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Avengers: Endgame |Spoiler OT2| I love you three thousand

Finally got to see this movie.

Not gonna lie, I mainly went to see it, because I wanted to watch the new Spider-Man trailer, and I heard it contained massive spoilers

I really like that Captain Marvel basically goes toe-to-toe with SIX STONE Thanos, and only gets knocked away because of a power stone sucker punch. Whoever is the next big bad definitely needs to scale up, because her introduction to the battlefield single-handedly tipped the scales, lol.
Truth be told, she's way stronger than Thanos but I don't know how she could have reasonably beat him if he could use the Infinity Gems. As we learned from Infinity War, stopping him from closing his fist prevents him from using the Infinity Gems at all and she was totally going to break his hand to stop him doing so.
 
Aug 18, 2018
324
Finally got to see this movie.

Not gonna lie, I mainly went to see it, because I wanted to watch the new Spider-Man trailer, and I heard it contained massive spoilers

I really like that Captain Marvel basically goes toe-to-toe with SIX STONE Thanos, and only gets knocked away because of a power stone sucker punch. Whoever is the next big bad definitely needs to scale up, because her introduction to the battlefield single-handedly tipped the scales, lol.
Honestly, I's another reason why I really want Galactus to be the next Big Bad. Instead of trying to one-up the stakes, you introduce a villain with vastly greater power than Thanos, but with a much more specific goal.
 
Oct 25, 2017
401
Everyone's explanation works


Russos' works

The Writers' work.

Neither are incompatible
This is just... what? Yes they are completely incompatible. You can either change the past or not. AND NO, A TIME LOOP IS NOT A GOTCHA, IT'S STILL CHANGING YOUR PAST.

Bwah. There were physicists who've explained it, there's multiple separate instances of explicit rules (no changing past) from straight up exposition to outright mockery, then there have been tons of explanations in the threads, and yet still there's this confusion going around.

Really, it's simple. In general there's two modes of time travel. Paradox style, and multiverse style. Paradox style is one reality in which you can alter the timeline, create paradoxes and time loops, multiverse style is every time you go in to "your past" it must be in another universe, i.e. you can't actually go into your own past. Not with the time travel devised by Stark & Co.

Endgame says it's multiverse style multiple times, has a weird and a tad confusing bit of dialogue with TAO which still conforms to multiverse style yet also alludes to timeline branches which doesn't make sense, and it has Cap coming back in a weird way, that seems to break the rules that they set up themselves.

So there are incongruities in the movie regarding Pym particle time travel then, seeing as how the screenwriters did intend on this to be the reading, yet the Russo's say the opposite.
 
Oct 25, 2017
34,479
Endgame says it's multiverse style multiple times, has a weird and a tad confusing bit of dialogue with TAO which still conforms to multiverse style yet also alludes to timeline branches which doesn't make sense, and it has Cap coming back in a weird way, that seems to break the rules that they set up themselves.
The orange line TAO shows Banner is her new timeline caused by Banner and Co arriving... the black branch she shows is her giving up the time zone to Banner and never getting it back.

Clip the branches means return the stones to prevent the alternate timelines they created from going dark because they lack the stones to combat evil forces and what not.


What's a split timeline to you?
There existed post TFA a timeline where Cap and Peggy never got together... that's the original MCU as seen in TFA the only movie set before Cap returns to Peggy.

Everything after TFA takes place fully in a split timeline caused by Cap going back to be with Peggy. That's the alternate timeline we see from there on out... TFA is also part of it because it happened identical because it's pre split.

That's how it's not incompatible
 
With that said, hear me out, I think I just broke the Russo Brothers time travel theory and proved that Markus & McFeely theory is the only one that works within the rules set in Endgame:

If the Russo Bros. theory is correct and Steve WASN'T living his life with Peggy in his own timeline, the moment he would supposedly "go back from the future" to his own timeline in the past - the only way he could travel back and not show up in the platform was if he was traveling back from a future point - and deliver a shield that wasn't even on our own timeline, he was ALSO making a branch on our MCU timeline.

