Background and credit checks are intentional systems of race and class based segregation

[Jedi2016]

I know that the company I work for checks credit, and I get what they're looking for. I've never been the one making the decision based on that, though, so I don't know how deep they actually look.

One stupid thing about credit rating is how it's separated out into types of credit. Apparently being good at making monthly payments for one type of thing doesn't mean you'll be good at making (smaller) monthly payments for another type of thing. The first time I bought a car from a dealership, I had that problem. Even though my credit score was nice and high, good credit through and through, including a fucking mortgage, they wouldn't give me a loan for a car simply because I'd never taken out a loan for one before. I got the car, but got bent over on the interest rate. Didn't have that problem with the next car I purchased.

 

[Kirblar]

I suppose, but background checks only become a problem in most employment venues if you''ve got particularly violent offenses on your record. A traffic stop or two isn't going to prevent you from getting most jobs available.

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Depends on the circumstances. Places like Ferguson will trump up charges in order to entrap people though - that entire town was built on a predatory police state fining everyone.

The bigger problem w/ dealing with this is that not doing background checks isn't the answer, as it turns out that "Ban the Box" laws actually increase discrimination because in the absence of data, people just rely on their (racist) instincts.

 

[Zoe]

"Ban the box" initiatives have actually led to increased discrimination: https://www.urban.org/research/publication/ban-box-and-racial-discrimination

Edit: Goddammit Kirblar

 

[Border]

Because if they have solid income and rental history why does a credit score even matter?

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Verifiable income isn't really all that reliable. There are plenty of people who make a lot of money, but are being bled dry every month by interest rates and creditors.

 

[leder]

Yeah, Seattle banned criminal background checks for screening tennants last year. It's kind of a sick joke though, because anyone not making 100k can't rent in the city anymore anyway, but it was a good gesture. Also seems unenforceable though....

 

[Acerac]

I agree with your premise OP, though I feel that it can always be made more strict.

It's not like our law makers in the US value social mobility.

 

[Zoe]

Yeah, Seattle banned criminal background checks for screening remnants last year. It's kind of a sick joke though, because anyone not making 100k can't rent in the city anymore anyway, but it was a good gesture. Also seems unenforceable though....

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A report came out recently that Austin has only gotten three or four violations reported in the couple of years it's been in effect, but there's been no enforcement/penalties at all.

Doesn't bode well for the time off policy they just passed.

 

[NeonCarbon]

I think they make sense, but in my country they seem to used appropriately.

 

[Deleted member 9479]

So if you fuck up once you're fucked up for life? How exactly are people expected to improve?

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The people I've known with bad credit didn't fuck up once, they fucked up repeatedly and weren't taking the necessary steps to get things back under control.

And understand I'm not defending the credit check system we have, there are definite problems with it, but it's not so stacked as "you fuck up once you are fucked for life"

 

[Angelus Errare]

The issue with credit score is that it's used as a metric for nearly everything. Want a job? Let's run a credit check, uh oh no hiring you even though your credit score has fuck all to do with your potential job (it makes sense for banking etc to a degree). Then ppl will turn around and say "get a job and work on your credit."

I had a credit check ran on me for my current job like what does my credit have to do with my ability to create software lol.

If you did a crime in your youth no matter how small and it's on your record…you are fucked if you're not a certain skin tone. That shit ain't right

 

[Deleted member 6230]

I read a report last year about landlords denying housing to or evicting women who are domestic abuse survivors. Kinda related

 

[Deleted member 19844]

This isn't true at all. Even if you get your court records expunged the criminal charges will still show up in the criminal database and people will still hold it against you.

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Actually it's true with regards to credit. It falls off after a number of years.

A similar system needs to be implemented with regards to criminal convictions.

You have a strong case with regards to the impact of prior criminal convictions, but you don't have a strong case in my mind when it comes to credit because there are ways to improve your credit over time. I know because both me and my sister have done it. it's not an overnight process, but I don't think it should be.

 

[regenhuber]

Because it's a proxy for trustworthiness and reliability that people use in the absence of other information?

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This.

They want something they can rely on that is difficult to game. References/income/etc can be manufactured if you want to.

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And this.

