Babylon 5 is now streaming on HBO Max, one of the very best shows ever

MikeProtagonist · Jan 26, 2021

Last time I rewatched it (holy crap, has it been ten years already?), I actually liked much of season 1. There's a couple of really dull monster-of-the-week episodes, but even weaker episodes like Believers have some really heavy storytelling, and that episode is in fact relevant today as a comment on the equivalent of anti-vaxxers.

Sinatar · Jan 26, 2021

My all time favorite TV series.

Don't skip any of it. Anyone telling you to skip stuff in the first season has no god damned idea what they are talking about. Every episode is setting up characters, governments and events that are super important to the show as a whole. It's laying the groundwork, a lot of it feels episodic and unimportant, but when you watch the whole show you realize how much of what happens during season 1 is referenced down the road.

The only really skippable episode in the first season is TKO, which has nothing to do with anything and is one of the worst episodes in the whole series.

apocat · Jan 26, 2021

Sinatar said:
My all time favorite TV series.

Don't skip any of it. Anyone telling you to skip stuff in the first season has no god damned idea what they are talking about. Every episode is setting up characters, governments and events that are super important to the show as a whole. It's laying the groundwork, a lot of it feels episodic and unimportant, but when you watch the whole show you realize how much of what happens during season 1 is referenced down the road.

The only really skippable episode in the first season is TKO, which has nothing to do with anything and is one of the worst episodes in the whole series.

Agreed. Watch it all. It's a stone cold classic, and part of the reason for that is the overarching structure of it all.

Cipherr · Jan 26, 2021

GK86 said:
"S1 is bad."
"Get through S1 and it is golden."

I went to Google how many episodes there were in S1...22 episodes. Kinda on the fence on checking it out now.

IMO its the best sci fi story in the genre. No shows can match the story B5 tells. Not Battlestar Galactica, not Stargate, not any of them. Its bold, and does some really unexpected stuff. And man the politics... it fucking nails it.

But yeah they have to lay those bricks in season 1. And that + the general 90s corniness here and there plus the dated CGI will probably keep this shows story from ever reaching the audience it deserves.

Try and tough it out if you can. (I wouldnt skip any of it if you are gonna watch it. People are crazy to suggest that IMO)

Mars People · Jan 26, 2021

So this has been rescanned from the original film in high definition?
And then they just upscaled the SD effect shots using AI upscaling?

Is that right?

FlexMentallo · Jan 26, 2021

I think the current streaming 4:3 versions are just better captures of the SD broadcast tapes. Assuming HBO Max has that version - haven't checked it out yet. Nothing B5 is HD AFAIK, apart from the fan AI upscales on reddit.

Mars People · Jan 26, 2021

A Warner Bros. spokesperson told Engadget that Babylon 5 Remastered has been scanned from the original camera negative. The film sequences were scanned in 4K and then "finished," or downscaled, back to HD, with a dirt and scratch clean-up, as well as color correction. The show's CGI and composite sequences, meanwhile, have been digitally upscaled to HD with only some minor tweaks where absolutely necessary.

So this is bullshit?

FlexMentallo · Jan 26, 2021

Oh, I hadn't read that. If that's true its definitely time for a rewatch on HBO Max.

BlackLagoon · Jan 26, 2021

Sinatar said:
Don't skip any of it. Anyone telling you to skip stuff in the first season has no god damned idea what they are talking about.

I thoroughly enjoy the first season, but a lot of its qualities only become apparent upon subsequent viewings when you can appreciate all the groundwork it lays for the rest of the series. So in this age of non-stop tightly paced prestige TV series, demanding people commit to 22 episodes of what initially appears to be of uneven quality, have lots of questionable acting and rough production values is a huge ask. By insisting that's the only way, you're setting the bar of entry way to high for a lot of people, and this isn't really a franchise that can afford that any more. Better to let people engage with it on their own terms. As I've said, they can always go back and watch the episodes they skipped if the show grabs them.

CrichtonKicks · Jan 26, 2021

Also, this was an age for DVRs, streaming, etc. Even with VCR timers keeping up with syndicated shows could be a bear- you never knew when a show might be pre-empted by a local basketball game or whatever. So shows were largely designed to be able to watched out of order, with gaps, etc. Season 1 was very much made with this model in mind.

