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Trup1aya

Literally a train safety expert
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,308
I know it's just comic book logic, but it was kind of weird to me that stones-less Thanos gave Thor and Cap so much trouble when even with all the stones Stormbreaker wrecked him in the previous movie.

In IW, Stormbreaker was specifically crafted to overcome the power of the gauntlet, and Thor caught Thanos by surprise when he chucked it at him.

In Endgame, Stormbreaker still would have killed Thanos, but w/o the element of surprise, no one could land a hit on Thanos w/ it.
 
Oct 28, 2017
5,210
I know it's just comic book logic, but it was kind of weird to me that stones-less Thanos gave Thor and Cap so much trouble when even with all the stones Stormbreaker wrecked him in the previous movie.
Yeah it seemed weird that he could just tank the hits in Endgame.


He beats the fuck out of hulk in the first movie without the stones and barely breaks a sweat

He has the Power stone already at the start of IW.
 

lunarworks

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,083
Toronto
Ok. So. Thanos comes from the past to the present and gets killed before he can return to the past and do the snap. Nothing changes, snap still happened.

Cap goes back to the past and marries Peggy Carter, and that change persists into the present.

I'm confused.
 

Halbrand

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,612
Ok. So. Thanos comes from the past to the present and gets killed before he can return to the past and do the snap. Nothing changes, snap still happened.

Cap goes back to the past and marries Peggy Carter, and that change persists into the present.

I'm confused.
The power stones was removed before Thanos went back, according to the writers removing the stones causes branching timelines.
 

UnderSiege

Member
Mar 5, 2019
2,693
Old Man Steve Rogers is around and somehow managed to avoid being known all along.
So, if he actually went back in time in the MCU timeline and managed to avoid being known, nothing changed. He was always there.
Alternatively, if he lived his life with Peggy in a different timeline, nothing changed either.
In short, whatever your preferred theory of timetravel is, the movie says you can't change the past, and it is consistent in that.
 
OP
OP
Oct 25, 2017
12,018
Ok. So. Thanos comes from the past to the present and gets killed before he can return to the past and do the snap. Nothing changes, snap still happened.

Cap goes back to the past and marries Peggy Carter, and that change persists into the present.

I'm confused.
jwM1nyZ.gif
 

lunarworks

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,083
Toronto
The power stones was removed before Thanos went back, according to the writers removing the stones causes branching timelines.
I guess that makes sense, in a dumb comic book way.

I loved the movie, but at the same time I fucking hate time travel stories.

Also, half the population of the universe is five years older than the other half that came back to life I guess? I wonder how that will work for Peter Parker and his friends. Not to mention all the civilian population.
 

UnderSiege

Member
Mar 5, 2019
2,693
The power stones was removed before Thanos went back, according to the writers removing the stones causes branching timelines.
I guess that makes sense, in a dumb comic book way.
This has nothing to do with it. Changing the past can't and doesn't change the present. So, killing a younger Thanos doesn't change anything, regardless of what happens to the power stone. I mean, it is explicitly told in the scene where Rhodey proposes to kill baby Thanos...
 

UnderSiege

Member
Mar 5, 2019
2,693
Tell that to the writers. According to them, the past can be changed and new timelines are made specifically when infinity stones are removed. That's not my interpretation.
Sure, but this has nothing to do with this specific question. Rhodey wants to go kill baby Thanos. It is explained that that is useless, because it will change nothing in the present. So, regardless of what happens to the stones, 2014 Thanos dying will never have an effect on 2018 Thanos having already snapped his fingers.
 

Halbrand

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,612
Sure, but this has nothing to do with this specific question. Rhodey wants to go kill baby Thanos. It is explained that that is useless, because it will change nothing in the present. So, regardless of what happens to the stones, 2014 Thanos dying will never have an effect on 2018 Thanos having already snapped his fingers.
But I'd think that the writers wrote it thinking that 2014 Thanos would be a different Thanos because an infinity stone had just been removed.

Captain America does change the past, according to the writers.
 

UnderSiege

Member
Mar 5, 2019
2,693
Captain America does change the past, according to the writers.
No, he doesn't. According to the writers there was always a second Cap in the MCU timeline. So, he doesn't really change the past either. It always happened this way. Anyway, that's already been discussed to death in this thread. I prefer the multiple timelines theory of the Russos.. but in either case the rule is that the past can't be changed. Whatever the theory, Back to the Future is bullshit in the MCU.
 