So what I’m saying is simple, really: there are only two possible explanations for Cap NOT to showing up at the platform and Sam and Bucky seeing him on that bench instead:

a) Cap went back from a point in the future, which means that the moment he does this, let alone Steve gives a new shield to Sam, he creates an alternate timeline, according with the Russos Bros. own rules;

b) He was in the MCU timeline all along. That explanation works even if he does goes back, because it means that simply going back in the timeline doesn't create an alternative timeline.

So which one is it? Are Markus and McFeely correct or the Russo Bros. when it comes to Cap going back to Peggy?

My theory - that aligns with Markus’ and McFeely’s explanation, is quite simple:

You can’t kill baby Thanos because what happended in the past, can’t be altered. But that doesn’t mean that Cap wasn’t supposed to go back to the Peggy of his timeline all along, hence, time paradox.

Back to the Future rules DO NOT apply here. Steve and Peggy are a very specific case, it's the single time paradox that happens in the film. Everything else indeed are branched realities. The only way to DOOM it is without the infinity stones, but the paradox is that Steve always was supposed to go back. So it isn't like killing baby Thanos, because that wasn't supposed to happen. Steve going back and staying on his own timeline means that that was supposed to happen all along. Hence, time paradox, not really Back to the Future rules. Steve's "future" after Endgame was always in the past.

There are 14 million futures in IW, and they only win in one. What happens if they don't win? The end of the universe, only to get replaced by a new one, Thanos says so. So if Tony doesn't sacrifice himself, the time loop never happens, because the universe ceases to exist. But Iron Man does win, and Cap completes the time loop going back to 1948 and living in secret with the Peggy of his own timeline.

So the screenwriters theory theory is actually accurate with the film, while Russos explanation makes it impossible for Cap’s mission to return the stones to ever be accomplished, since by simply traveling back in time - according with the Russo Bros. explanation - an alternate timeline is created.

It isn’t changing the past because Cap going back to Peggy was always how that would go down. Cap’s not altering the past, he is living his present, which is in the past just after Agent Carter’s show and the fallout with Souza, like the screenwriters explicitly explained.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,079
Ontario
I thought the timeline stuff wasn't too confusing. When you go back in time, when you return, you return to the same timeline where you started (i.e. you didn't go back to the past). Your time travel shinanigans did not affect the original timeline. The timeline where you showed up in the past is completely separate.

Cap showing up in the end is confusing people. Based on the rules of the movie, he must've come back to the main MCU timeline by some technology. Anyone saying "no way Cap didn't save Bucky, stop hydra, etc" in the 70s not getting this. He very well could have done that. Just not in the main MCU timeline.
 
Oct 31, 2017
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Oct 25, 2017
34,479
a) Cap went back from a point in the future, which means that the moment he does this, let alone Steve gives a new shield to Sam, he creates an alternate timeline, according with the Russos Bros. own rules;
No because he had the coordinates.

And he traveled 5 seconds into the MCU future thus no change.

Because by your logic Thanos coming to 2023 split the timeline :P
 
No because he had the coordinates.

And he traveled 5 seconds into the MCU future thus no change.

Because by your logic Thanos coming to 2023 split the timeline :P
By the Russos logic every time travel instance does that. I disagree with that notion. Only meaningful events would create a branch, Cap staying with Peggy of his own timeline wouldn’t provoke that.
 
Apr 27, 2018
2,004
I really can't wrap my head around those that want Cap to be living in secret in the main timeline. Retiring at 35 and sitting around while you know your best friend is being brainwashed, Hydra is taking over, people are being killed, so you can dance with someone.

Tony on the other hand gives up his perfectly happy life to save everyone.
 
No.

Russo logic applies to the past not the future... there's a reason it's arrive 5 seconds later and not right at the same time.
Alright, let’s try explain this and Odin helps me with the language barrier: time is a space / time continuum, right? And in the quantum realm, it doesn’t matter if it’s present or past, as far as we know, both traveling back and to the future is possible.

The Russo Bros. say that Cap stayed with Peggy in a different timeline, contradicting the screenwriters, that in turn say that it was always their intent that the kids of Peggy were actually Steve’s.