Morrigan · Jan 26, 2021

I tried giving this show a shot a few years ago and I made it to, like, early or mid S3 before giving up. I don't care about dated VFX but it's the least of its concerns. The writing, acting and dialogue is just flat-out terrible all around and I couldn't stomach it any more.

Wrexis · Jan 26, 2021

Mars People said:
So this is bullshit?

It might not be.

Goddammit. I own the series on iTunes on SD quality, but it wasn't updated to HD.
I have to buy it again as HD :(

I have a gift card for S1 so I'll download a few episodes and see what's the difference.

SteveWinwood · Jan 26, 2021

After that first movie and first episode, I'm pretty excited to continue. I think people might be overselling how bad it feels or looks in the beginning.

Or it might be that I have a very high tolerance for bad sets, acting, and cg I dunno. But none of it seemed THAT bad. I've seen and enjoyed a lot that's way worse in every regard. Heart goes a really far way for me, you can tell plenty of people cared a lot about making this show as good as they could make it.

CrichtonKicks · Jan 26, 2021

SteveWinwood said:
After that first movie and first episode, I'm pretty excited to continue. I think people might be overselling how bad it feels or looks in the beginning.

Or it might be that I have a very high tolerance for bad sets, acting, and cg I dunno. But none of it seemed THAT bad. I've seen and enjoyed a lot that's way worse in every regard. Heart goes a really far way for me, you can tell plenty of people cared a lot about making this show as good as they could make it.

If you have any exposure to 80s and 90s syndication it doesn't look bad at all. But to people who have just seen BSG remake and beyond it's certainly an adjustment. The CGI on B5 was cutting edge (it premiered even before Jurassic Park released)- they were doing all CG at a time when Star Trek was mostly sticking with traditional model work.

SteveWinwood · Jan 26, 2021

CrichtonKicks said:
If you have any exposure to 80s and 90s syndication it doesn't look bad at all. But to people who have just seen BSG remake and beyond it's certainly an adjustment. The CGI on B5 was cutting edge (it premiered even before Jurassic Park released)- they were doing all CG at a time when Star Trek was mostly sticking with traditional model work.

It reminds me a lot of seaquest dsv and I'm not sure why. But it definitely looks better than that from what I remember.

The only thing that bothers me are these very distracting Centauri hair styles. They're so so goofy. It might be why I never watched the show before this.

CrichtonKicks · Jan 26, 2021

SteveWinwood said:
It reminds me a lot of seaquest dsv and I'm not sure why. But it definitely looks better than that from what I remember.

It's been a long time since I saw anything from Seaquest but Seaquest probably had a bigger budget since it was a Spielberg produced network TV show. But, yeah, same era.

Alexandros · Jan 26, 2021

Wrexis said:
It might not be.

Goddammit. I own the series on iTunes on SD quality, but it wasn't updated to HD.
I have to buy it again as HD :(

I have a gift card for S1 so I'll download a few episodes and see what's the difference.

I would be grateful for some impressions, I really love the show.

Zoe · Jan 26, 2021

To be honest, I've never seen S1--just snippets of it. I started watching in real time with S2, and I was fine.

I tried going back at some point, but I wasn't a fan of Sinclair.

Mugenhunt · Jan 26, 2021

Season One was written with the original "five year plan" in place. Which, having read it in the script books, was an awful idea.

See, JMS's original plan was for Babylon 5 to be a five season show. That ends with the destruction of Babylon 5 as the Shadow War heats up. Then, we'd have another five season series, Babylon Project, featuring Sinclair and Delenn traveling the galaxy with Babylon 4 as their new headquarters, fighting the Shadow War while raising their son who grows up to be a messiah and saves the galaxy, with the war ending on season 10. Seriously.

So when they had to shift lead actors after season one ended, JMS overhauled the entire proposal and made a much better and more reasonable one that required him to be writing most of the episodes to get the entire plot done.

flyover · Jan 26, 2021

MikeProtagonist said:
Last time I rewatched it (holy crap, has it been ten years already?), I actually liked much of season 1. There's a couple of really dull monster-of-the-week episodes, but even weaker episodes like Believers have some really heavy storytelling, and that episode is in fact relevant today as a comment on the equivalent of anti-vaxxers.

