Iron Fist will talk him to death about how he is "The immortal Iron Fist, protector of Kun Lun, and sworn enemy of the Hand."
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Avengers: Endgame |Spoiler OT2| Changing the past doesn't change the future
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Iron Fist will talk him to death about how he is "The immortal Iron Fist, protector of Kun Lun, and sworn enemy of the Hand."
No, you are correct. Please watch the video I've posted. The problem with Joe's theory is that Cap couldn't really travel from past to future. Only his "present" (either 2014, 2013, 2012, 1970, 1948) to further past. And everytime he does that, he creates an alternate timeline for just being there.
For old Cap to get on the bench via time travel, he would only be capable by traveling from a point in the future of whatever timeline he was to there. And that would create an alternate future. So, if Joe Russo theory is correct - it isn't - not only Cap went to an alternate timeline, but by coming back to 2023 and giving Sam the shield he was making another alternate branch in the timeline.
Again, that's why their theory is way more flawed and contrived than the screenwriters.
This is nonsense because he's not traveling from the same timeline
He could come from 7500 AD in his timeline and he'd still be arriving in the MCU timeline 5 seconds in the future.
Stop trying to defeat the movie because you like one theory more than an another.
Both work
Well yes the stones will correct the timeline at that point in spacetime continuum as long as their places in space time don't contradict the past.
Steve can live in an alternate timeline but those timelines can merge once the past timeline catches upto the present as long as the positions of the stones in the SpaceTime continuum don't contradict each other at any point during that time he spent in the past. He would have lived ~78 years in an atomic second. But the stones would recorrect the whole timeline to remove any paradoxes throughout spaceTime as long as they remained in the same place in the spacetime during that time.
But the fact is when Winter Soldier happened, her husband cannot be him. As that was the past not the present.
But her not having any picture of her husband maybe because the stones correcting the spacetime continuum to make it so she was never married and her Alzheimer's makes it so that she remembers being married and having kids but actually never did at that point because her memories were remembering the future rather than the past.
lmao, they're all taking the piss. At this point I almost believe that the directors and screenwriters planned to give contradicting answers to make people argue forever. Especially with the final scene with Cap being so ambiguous. It's impossible that they didn't talk about this among themselves before shooting a multibillion dollar cultural touchstone movie that concludes a decade-long saga led by a dude that fully understands the comic book concepts they're dealing with.
The writers' explanation also creates the exact same number of new timelines as the Russos'
One, only the writers' explanation also makes the entire MCU post TFA that new timeline. Which is fine for the record but both explanations create the same number of new timelines
There are no paradoxes because these are pocket universes that only exist in the Quantum Realm for the time needed to exist as long as the stones exist exactly where they are supposed to exist eventually correcting themselves. As long as the stone exist where they were, are and supposed to be, they will repair any paradoxes created instantly.
Old Man a Cap is not a paradox because he existed for 78 years in the Quantum Realm while only an atomic second passed, same as Ant Man existing for 5 hours in the Quantum Realm while 5 years passed.
Comic Book time travel here we come.
No that's not how any of this works
Returning the stones doesn't unfork the new timeline. It just keeps the new ones from being fucked. The new ones still exist.
The orange line TAO shows Banner is her new reality created when the Avengers of 2023 showed up for the Stones. That reality will always exist now, why she wants the stone back is if it never returns her reality will be on a path of destruction due to the stone not being there to balance things out against evil forces. By returning the stones those potential doomed futures are avoided
Who cares how it works. I'm going by comic book logic since this is comic book movies.
The funny thing is people are acting like this is some real life time travel shit but Tony created time travel bands doing mathematics that amount to nothing in the real world. The terms he was using have nothing to do with Quantum physics or time travel at all lol.
The Deutsch proposition doesn't even exist. Unless he was referring to David Deutsch's many worlds theory
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None of this is remotely correct
The altered timelines still exist.
Period.
What is the Deutsch proposition? It doesn't exist unless they are trying to infer without inferring the many worlds theory. But in reality there is no such thing as The Deutsch Proposition.
Time travel in these movies is going to be whatever the writers want it to be to serve the plot at hand. Just like the comic books
What?
There's only one timeline where everything plays out as it did.
Their time travel added new worlds to the multiverse
You have no business being this arrogant about your stance when it's wrong.