ZattMurdock

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
10,333
Earth 616
No, he doesn't. According to the writers there was always a second Cap in the MCU timeline. So, he doesn't really change the past either. It always happened this way. Anyway, that's already been discussed to death in this thread. I prefer the multiple timelines theory of the Russos.. but in either case the rule is that the past can't be changed. Whatever the theory, Back to the Future is bullshit in the MCU.
I prefer the screenwriters theory, but I do agree with the bolded.
 

Serpens007

Well, Tosca isn't for everyone
Moderator
Oct 31, 2017
8,119
Chile
*time travel talk begins again*

WHAT DID YOU DO????



Anyway, watched it again today, man, I don't get how a 3 hour long movie is so easy to watch. I never thought it would be this rewatchable. I ended up liking it better than Infinity War
 

ZattMurdock

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
10,333
Earth 616
The Avengers: Endgame actuals are in on BOM and they came $562.505 below in domestic numbers, $1.482.612 in domestic numbers.

Total Lifetime Grosses:

Domestic: $771,368,375 29.5%+

Foreign: $1,845,482,612 70.5%



Daily countdown:

The Avengers: Endgame box office cume actuals up until Sunday (24th day) is at $2,616,850,987.

This means that it needs more $171.114.100 to top Avatar.

Source: https://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?page=main&id=marvel2019.htm
 

MisterHero

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,934
OT title is correct

You can't change the past because time travel is always meant to happen

We've had people travel to our past and present already. You just won't believe.
 

Serpens007

Well, Tosca isn't for everyone
Moderator
Oct 31, 2017
8,119
Chile
OT title is correct

You can't change the past because time travel is always meant to happen

We've had people travel to our past and present already. You just won't believe.

It's not. I know that some folks say that time loops and alternate timelines can happen at the same time, but the point of alternate timelines is that things that didn't happened, now happened there.

Loki, 2014's Thanos , etc.
 

Halbrand

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,612
I
The Avengers: Endgame actuals are in on BOM and they came $562.505 below in domestic numbers, $1.482.612 in domestic numbers.

Total Lifetime Grosses:

Domestic: $771,368,375 29.5%+

Foreign: $1,845,482,612 70.5%



Daily countdown:

The Avengers: Endgame box office cume actuals up until Sunday (24th day) is at $2,616,850,987.

This means that it needs more $171.114.100 to top Avatar.

Source: https://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?page=main&id=marvel2019.htm
I'm pretty sure this doesn't include the foreign weekend yet.
 

Nateo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,513
I have a few questions.

-Why did Thor not use his seemingly OP God of Thunder mode from Ragnarock
-Wanda strongest Avenger?
-Since Loki has the tessaract clearly setting up the D+ Series does that mean branching timelines are in affect since the stone is away from its original place?
-Ive been reading that Carol was syphoning the power stone while holding onto the gauntlet so Thanos ripped the powerstone out and wallaped her. Is this true? I guess it makes sense being able to withstand a full headbut when in a previous scene she was just brushed away.
- Anyone else think Black WIdow got done dirty, no real funeral at all and basically forgotten once Tony died.
 

Lotus

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
105,559
-Why did Thor not use his seemingly OP God of Thunder mode from Ragnarock

He's using Stormbreaker (and Mjolnir at times), I assumed Thor was fighting to the best of his abilities, his weight gain aside.

Wanda strongest Avenger?

That's Carol, Wanda's a glass cannon

-Since Loki has the tessaract clearly setting up the D+ Series does that mean branching timelines are in affect since the stone is away from its original place?

Ya

-Ive been reading that Carol was syphoning the power stone while holding onto the gauntlet so Thanos ripped the powerstone out and wallaped her. Is this true? I guess it makes sense being able to withstand a full headbut when in a previous scene she was just brushed away.

Not true, people just overthinking it, Carol was already glowing to begin with

- Anyone else think Black WIdow got done dirty, no real funeral at all and basically forgotten once Tony died.

She got done dirty in terms of not getting to share a funeral with Tony, but I wouldn't say she was forgotten. They directly mention her during the funeral, hoping she knows that they succeeded in bringing everyone back.
 

SuperMario

Member
Oct 28, 2017
409
He doesn't use the Power Stone during the Hulk fight. The stones glow when they're in use and the Power Stone doesn't glow at all in the fight.

People need to stop thinking about the stones as a passive ability and start realizing that they're power ups that manifest when Thanos closes his fist.

The Power Stone gives Thanos the ability to fire those purple rays of pure power and when activated, endure physical damage and deal a massive amount of it (see his headbutt to Captain Marvel vs his Power Stone punch).
 