I've only watched the series once, and I liked Season 1, too! Michael O'Hare's hammy, soap-opera acting kind of worked for me. Combined with the show's low budget and limited sets, I often felt like I was watching a filmed stageplay--which I thought suited the show.

The high points of the season were very high, because you believed they were building toward something. (That said, the lows were also quite low.)

Betelgeuse · Jan 26, 2021

I really wish Crusader would have taken off. We desperately need another JMS epic!

Wrexis · Jan 26, 2021

Alexandros said:
I would be grateful for some impressions, I really love the show.

Alright, so I may have been unfair to this remaster. After downloading in 1080p, yeah it's pretty good, and there's a lot of love shown here.

Keldroc · Jan 26, 2021

CrichtonKicks said:
The key thing to to keep in mind with Season 1 is that it is structured like many similar shows at the time- most episodes feel procedural and disconnected but several times a season there would be episodes that were significant to the overall plot. The Star Trek shows were doing that, X-Files, etc. So it's easy to watch Season 1 of Babylon 5 and maybe recognize it as good for the time syndicated sci-fi but also wonder what all the fuss is about.

The stuff that makes B5 one of the greats (and also hugely influential) doesn't really kick in until Season 2. But the great thing about Babylon 5 is that when you look on it in retrospect it's clear that Season 1 isn't nearly as procedural as it appeared initially.

Yeah, while I understand the desire to skip the "filler" episodes, watching all of Season 1 and sort of settling into the "here's a problem, we will solve it in an hour" formula of the standard syndicated show at the time really enhances the moment when you suddenly realize they're not going to solve this new problem and the show will never be the same again as a result. It's worth it.

Agent Unknown · Jan 26, 2021

Wow, it looks great. This gives a much better idea of the quality than the comparison video posted earlier, thanks for posting these.

Wrexis said:
Alright, so I may have been unfair to this remaster. After downloading in 1080p, yeah it's pretty good, and there's a lot of love shown here.

Smoothcb · Jan 26, 2021

Just about to finish up my DS9 rewatch and was thinking about B5 next. Great news!

apocat · Jan 26, 2021

Wrexis said:
Alright, so I may have been unfair to this remaster. After downloading in 1080p, yeah it's pretty good, and there's a lot of love shown here.

Yup. That puts my old fuzzy dvd sets to shame.

Therion · Jan 26, 2021

Yo, I've been wanting to check this out for a long time, and I just happen to have gotten an HBO Max subscription recently. It better be as good as everybody says!

MLB_Animator · Jan 26, 2021

SteveWinwood said:
It reminds me a lot of seaquest dsv and I'm not sure why. But it definitely looks better than that from what I remember.

The only thing that bothers me are these very distracting Centauri hair styles. They're so so goofy. It might be why I never watched the show before this.

SeaQuest was done in LightWave, as well. I think that may have something to do with why they look similar. If I recall correctly, Ron and the team did the pilot on Amigas(yay Video Toaster! ;) ), before LW was ported to the PC. By the time I got to Foundation in the late nineties, the Amigas were gone, and we were all on PCs for Starship Troopers (the series), Voyager, Max Steel, etc...

SteveWinwood · Jan 26, 2021

MLB_Animator said:
SeaQuest was done in LightWave, as well. I think that may have something to do with why they look similar. If I recall correctly, Ron and the team did the pilot on Amigas(yay Video Toaster! ;) ), before LW was ported to the PC. By the time I got to Foundation in the late nineties, the Amigas were gone, and we were all on PCs for Starship Troopers (the series), Voyager, Max Steel, etc...

Yes! That's exactly what it is. I was trying to put my finger on why it made me associate them, but it's the outer space/under the sea cg shots. They have the same sort of feel. Star Trek's stuff looks totally different (and the budget probably many magnitudes larger which is probably most of it). Something about how the texture of everything feels too smooth and not real, and the fog (or water) and shadows that seem to try and obscure that. And the way the lightbeams look.