We don't even know Cap stayed in his new timeline until 2023... he could have come back to the prime MCU timeline just after Peggy died.
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The reality stone will create Old Man Steve Rogers on that bench the moment young Steve leaves the SpaceTime because the stones have to correct the timeline. And the stones will make it so he lived his life the way he did in that main spaceTime continuum but in an alternate place in SpaceTime. His life will exist in the Quantum Realm in the past of the present.
If AntMan can shrink forever that means you can create an infinite number of pocket universe within pocket universe as there will be an infinite number of Quantum Realms but the all will exist within the same SpaceTime continuum we just can see that universe.
But it is not many worlds theory because there would have to be another universe. But Steve is not in another universe he is in the same universe only experiencing time dilation at a different rate in the present in the Quantum Realm.
If AntMan can shrink forever that means you can create an infinite number of pocket universe within pocket universe as there will be an infinite number of Quantum Realms but the all will exist within the same SpaceTime continuum we just can see that universe.
But it is not many worlds theory because there would have to be another universe. But Steve is not in another universe he is in the same universe only experiencing time dilation at a different rate in the present in the Quantum Realm.
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If you read the argument you'd see that it was an escalation of him claiming that I was making up rules. I didn't. The back and forth got heated but I think we both handled well.
And pointing out the flagrant inconsistencies of what Joe was saying about his theory - maybe on purpose - doesn't make me wrong. Like I've said, all I'm posting on Joe's theory is based on film and interviews. Cap cannot go to the future without the pad, the only way he could do that is by going back. And if he does, Joe's theory is that it creates an alternate timeline. I disagree with that notion, since the screenwriters explanation actually makes sense within the film, although less science-y.
You can interpret it that way but I thought the writers were saying that Cap being with Peggy simply creates no alternate timelines at all, correct me if I'm wrong
No, because if Steve going back to Peggy creates a new timeline, that means that the 2023 Steve in that timeline will again go back to be with Peggy in another timeline, and so on.
What could have been...
lol Iron Fist's hands aren't even glowing. Accurate to 99% of the show.
Impossible.
Because he'd have traveled into his own past and altered stuff
It's a new timeline it's just one that forked so far in the past and off screen that it still allows TFA to connect to the rest of the films, which all exist in the new altered two Caps timeline.
Or they all get killed by Thanos, or the Infinity War never happens etc... there's nothing that says that timeline plays out remotely identical to the one we saw.
Wait.
His kids have got to be pretty old now then. And they would have had to be at the funeral.
edit: Could that be his own kid carrying the coffin behind him?
I like that the obituary in the newspaper says "Much of Peggy Carter's life remains classified, even after her passing."
His kids have got to be pretty old now then. And they would have had to be at the funeral.
edit: Could that be his own kid carrying the coffin behind him?
I like that the obituary in the newspaper says "Much of Peggy Carter's life remains classified, even after her passing."
But it has too. There's nothing to cause any kind of change to break the cycle. Not that it really matters.
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Now this is wild speculation from my end, completely baseless. But your post got me thinking:
What is special about 1945? Why the Red Skull got teletransported to Vormir while the Tesseract drown in the ocean? How much of a happy coincidence that Cap has all the infinity stones with him and two power hungry people free to pursue them that would probably cross his path?
I know these are supposed to be subplots that might or not ever be addressed, but there is something about MCU's 1945 interaction with the Tesseract that it's unlike anything else in the MCU up until now, and it's crazy how Cap, Red Skull and Loki (all related to the Tesseract somewhat) have this plot point dangling there.
Your idea at first sounded crazy, but pure wild speculation, there could be potentially something there.
He lived a lifetime
Insert X science guy perfects the device allowing him to jump home 5 seconds into the main MCU timeline's future.
Or he stays shrunk and heads over to the bench
Or
Insert other no prize
Your entire "I'm defeating the Russos" is hinged on a bench.... you've invented rules.
If he lives till the year 3000 in Peggyverse he's still going back to... heh... the future of the prime MCU.
Now if he traveled from the year 3000 to 2023 of the Peggyverse than yes he'd be creating a new timeline... because he'd be visiting his past... but he's not.
If you need to explain time and time again what happened in the film, then maybe the ending wasn't as well executed as I thought of. There is a very easy solution to make the alternate timeline Peggy thing real: simply have Cap coming back as the old man in the time travel pad. That works.