Dan Thunder

Member
Nov 2, 2017
13,990
Don't know if it's already been mentioned but I genuinely thought that old man Steve was a different actor, just read up now that it was actually Chris Evans.

I'd originally assumed it was going to be him playing the character but it actually looked too good, whereas at least you could see that old Peggy was Hayley Atwell under makeup/CGI.
 

Trup1aya

Literally a train safety expert
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,308
Ok. So. Thanos comes from the past to the present and gets killed before he can return to the past and do the snap. Nothing changes, snap still happened.

Cap goes back to the past and marries Peggy Carter, and that change persists into the present.

I'm confused.

There's two schools of thought on this.

1. When Cap traveled back in time to live with Peggy, he changed an alternate timeline, not the main one. He lived a full life in this alternate timeline, then later travels back to three main timeline to drop off the Shield.

Or

2. Peggy was always Married to Cap from the future. When he travels back in time to live with Peggy, he is simply living out his predetermined time paradox.

The Directors say the first is true. The Writers say they intended for the second option to be true.

Based on the everything shown and said in the movie (and what we know about future MCU content), I believe the Director's take is canon. But there are a plenty of people who argue that option 2 makes the most sense.
 
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Nateo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,513
There's two schools of thought on this.

1. When Cap traveled back in time to live with Peggy, he changed an alternate timeline, not the main one. He lived a full life in this alternate timeline, then later travels back to three main timeline to drop off the Shield.

Or

2. Peggy was always Married to Cap from the future. When he travels back in time to live with Peggy, he is simply living out his predetermined time paradox.

The Directors say the first is true. The Writers say they intended for the second option to be true.

Based on the everything shown and said in the movie (and what we know about future MCU content), I believe the Director's take is canon. But there are a plenty of people here who argue that option 2 makes the most sense.
There is still a stone that hasn't been returned to its rightful place so branching timelines exist so its number 1. Number 2 would have been better tho.
 

Deleted member 7051

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,254
There's two schools of thought on this.

1. When Cap traveled back in time to live with Peggy, he changed an alternate timeline, not the main one. He lived a full life in this alternate timeline, then later travels back to three main timeline to drop off the Shield.

Or

2. Peggy was always Married to Cap from the future. When he travels back in time to live with Peggy, he is simply living out his predetermined time paradox.

The Directors say the first is true. The Writers say they intended for the second option to be true.

Based on the everything shown and said in the movie (and what we know about future MCU content), I believe the Director's take is canon. But there are a plenty of people here who argue that option 2 makes the most sense.

The second one makes the most sense, because we're talking about time travel here - and diverging timelines aren't really the same as creating new universes with every possibility. As Cap said, he went back to "clip the branches" so there wouldn't be any alternate futures. I know the MCU is planning to tap into multiversal storylines, but I don't think Endgame was about that.

Have to admit, though, the first one is more interesting. It implies there's a timeline where Cap was able to prep Earth against basically everything - imagine Thanos attacking New York in 2012 but instead of it being the Avengers we know fighting the army off, it's them plus the Ancient One, Hank Pym, the Asgardians, Captain Marvel... You name it.

Then he'd be like "yo Carol, this Thanos guy is trying to collect the Infinity Gems so he can wipe out half the universe" and she'd be like "yo Steve gimme five and I'll make him look like Barney".
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,691
The second one makes the most sense, because we're talking about time travel here - and diverging timelines aren't really the same as creating new universes with every possibility. As Cap said, he went back to "clip the branches" so there wouldn't be any alternate futures. I know the MCU is planning to tap into multiversal storylines, but I don't think Endgame was about that.

Have to admit, though, the first one is more interesting. It implies there's a timeline where Cap was able to prep Earth against basically everything - imagine Thanos attacking New York in 2012 but instead of it being the Avengers we know fighting the army off, it's them plus the Ancient One, Hank Pym, the Asgardians, Captain Marvel... You name it.

Then he'd be like "yo Carol, this Thanos guy is trying to collect the Infinity Gems so he can wipe out half the universe" and she'd be like "yo Steve gimme five and I'll make him look like Barney".
I prefer the first because Cap being in our timeline raises too many questions of the shit he'd allow to go down about things he knew in advanced. IMO, it's better that he just lived out his life in that alternative timeline, still being captain america, but with Peggy, until he decided to return to his own, having his life fulfilled. The only issue is that it's not certain how he returned in a different spot, but I'm willing to assume there was just another time machine he went to or something.