For the record I think it's still very watchable, I enjoy it. I'm not trying to insult it lol

Wrexis · Jan 26, 2021

Just to make you of something, there are a number of scenes in random episodes that not up to the quality of what I posted above.
This is not a surprise and I've seen the same issue happen to other shows like the X-Files and MacGyver, where for some reason the film of a certain shot was unavailable.

Unfortunately one of those scenes is Delenn's "If you value your lives" speech. These scenes are just minutes apart:

I will say they've done some decent upscaling of the CG. There's a lot of detail here which you couldn't see before.

Alcander · Jan 26, 2021

Hasn't it been on amazon prime video for a while now? Anyway - one of the greatest shows of all time. I need to rewatch.

GreenMonkey · Jan 26, 2021

Sinatar said:
My all time favorite TV series.

Don't skip any of it. Anyone telling you to skip stuff in the first season has no god damned idea what they are talking about. Every episode is setting up characters, governments and events that are super important to the show as a whole. It's laying the groundwork, a lot of it feels episodic and unimportant, but when you watch the whole show you realize how much of what happens during season 1 is referenced down the road.

The only really skippable episode in the first season is TKO, which has nothing to do with anything and is one of the worst episodes in the whole series.

I agree, but with a caveat. If you are someone older that was raised on a diet of X-files and TNG/DS9 and Buffy or whatever, you'll be fine with S1. S1 is about on par with Buffy or DS9's early seasons as far as continuity and quality of the weekly conflict. There is a ton of little moments and foreshadowing that payoff later, though, that you rarely see in 90s/early 2000s TV.

If you're younger and have less tolerance for the monster-of-the-week format, maybe try hitting only the important episodes, and maybe a few of the good episodic episodes. (IMO Believers is the episode that teaches you that the writing on this show IS NOT TREK! )

Oh, and don't watch The Gathering first. It gives away a lot of stuff. Really should be watched much later, even though it is a prequel. Edit: I mean, In the Beginning.

devSin · Jan 26, 2021

This is the version they put on iTunes. It looks really good, but the 4:3 is still a real bummer.

Realistically, this will probably be the final, definitive release.

Revali · Jan 26, 2021

One the best and most important TV shows ever made, and its political messages and warnings are more than relevant in today's world. It was ahead of its time and is worth the watch for any sci-fi fan. Just be prepared to bear with season one, as it's like DS9 where the show takes a little while to find its narrative footing, and the effects do get better.

maxx720 · Jan 26, 2021

ZeroMaverick said:
Is this like that time people told me to watch Stargate SG-1, but in reality it's not that great?

This is my concern.

Dary · Jan 26, 2021

Despite the middling 90s budget, it still managed to trump its contemporaries and give us actual (albeit rarely seen) aliens...

Invictus · Jan 26, 2021

I'm a little confused. Is what those YouTube videos look like what the show on hbo will look like? Cause I'm watching the first movie and it doesn't look like those.

Wubby · Jan 26, 2021

maxx720 said:
This is my concern.

I never liked Stargate outside the original Kurt Russel movie but really love Babylon 5. I recently re-watched all the 90's Star Treks (and Enterprise too) and even after a fresh rewatch I still prefer Bablylon 5 to any of the Treks. DS9 being the best of the lot. I usually rewatch the entirety of Babylon 5 every 3 years or so.

FlexMentallo · Jan 26, 2021

Checked out ep1 on HBO Max, dang, it looks a whole lot better than the DVDs. The upscaled FX are a bit pixelated at times, but it's still a solid upgrade overall. And in OG 4:3.

Time for a rewatch. It's been too long!

CaptainTrips · Jan 26, 2021

Its been 10+ years since I watched Babylon 5. Looks like its time for a rewatch of the best live action sci-fi series of all time. Not sure if i'm ready to deal with the emotions of the show finale all over again though.

For those rewatching, this archive of JMS Speaks contains a bunch of comments from Michael Straczynski that was posted on BBS boards back in the day when each episode originally (?) aired. There's a bunch of good insights into both the production and narrative foreshadowing side. Not sure if I can recommend to new viewers as there may be spoilers in there.