Once he is by himself on the bench with no hint that he transported whatsoever, regardless of the metatext, the film is telling me that he was in the same timeline. If you have to make a no prize interviews to make the scenes work like the director intended... Yeah, no. Occam's razor and all that.
The Russo Brothers are many things, but not dumb. There is a clear intention on that scene. The screenwriters didn't write that scene, and even if they did, they shot that. There is no hint whatsoever other than interviews claiming otherwise. Yes, it does contradicts what is said by Banner before, but not really what is said about the Ancient One. Even Joe recognizes that, how there are these two interpretations of the same thing. As soon as I find the interview I'm talking about I'll link it here.
I think somehow, we will still see all these things unfold eventually. For now, I'm sticking with what the film informs me, regardless of what Joe says.
It's much less dramatically effective
All you've been doing is no prizing.
Agreed. Both interpretations are valid and within the rules established by the movie. Both are possible based on those rules.
That actually works because if Bucky always intended to do it it's not a timeline split
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Actually nevermind it probably is because you can't have two Caps at the same time without a split
The only thing that works is in the alternate timeline he asked the heroes there to travel back through the time machine in that universe, to the present coordinates of his gps.
A continuity mistake no one here has noticed yet, Cap's shield isn't broken here.
AH HA!
The mystery of Old Man Cap and where he got his shield is solved!
:D
The idea that returning stones erases alternate timelines is really problematic from a narrative POV because it means anyone who uses time travel can borrow things (or people) and not give them back- so long as they aren't borrowing infinity stones.
the film tells us that our Hero's are adverse to dooming alternate realities via their actions. We then surmise that Cap brought Mjolnir back so that Alternate Thor could use it during his subsequent, universe saving adventures.
If we accept that Cap didn't need to bring the hammer back, because returning the Aether erases the alternate timeline, then we accept that time-travel can be used to endlessly farm valuable objects and even people!
Based on this theory, there's no reason that any character would need to stay dead. After Tony snaps, Just go travel back And grab him before he takes the stones from Thanos, and bring him to the present. Since you aren't removing timestones, this alternate universe is erased, and you get a free Tony.
I think they went with this persistent branch model for the specific purpose of limiting the time-travel abuse for the future of the MCU and avoiding having to explain time paradox.
this leaves us with is much simpler explanation.
attempt to relive a moment, and you create a Branch timeline because a timelines past can't be changed. This timeline will live on indefinitely, home to trillions of lives deserve minimal disruption of their continuum.
This very simple rule (supported by the film and is in fact the Russo's air-tight theory) explains everything perfectly. why did our heroes have to return the stones and Mjolnir? because all of these items were intrinsicly important to the defence of the Universe they were take from.
It also explains why returning the items doesn't create branches- because Cap is arriving at the newest moment in a timeline, not attempting to relive a moment.
It also explains how Cap can return to the bench in the main timeline- because he lived in the alternate timeline beyond the timestamp of the Main (Banner literally says this while he's panicking ) then he does a GPS jump, arriving at the newest moment in the main timeline - not attempting to relive a moment, thus not creating a branch.
Everyone is really thinking Too hard on this.
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If they don't bring back the stones, they're just dicks, because they're taking powerful weapons and let this universe defenseless against guys like Dormammu. But maybe in this universe, Strange will beat the zealots before they bring Dormammu, without the stone... We don't know.
And bringing a stone back isn't erasing anything. Hulk chats with the Ancient One - she gives him the stone - he disappears - Captain appears 1 sec after - gives the stone back... This universe lost the weapon during 1sec, no big deal. But his universe has now a Loki hiding with a stone.
But you're right, a bad guy using the Pym tech could go back, steals something or kidnap someone, and come back to the MCU to break havoc.
They even could go back and steal a stone too.
They should destroy the time machine.
I agree with you that returning stones doesn't erase anything. But some people (and the screenwriters) believe that returning the stones eliminates the alternate timelines.
This theory would allow anyone, even good guy, to use timetravel to farm items without consequence. The idea that these are branches temporary so long as no one takes a stone would there are no consequences to bringing other items/people to the present and keeping them.
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The only thing a time-travel movie has to do is stay true to it's rules, and Endgame basically didn't: Is it a "one timeline only" thing? You are Back to The Future. Travelling to the past creates multiple timelines each time? You are Dragon Ball Z. Does ot works like wibbly wobbly, timey wimey stuff? You are Doctor Who / Legends of Tomorrow. Just pick one!