Either way, the thing that I don't understand is why this is such a point of contention. You have two perfectly okay options that may raise some questions, but can easily be worked around with a little imagination, but people are hard stuck on demanding to figure out the intricacies of time travel that isn't really relevant to anything anymore. Either he stayed in an alternative timeline or he merged with ours. Pick one, it doesn't matter which.
 

Trup1aya

Literally a train safety expert
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,308
The second one makes the most sense, because we're talking about time travel here - and diverging timelines aren't really the same as creating new universes with every possibility. As Cap said, he went back to "clip the branches" so there wouldn't be any alternate futures. I know the MCU is planning to tap into multiversal storylines, but I don't think Endgame was about that.

Have to admit, though, the first one is more interesting. It implies there's a timeline where Cap was able to prep Earth against basically everything - imagine Thanos attacking New York in 2012 but instead of it being the Avengers we know fighting the army off, it's them plus the Ancient One, Hank Pym, the Asgardians, Captain Marvel... You name it.

Then he'd be like "yo Carol, this Thanos guy is trying to collect the Infinity Gems so he can wipe out half the universe" and she'd be like "yo Steve gimme five and I'll make him look like Barney".

I think option 2 makes no sense at all given what was actually shown and said in the film. I think "clip the branches" is a criminally misunderstood line - rewatching the Banner + Ancient One conversation or reading the transcription should bring some clarity.

I'd like to not descend this thread into chaos though, so I'll leave it at that.
 
OP
OP
Oct 25, 2017
12,018
Cap living a quiet normal life in any timeline still means he allowed bad shit to go down without involving himself, so I'm not sure why that's even a sticking point for anybody. It comes down to either you accept that he earned the right to that selfishness or you don't.
 

Trup1aya

Literally a train safety expert
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,308
Cap living a quiet normal life in any timeline still means he allowed bad shit to go down without involving himself, so I'm not sure why that's even a sticking point for anybody. It comes down to either you accept that he earned the right to that selfishness or you don't.

If he lived in an alternate timeline, there's no reason to assume he allowed bad shit to go down. He could have been actively helping change that timeline course away from the atrocities he knew about - from the background

The only real question, imo, is whether or not he left alternate Cap on ice...
 
Last edited:

kurahador

Member
Oct 28, 2017
17,501
If he lived in an alternate timeline, there's no reason to assume he allowed bad shit to go down. He could have been actively helping change that timeline course away from the atrocities he knew about.
If he live in an alternate timeline, that would means he'd save that version of Cap from the ice earlier. And if he did save him, what makes that Peggy choose him instead of the trapped-now-saved Cap?

Either way, there's always a sticking point of him being selfish in both timeline that goes against his character.
 

Aadiboy

Member
Nov 4, 2017
3,636
I think it's more important that Cap keeps the timeline clean than try to alter it to make it "better". Otherwise he might change the future of the branch he's in for the worse, like when Homer killed a dinosaur and Flanders became ruler of the world.
 

NSA

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
3,892
Yeah, and the butterfly effect.. if he makes changes when he first gets back, whose to say the future would even follow a similar path? If he eliminated Hydra completely after WWII, then.. the whole future is different (Maybe better? Maybe not?).

A good What If tale if there ever was one.
 

LL_Decitrig

User-Requested Ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,334
Sunderland
I think it's more important that Cap keeps the timeline clean than try to alter it to make it "better". Otherwise he might change the future of the branch he's in for the worse, like when Homer killed a dinosaur and Flanders became ruler of the world.

I suspect that's what the writers are thinking about. In QM terms the Many Worlds interpretation means that a new timeline branches off every time an electron sneezes, but the consequences of most of such changes are statistically negligible. The important takeaway here is that there is no privileged timeline. The timeline from which the story is told could be one that branches off after Steve visits Peggy and they dance. Since Steve kept quiet, there is nothing inconsistent about it.

The butterfly effect is just a shorthand for saying that chaotic systems may reach unpredictable states from small perturbations. It doesn't say such small changes invariably cause massive changes in outcome.
 
Mar 30, 2019
9,058
Cap wouldn't do any preventative measures as he doesn't see the future as written in stone.

"Every time someone tried to end a war before it starts, innocent people die"

This tells me that Cap would have lived his life with Peggy and responding to threats reactionarily. He would be more instrumental in making SHIELD along with Peggy as well. The only character growth that Cap had, that mattered, was not being self sacrificial and listening to his heart. I think he has earned his rest.