The only way to go from the past TO the future is via the platform. The film explicitly says you can’t alter the past, because once in the past, that becomes your present, and that becomes an alternate timeline once you got there. That’s what they mean by saying that the Peggy Carter that Tony marries isn’t the same from his own timeline.

The biggest thing that brokes that theory is Steve showing up on that bench, if he had shown up on the platform, I’d agree with all saying that yes, the Russo Brothers are right. But here is where it gets interesting: either Cap was living in the MCU timeline all along, OR he’s coming from a point in the future of that supposed alternate timeline he lived with Peggy. Here is where the can of worms happens: there is no ‘present’ when we think of time, neither future or past. That is not how time operates. So, in order to Cap to "go back’’ for his timeline, he would open another branch in our timeline, coming from the future and delivering the shield to Sam, for the same reason why he would open one if she stayed with Peggy, according with the Russos own "rules".
 
Oct 25, 2017
34,479
The only way to go from the past TO the future is via the platform. The film explicitly says you can’t alter the past, because once in the past, that becomes your present, and that becomes an alternate timeline once you got there. That’s what they mean by saying that the Peggy Carter that Tony marries isn’t the same from his own timeline.
Dude

He didn't alter shit because he came from an altered timeline and the bench is dramatic license.

How do you write so much about something simple.



The biggest thing that brokes that theory is Steve showing up on that bench, if he had shown up on the platform, I’d agree with all saying that yes, the Russo Brothers are right. But here is where it gets interesting: either Cap was living in the MCU timeline all along, OR he’s coming from a point in the future of that supposed alternate timeline he lived with Peggy. Here is where the can of worms happens: there is no ‘present’ when we think of time, neither future or past. That is not how time operates. So, in order to Cap to "go back’’ for his timeline, he would open another branch in our timeline, for the same reason why he would open one if she stayed with Peggy, according with the Russos own "rules".
Peggy died years ago.

He could simply be returning after she died to the coordinates... which btw would be going forward in time.

Either way he could come from the year 3000 in his altered timeline because he'd still be returning 5 seconds into the future of the prime timeline

If you're hinging your #TotalRussoDefeat on a bench.... you're lost in the weeds.

Cap returning home changes nothing. He didn't travel to the past of the prime MCU timeline
 
Oct 31, 2017
1,583
Alright, let’s try explain this and Odin helps me with the language barrier: time is a space / time continuum, right? And in the quantum realm, it doesn’t matter if it’s present or past, as far as we know, both traveling back and to the future is possible.

The Russo Bros. say that Cap stayed with Peggy in a different timeline, contradicting the screenwriters, that in turn say that it was always their intent that the kids of Peggy were actually Steve’s.

The only way to go from the past TO the future is via the platform. The film explicitly says you can’t alter the past, because once in the past, that becomes your present, and that becomes an alternate timeline once you got there. That’s what they mean by saying that the Peggy Carter that Tony marries isn’t the same from his own timeline.

The biggest thing that brokes that theory is Steve showing up on that bench, if he had shown up on the platform, I’d agree with all saying that yes, the Russo Brothers are right. But here is where it gets interesting: either Cap was living in the MCU timeline all along, OR he’s coming from a point in the future of that supposed alternate timeline he lived with Peggy. Here is where the can of worms happens: there is no ‘present’ when we think of time, neither future or past. That is not how time operates. So, in order to Cap to "go back’’ for his timeline, he would open another branch in our timeline, coming from the future and delivering the shield to Sam, for the same reason why he would open one if she stayed with Peggy, according with the Russos own "rules".
You're kind of there now. Only that:

a) He either lived in our MCU Timeline all this time, making it efectively a branched timeline from beggining to end

b) He traveled to our MCU timeline after living in the alternate past and find a way to not be seen until he's Forrest Gumping. This doesn't open a branch because he's returning. The GPS makes sure that this isn't a new branch.


HINT: There is only ONE universe where the Avengers won
 
Dude

He didn't alter shit because he came from an altered timeline and the bench is dramatic license.

How do you write so much about something simple.





Peggy died years ago.

He's simply returning after she did to the coordinates...

If you're hinging your #TotalRussoDefeat on a bench.... you're lost in the weeds.