I own a small apartment in Berlin that I rent out to people. The apartment costs me like 200€ a month, if I had a tenant that doesn't pay, it would really fuck up my personal finances.
I could also be hit with a huge elevator repair bill any day, I'd have to pay 1/12 of that.
Therefore I would never ever trust somebody unless that person is green lit by a third party credit score company.
Everybody's good with photoshop these days, never trust a document.

Are credit score companies 100% perfect? No.
But I still trust them more than a potential tenant that has a motive to lie about the past (getting the apt).

 

[sangreal]

There is a correlation between credit worthiness and rental default rates. The larger problem is that most landlords don't report positive rental information even though new score models like FICO9 account for it.

Jobs checking credit is horseshit even for positions where bribery or whatever other excuse may be an issue

So if you fuck up once you're fucked up for life? How exactly are people expected to improve?

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Credit Reporting Agencies (which includes background check agencies) can't report any adverse information other than criminal convictions after 7 years

This isn't true at all. Even if you get your court records expunged the criminal charges will still show up in the criminal database and people will still hold it against you.

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Expunged information on a background check is an error that can be corrected. Adverse action cannot be taken until you are allowed the opportunity to correct any misinformation

 

[Deleted member 17092]

Credit Reporting Agencies (which includes background check agencies) can't report any adverse information other than criminal convictions after 7 years

Expunged information on a background check is an error that can be corrected. Adverse action cannot be taken until you are allowed the opportunity to correct any misinformation

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No. It varies state by state. In a lot of states arrest records will not be expunged even if your court records are. Lots of states have a bureau of criminal apprension or something similarly named where expungement will not remove those records and those records are still searchable.

 

[sangreal]

No. It varies state by state. In a lot of states arrest records will not be expunged even if your court records are. Lots of states have a bureau of criminal apprension or something similarly named where expungement will not remove those records and those records are still searchable.

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The FCRA is a federal law. Arrest records cannot be reported by credit reporting agencies after 7 years, only convictions. Nobody is doing background checks themselves so it is irrelevant what information could be dug up if you go to the courthouse. The information background agencies can report, even if they find it, is driven by the FCRA or any stronger state law

 

[GameAddict411]

Because if they have solid income and rental history why does a credit score even matter?

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I don't follow that logic. The credit score shows how most likely the person will pay back the debt back or loan back. Hence the scoring system, the higher the score the higher chance that person will pay it back. There are a few things they take account for like credit account age, history of after due payments, and above all how much are they already in debt. There are people with solid income who don't pay their credit cards, and show if income doesn't say anything about the person and their spending habits. You mentioned that past rent payment history should be enough, but it's actually counted part of the credit report and will actually uplift the score considerably so depending how years they have rented without late payments. I think it's pretty fair to hold these things against people. The only issue I see that impact struggling minority is actually creating a credit account in the first place. Outside of secured credit cards it's very difficult to get a credit card initially, but it takes a year or two of good behavior to get a decent score. I started from scratch in 2016, and now have a mid 700 credit score. It's not impossible.

 

[Deleted member 17092]

The FCRA is a federal law. Arrest records cannot be reported by credit reporting agencies after 7 years, only convictions. Nobody is doing background checks themselves so it is irrelevant what information could be dug up if you go to the courthouse

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Well, background check services in MN do search the BCA which is separate from expungement, so I guess that's illegal? I highly doubt it. This is a completely separate database from any court records. I don't think you're understanding that.

 

[sangreal]

Well, background check services in MN do search the BCA which is separate from expungement, so I guess that's illegal? I highly doubt it. This is a completely separate database from any court records. I don't think you're understanding that.

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They can search whatever they want. They are limited in what they can report. No adverse information other than criminal convictions can be reported after 7 years, full stop*. Nationwide

Except as authorized under subsection (b), no consumer reporting agency may make any consumer report containing any of the following items of information:
...
(5) Any other adverse item of information, other than records of convictions of crimes which antedates the report by more than seven years

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https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/15/1681c

Expunged records are reported all the time. This is an error, and it can be disputed. They are not convictions

*The only relevant exemption is for jobs over $75k/yr. However, I've been arrested and I've been through background checks for higher paying jobs and it has never come up -- probably because most state laws as strong than the FCRA

 

[Deleted member 6582]

Absolutely. In fact it's incredible that these businesses are legal, if I didn't give a 3rd party that info why the fuck should it be allowed to use it against me? What sort of society allows entities to stockpile ill-gained personal info about people to be used against them? The entire problem is hinged on this idea that banks should never assume any risk, the laws must be setup so that they are always profitable by virtue of existing.