As for the time travel, it's really like going to a version of your past that MIGHT play out like ours. Butterfly effects are limited to that reality. My take is that another reality also beat Thanos and sent their Cap to our reality. Their timeline is obviously further along than ours is as a result. Perhaps that is the timeline that Strange "foresaw". There are implications to freedom of choice here. I am curious how Strange and Cap would differ on this.

The aberrant scenes like Loki escaping, unconscious Quill, etc didn't happen in our timeline as evidenced by the MCU. But you can't claim there wasn't a second Hulk talking to our Ancient One. Those are different locations. We can then speculate of multi versions of characters, like Cap, in the background. I think it works pretty well, despite how many ways it could have went wrong.
 

ZattMurdock

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
10,333
Earth 616
DAT Canada holiday effect made for better than expected drops for The Avengers: Endgame this Monday. The actuals for the domestic numbers are in and due to Canuck Holiday effect the drop from last Monday was only -32.7%, grossing $3,162,240. This is interesting to point out because last year Infinity War 25th day also had the same holiday, with a steeper drop of -41.5% for a $2.7m Monday.

Today also marks the first day the end of the second weekend that The Avengers: Endgame topped Star Wars: The Force Awakens: on its 25th day of that film, it fell -61.2% for a $3.108m Monday.


Total Lifetime Grosses:

Domestic: $774,530,615 29.6
Foreign: $1,844,000,000 70.4% (Not updated)


Daily countdown:

The Avengers: Endgame box office cume is estimated at $2,620,013,227.

This means that it needs estimated $167.951.860 to top Avatar.

Source: https://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?page=daily&id=marvel2019.htm
 
Last edited:

flyingman

Banned
Apr 16, 2019
1,678
DAT Canada holiday effect made for better than expected drops for The Avengers: Endgame this Monday. The actuals for the domestic numbers are in and due to Canuck Holiday effect the drop from last Monday was only -32.7%, grossing $3,162,240. This is interesting to point out because last year Infinity War 25th day also had the same holiday, with a steeper drop of -41.5% for a $2.7m Monday.

Today also marks the first day the end of the second weekend that The Avengers: Endgame topped Star Wars: The Force Awakens: on its 25th day of that film, it fell -61.2% for a $3.108m Monday.


Total Lifetime Grosses:

Domestic: $774,530,615 29.6
Foreign: $1,844,000,000 70.4% (Not updated)


Daily countdown:

The Avengers: Endgame box office cume is estimated at $2,620,013,227.

This means that it needs estimated 167.951.860 to top Avatar.

Source: https://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?page=daily&id=marvel2019.htm


I mean i know disney owns both now but I think Feige must do marketing campaign to #beatavatar kind of thing or #befirstmovie to people rewatch on June and give money to theaters
 

Blank

Member
Oct 27, 2017
441
Enjoyed the movie a lot, thought it was a great send off and excited to see where they go from here. Had a couple of questions though:

1- Was there a reason Steve didn't want to get into his time with Peggy when Falcon asked about the girl? Or am I just reading too much into that scene?

2- I may be remembering incorrectly, but aren't all the stones too powerful for humans to even hold? I thought that was the case in the first Guardian's movie. Maybe that's just a power stone thing?


Interested in seeing how much they go into the alt. time lines and such in future movies. Seems like a good setup for Kang to show up.
 

ZattMurdock

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
10,333
Earth 616
Enjoyed the movie a lot, thought it was a great send off and excited to see where they go from here. Had a couple of questions though:

1- Was there a reason Steve didn't want to get into his time with Peggy when Falcon asked about the girl? Or am I just reading too much into that scene?

2- I may be remembering incorrectly, but aren't all the stones too powerful for humans to even hold? I thought that was the case in the first Guardian's movie. Maybe that's just a power stone thing?


Interested in seeing how much they go into the alt. time lines and such in future movies. Seems like a good setup for Kang to show up.
Cap not talking about his private life is a thing. Watch The Winter Soldier again and I think you'd catch that.
 

LL_Decitrig

User-Requested Ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,334
Sunderland
1- Was there a reason Steve didn't want to get into his time with Peggy when Falcon asked about the girl? Or am I just reading too much into that scene?

There's a rule in fiction that goes "show not tell." Steve is coy in his response to Sam, which sets up tension, which is relieved later when you see Steve in the 1940s after the war dancing with Peggy in her house. Steve has his memories which are private. We're omniscient so we get the answer.