Cap returning home changes nothing. He didn't travel to the past of the prime MCU timeline
Here is the problem tho: dramatic license or not, this breaks the rules they set in the interviews by the Russo Bros, while M&M rules work within the film even after scrutinization.
 
No it doesn't.

He used his device and went beep boop drop me off 5 feet to the left.
Well, according with the directors, Steve can’t use his device from the PAST and go beep bop drop me off 5 feet to the left in the FUTURE. That way - past to the future - he would only be able to show up on that platform. Pay attention to the Russos themselves:


I want you to pay attention to this line that Joe Russo says around the 06:33 mark:

"So, if you go to the past, all you can do is create an alternate future".

And here is where Joe Russo’s explanation breaks the film. Cap can’t go from the past to the future and show up on that bench. Only thing he can do if their theory is to be believed is go back to the past, even if an alternate past or your own main past... and create an alternate future. Can you understand what I’m saying? I disagree that they are correct because that logic is flawed:

If Joe Russo is correct, yes, Cap lived in an alternate future with Peggy, because he went to the past and that became his present. Once Cap - even from minutes after - goes back to the "main" timeline, he is also creating an alternate future because, from his perspective, even through an alternate reality, that moment happened in the past, since that would be the only way he would be able to use the time travel gps: only to go back further in time, not really the other way around.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,465
Well, according with the directors, Steve can’t use his device from the PAST and go beep bop drop me off 5 feet to the left in the FUTURE. That way - past to the future - he would only be able to show up on that platform. Pay attention to the Russos themselves:


I want you to pay attention to this line that Joe Russo says around the 06:33 mark:

"So, if you go to the past, all you can do is create an alternate future".

And here is where Joe Russo’s explanation breaks the film. Cap can’t go from the past to the future and show up on that bench. Only thing he can do if their theory is to be believed is go back to the past, even if an alternate past or your own main past... and create an alternate future. Can you understand what I’m saying? I disagree that they are correct because that logic is flawed:

If Joe Russo is correct, yes, Cap lived in an alternate future with Peggy, because he went to the past and that became his present. Once Cap - even from minutes after - goes back to the "main" timeline, he is also creating an alternate future because, from his perspective, even through an alternate reality, that moment happened in the past, since that would be the only way he would be able to use the time travel gps: only to go back further in time, not really the other way around.
He doesn't break the film.

The part bolded is entirely wrong. Cap is traveling to moments that haven't happened yet in the timelines he's traveling to, therefore there's no branching...

you're whole point about "Caps perspective" is just some rule you made up.

The movie logic behaves in one consistent way, you travel to a moment that has been Lived, you create a branch. Travel to a moment that hasn't been Lived, no branch.
 
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Oct 25, 2017
401
Stable loops are by definition where you aren't changing history because history already included the change
It's a paradox plain and simple, the silly gotcha of "it's a closed loop ERGO you're not changing a past" is just silly to the extreme. Just because it's a "closed loop" doesn't make a lick of difference, it's a paradox either way. It doesn't matter if it "already happened" in your past, you are still in your own past, which is incompatible with multiverse type time travel.

These paradoxes is why it's discounted by physicists, and why they insisted on the the multiverse type of time travel. Paradox type time travel wouldn't even be logically possible to entertain, let alone as a fleshed out hypothesis.
 
Nov 1, 2017
2,780
Well, according with the directors, Steve can’t use his device from the PAST and go beep bop drop me off 5 feet to the left in the FUTURE. That way - past to the future - he would only be able to show up on that platform. Pay attention to the Russos themselves:


I want you to pay attention to this line that Joe Russo says around the 06:33 mark:

"So, if you go to the past, all you can do is create an alternate future".