Also, i'm still astounded to realise that JMS wrote all 22 episodes of Season 3 and 4.

sbenji · Jan 27, 2021

CrichtonKicks said:
I legit love Season 1. I'm not going to argue that it isn't super corny or cheesy. It totally is. But there is something about 90s syndication that just feels warm and cozy.

sinclair >>>> Sheridan. I think that is an unpopular opinion in general though.

Arta · Jan 27, 2021

Never seen the show but I always loved this clip that I stumbled upon looking for TNG stuff.

It's like someone took Neal Degrasse Tyson/ Carl Sagan's description of how 4 dimensional beings would view those of a higher dimension and broke it down.

Dary · Jan 27, 2021

Arta said:
Never seen the show but I always loved this clip that I stumbled upon looking for TNG stuff.

It's like someone took Neal Degrasse Tyson/ Carl Sagan's description of how 4 dimensional beings would view those of a higher dimension and broke it down.

Proof the first season still has its moments.

It's a shame a certain actor had to drop out due to illness, or that scene would've had even more (and harsher) foreshadowing...

CrichtonKicks · Jan 27, 2021

Arta said:
Never seen the show but I always loved this clip that I stumbled upon looking for TNG stuff.

It's like someone took Neal Degrasse Tyson/ Carl Sagan's description of how 4 dimensional beings would view those of a higher dimension and broke it down.

If you enjoy this scene then you definitely need to watch the series.

AndersTheSwede · Jan 27, 2021

It's beautiful. Beautiful! Man. Every time I watch an episode it takes me RIGHT back. Even after all these years. The GOAT. As influential as the Sopranos ushering in the long-form TV era IMO.

And then I feel crushing sadness for Londo. Again. The show goes places nothing else would dare at the time.

I am noticing big quality differences between scenes. I'll chalk that up to some... budget 90s film stock. But damn does it still look good. Even CGI is noticeably improved.

So glad this exists.

Border · Jan 27, 2021

GK86 said:
"S1 is bad."
"Get through S1 and it is golden."

I went to Google how many episodes there were in S1...22 episodes. Kinda on the fence on checking it out now.

Yeah, I already have a hard time getting into shows with 22 hourlong episodes per season, so it's extra-rough to hear that B5 isn't even that great until you've nearly spent a day of your life watching it.

Agent Unknown · Jan 27, 2021

Well, I subbed to HBO Max and picked out a random Kosh-centric episode: Season 2: "Hunter, Prey." The picture quality and colors just pop, only reason I'll be keeping my DVDs now is for the audio commentaries and a few special features. Being able to see little details on the character costumes like Kosh's suit is so great. Of course wish it was in 16:9 but just having the live action and CGI both in matching 4:3 in great quality is a good compromise.

Arta said:
Never seen the show but I always loved this clip that I stumbled upon looking for TNG stuff.

It's like someone took Neal Degrasse Tyson/ Carl Sagan's description of how 4 dimensional beings would view those of a higher dimension and broke it down.

"Mind Hunter," probably my favorite S1 episode next to Chrysalis. I get chills every time I watch this scene, the lore and sense of wonder and even fear regarding the universe the show conveys is just top notch.

Wrexis · Jan 27, 2021

Invictus said:
I'm a little confused. Is what those YouTube videos look like what the show on hbo will look like? Cause I'm watching the first movie and it doesn't look like those.

The first movie - The Gathering - was not remastered as the original film footage is lost.
Skip to Episode 1.

Some HD clips for viewing:

B.K. · Jan 27, 2021

I never watched much of Babylon 5 growing up. I always preferred Star Trek. I remember seeing the pilot movie on TV and watching maybe four or five episodes of the series after that. I've been wanting to watch it. Everyone says season one is terrible. Is there a list of season one episodes to watch and which can be skipped?

Mugenhunt · Jan 27, 2021

If I had to just watch the 5 best episodes from season 1:

Episode 1: Midnight on the Firing Line
Episode 6: Mind War
Episode 13: Signs and Portents
Episode 20: Babylon Squared
Episode 22: Chrysalis

Then Season 2 onwards.

Season 5 is rough at first. There were production issues that resulted in the first half of the season being weak, but the second half has some of the best episodes of the entire series, so power through it.

Babylon 5 is now streaming on HBO Max, one of the very best shows ever

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