 1sec, no big deal. But his universe has now a Loki hiding with a stone.
But you're right, a bad guy using the Pym tech could go back, steals something or kidnap someone, and come back to the MCU to break havoc.
They even could go back and steal a stone too.
They should destroy the time machine.
Endgame did stick to its own rules. The rule is if you time travel to relive a moment you create a branch timeline that persists from that moment on. Otherwise, no branch is created.The only thing a time-travel movie has to do is stay true to it's rules, and Endgame basically didn't: Is it a "one timeline only" thing? You are Back to The Future. Travelling to the past creates multiple timelines each time? You are Dragon Ball Z. Does ot works like wibbly wobbly, timey wimey stuff? You are Doctor Who / Legends of Tomorrow. Just pick one!
It reminds me of all the Zelda's timeline nonsense discussion ("one fits all" vs. "chld and adult split") before Nintendo themselves went and established a third timeline to fit (retroactively) all the games in one narrative that wasn't meant to be at the beginning.
Even then it doesn't break anything. because all it means is that the MCU post 1940 whatever has been an altered timeline all along and TFA still works because it was before Cap jumped back.People when the screenwriters suggested that they intended for Cap to have lived with Peggy in the main timeline- which departs from the rule of the movie. Ultimately it doesn't matter what they intended because that's not what the Russo's shot, and thats not what Marvel is going to run with going forward.
If the MCU is an alternate timeline all along then the Cap living with Peggy would have to have come from another timeline to have caused the split before everything started, i.e. he wouldn't be our Cap.
This is a valid explanation for How Prime Peggy could have been married to a version of Cap (this is actually the theory I subscribe to), but it still runs counter to the screen writers' theory because they say there's only one remaining timeline due to stones being returned.
No the previous timeline Peggy simply never got married.
My point is our Cap cannot be the old man Cap, he has to have come from another timeline. 616 Cap cant go back and inject himself into the timeline so the old man is from a different timeline and not the one we've been following (which is lame)
Not really all it means is TFA cap and every other movie Cap are technically two different people but literally our Cap also did everything identical to TFA Cap from birth to ice.
Obviously he is Steve, so unless you're arguing some kind of essentialism he's the same guy with substantially the same experiences.
This meshes with my line of thought. As old Cap doesn’t return via the platform, but seems to be part of the main timeline anyway. This is how I imagine it playing out:
That's where I'm at now. They are totally playing us like some dame fiddles. This is intentional.lmao, they’re all taking the piss. At this point I almost believe that the directors and screenwriters planned to give contradicting answers to make people argue forever. Especially with the final scene with Cap being so ambiguous. It’s impossible that they didn’t talk about this among themselves before shooting a multibillion dollar cultural touchstone movie that concludes a decade-long saga led by a dude that fully understands the comic book concepts they’re dealing with.
You need an explanation from an expert in time travel.