And here is where Joe Russo’s explanation breaks the film. Cap can’t go from the past to the future and show up on that bench. Only thing he can do if their theory is to be believed is go back to the past, even if an alternate past or your own main past... and create an alternate future. Can you understand what I’m saying? I disagree that they are correct because that logic is flawed:

If Joe Russo is correct, yes, Cap lived in an alternate future with Peggy, because he went to the past and that became his present. Once Cap - even from minutes after - goes back to the "main" timeline, he is also creating an alternate future because, from his perspective, even through an alternate reality, that moment happened in the past, since that would be the only way he would be able to use the time travel gps: only to go back further in time, not really the other way around.
Like I said in a previous post. Cap came back to the platform 5 seconds later like they expected him to, but he was shrunk with Pym particles so they wouldn't notice him, then he snuck over to the bench for a dramatic entrance.
 
Like I said in a previous post. Cap came back to the platform 5 seconds later like they expected him to, but he was shrunk with Pym particles so they wouldn't notice him, then he snuck over to the bench for a dramatic entrance.
That was clearly NOT what the film narrative lead us to think. Now you are fixing the holes for the Russos, when the film works,perfectly with the Markus and McFeely explanation.
 
Oct 25, 2017
401
The orange line TAO shows Banner is her new timeline caused by Banner and Co arriving... the black branch she shows is her giving up the time zone to Banner and never getting it back.

Clip the branches means return the stones to prevent the alternate timelines they created from going dark because they lack the stones to combat evil forces and what not.
The branch that TAO draws is like Cap showing up at the bench - the directors and screenwriters are confused/conflicted with what they're doing. TAO should have been more precise and mentioned that she was talking about possible futures, and that removing a timestone pretty much guarantees that something bad will happen in the future. Instead they went with some very confusing wording, where now people are talking as if TAO was talking about alternate timelines. Alternate timelines doesn't make sense w.r.t. multiverse time travel, instead, it's not an alternate timeline, it's just a doomed future. A possible future out of many. No timelines should be created, taking an infinity stone from that universe has nothing to do with time travel, it just means the stone disappears from the perspective of that universe.

There existed post TFA a timeline where Cap and Peggy never got together... that's the original MCU as seen in TFA the only movie set before Cap returns to Peggy.

Everything after TFA takes place fully in a split timeline caused by Cap going back to be with Peggy. That's the alternate timeline we see from there on out... TFA is also part of it because it happened identical because it's pre split.

That's how it's not incompatible
I mean, the writers said that Cap was in the past, i.e. he's been in the MCU universe the entire time. If that version of Cap doesn't come from a different universe, that means he went in to his own past, which shouldn't be possible. It didn't seem like they were saying that Cap is from a different universe, given that the answers of the Russo's and the screenwriters are different, what I thought is that they are just of different opinions on which kind of time travel should have been used. Paradox vs Mutliverse. And that makes sense given that Cap ends on the bench, and the TAO timeline branch stuff - conflicting creative input.
 
Oct 28, 2017
342
All this Cap timeline confusion sounds like some very clever seeds planted by the creators to keep us talking... I don't think it's possible they weren't on the same page about this. Or am I the one creating conspiracy?

*floats away*
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,462
It's a paradox plain and simple, the silly gotcha of "it's a closed loop ERGO you're not changing a past" is just silly to the extreme. Just because it's a "closed loop" doesn't make a lick of difference, it's a paradox either way. It doesn't matter if it "already happened" in your past, you are still in your own past, which is incompatible with multiverse type time travel.

These paradoxes is why it's discounted by physicists, and why they insisted on the the multiverse type of time travel. Paradox type time travel wouldn't even be logically possible to entertain, let alone as a fleshed out hypothesis.
it's not a paradox if it's self-consistent
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,465
That was clearly NOT what the film narrative lead us to think. Now you are fixing the holes for the Russos, when the film works,perfectly with the Markus and McFeely explanation.
Sorta like how you are creating holes for the Russo's with this

"Once Cap - even from minutes after - goes back to the "main" timeline, he is also creating an alternate future because, from his perspective, even through an alternate reality, that moment happened in the past, since that would be the only way he would be able to use the time travel gps: only to go back further in time, not really the other way around."

The movie NEVER suggests it's about Caps perspective. It's about whether the act time travel would change the past. If he travels to the present of a timeline, he isn't changing its past - even if this timelines date is chronologically earlier than the date he left from.

There aren't any Russo holes. Just you preferring a different solution from what was provided and trying to fabricate a way to be right.