It reminds me of all the Zelda's timeline nonsense discussion ("one fits all" vs. "chld and adult split") before Nintendo themselves went and established a third timeline to fit (retroactively) all the games in one narrative that wasn't meant to be at the beginning.
It reminds me of all the Zelda's timeline nonsense discussion ("one fits all" vs. "chld and adult split") before Nintendo themselves went and established a third timeline to fit (retroactively) all the games in one narrative that wasn't meant to be at the beginning.
Endgame did stick to its own rules. The rule is if you time travel to relive a moment you create a branch timeline that persists from that moment on. Otherwise, no branch is created.
This works for every single instance of timetravel in this movie. Including Caps arrival as an old man on the bench.
People when the screenwriters suggested that they intended for Cap to have lived with Peggy in the main timeline- which departs from the rule of the movie. Ultimately it doesn't matter what they intended because that's not what the Russo's shot, and thats not what Marvel is going to run with going forward.
Even then it doesn't break anything. because all it means is that the MCU post 1940 whatever has been an altered timeline all along and TFA still works because it was before Cap jumped back.
If the MCU is an alternate timeline all along then the Cap living with Peggy would have to have come from another timeline to have caused the split before everything started, i.e. he wouldn't be our Cap.
This is a valid explanation for How Prime Peggy could have been married to a version of Cap (this is actually the theory I subscribe to), but it still runs counter to the screen writers' theory because they say there's only one remaining timeline due to stones being returned.
They simply don't agree that these alternate branches are persistent, but we already know enough about the future of the MCU to know Marvel has a different take - and thats the take Endgame shipped with.
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Interestingly, in another new interview, the Russos said Loki escaping the Avengers' custody with the Tesseract is what creates a new branched reality there (and not the mere act of Cap and co. time traveling into 2012, as a few here keep suggesting). They also hint that not only will this alternate Loki running around be a part of the Disney+ series, but that part of Cap's mission through time will be hunting down Loki and bringing him back to where he belongs in the timeline, as a way of clipping that branch.
...which, I don't know if I like. I like that the last image we have of Steve Rogers' Captain America is the old man we see on the bench, passing the shield to Sam. Not Steve playing time cop.
...which, I don't know if I like. I like that the last image we have of Steve Rogers' Captain America is the old man we see on the bench, passing the shield to Sam. Not Steve playing time cop.
No the previous timeline Peggy simply never got married.
Our Cap is the guy who got Frozen in TFA, unthawed in 200whatever , saved the world, then went back.
The Cap we never meet is the one that existed in the first timeline where Peggy never got married
My point is our Cap cannot be the old man Cap, he has to have come from another timeline. 616 Cap cant go back and inject himself into the timeline so the old man is from a different timeline and not the one we've been following (which is lame)
Everyone talking about timelines but no one cares pym particles can warp you ANYWHERE? From avengers HQ to NY City, to Jersey, to light years away at Asgard and Vormir? In an instant?
Not really all it means is TFA cap and every other movie Cap are technically two different people but literally our Cap also did everything identical to TFA Cap from birth to ice.
Obviously he is Steve, so unless you're arguing some kind of essentialism he's the same guy with substantially the same experiences.
This meshes with my line of thought. As old Cap doesn't return via the platform, but seems to be part of the main timeline anyway. This is how I imagine it playing out:
-Traveling back in time means you were always part of the main timeline, unless you drastically alter course. 2012 Loki escaping, Thanos & Friends leaving 2014 entirely, these create new branches.
-Cap is able to navigate these new branches in order to return the stones.
-Goes back further before any possible branching to be with Peggy, doesn't do anything to interfere with established events and remains in the main timeline. So yes, he was always Peggy's husband.
The main issue being why doesn't Cap interfere with things like Bucky, Hydra within SHIELD etc.. Well, he would for sure create a new branch, which he may ultimately doom by stepping out of line. They have failures, but end up saving countless lives with the way things play out, the stakes are too high to risk. He wanted a life and got one, knowing things will be all right.
That's where I'm at now. They are totally playing us like some dame fiddles. This is intentional.
They left it open for interpretation. In the end, either our MCU is the main timeline or an alternate "semi-closed loop" timeline.