 

[Deleted member 17092]

They can search whatever they want. They are limited in what they can report. No adverse information other than criminal convictions can be reported after 7 years, full stop. Nationwide


https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/15/1681c

Expunged records are reported all the time. This is an error, and it can be disputed. They are not convictions

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Ok fine, but do you think it's ok to report 7+ year old criminal convictions?

That's the fucking problem.

 

[sangreal]

Ok fine, but do you think it's ok to report 7+ year old criminal convictions?

That's the fucking problem.

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No I don't, and they weren't reportable until 1998 when the country had a 'tough on crime' hard-on

 

[shadowsdarknes]

I suppose I can see why these reports are used. Landlords want reliable tenants
Lenders want to make informed lending decisions.

I do truly empathize with those with a criminal record who are trying to better themselves through gainful employment. Fortunately with the economy improving, employers are reportedly more willing to work with those who have a record.

 

[DoItForJohnny5Alive]

The China social credit thread got me thinking on this, and it is a subject I think about quite a bit. I have a gross misdemeanor conviction from 4 years ago. I've had numerous job offers and apartments fall through because of it.

Credit checks too are becoming more and more common for housing and employment. So basically if you have bad credit we don't want to help you try to get out if it. And if you have any kind of criminal conviction oh we also don't want to help you in any way put that behind you.

So you end up with a system that keeps people down essentially, forcing them to take shitty jobs if they can even get that, and live in a shitty neighborhood with a shitty landlord. Or worse, be jobless and homeless.

You can of course luck out on both the job and housing front but you're entirely dependent on someone giving you a chance. For a society that is supposed to pride itself on individual upward mobility, it seems odd that we put the fate of millions essentially into the generous hands of someone else who has to "give them a chance."

I feel like if someone has paid their dues for their crimes and are a free person, no one should be able to hold their past against them, as it will just keep people stuck with their past instead of allowing them to move forward.

On the credit front, I understand a low credit score can be a good predictor, but if someone can show you their income and have a good rental history and references, I don't see why a credit score should prevent someone from getting housing, and especially a job, as they need that job to improve their credit.

Background is treated as an automatic exclusionary force unless you find someone who is understanding. It shouldn't be that way.

I honestly think these systems already are essentially a social credit system in the US, with the result of extreme economic segregation that often falls along racial lines. I can't even imagine being a black person with a felony on their record.

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There has to be consequences or repercussions for making poor financial decisions and criminal behavior in order to dissuade people from breaking the law or running up debt. What's tragic is that there is so little financial literacy in this country and even basic financing courses aren't taught throughout schools from k-12.

 

[Deleted member 17092]

No I don't, and they weren't reportable until 1998 when the country had a 'tough on crime' hard-on

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Alright nice. The fact that people can report even arrest records and not convictions less than 7 years old is totally fucked too.

 

[Deleted member 6582]

There has to be consequences or repercussions for making poor financial decisions and criminal behavior in order to dissuade people from breaking the law or running up debt. What's tragic is that there is so little financial literacy in this country and even basic financing courses aren't taught throughout schools from k-12.

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Poor people are routinely the most screwed. Predatory lending targets the poor, sin-taxes target the poor. You can deduct mortgage from taxes but not rent. The financial system is designed to prey on vulnerable people with the justification that they are stupid, lazy and irresponsible and need to be punished. This is wrong. Basic financial education isn't a solution either, you can't just tell the working poor "you have to save more!"

 

[Deleted member 17092]

There has to be consequences or repercussions for making poor financial decisions and criminal behavior in order to dissuade people from breaking the law or running up debt. What's tragic is that there is so little financial literacy in this country and even basic financing courses aren't taught throughout schools from k-12.

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I understand the credit side of things more, but the consequences of a criminal conviction go way too far beyond your actual sentence, which should be punishment enough.

 

[bossmonkey]

Bad or no credit keeping you from getting jobs was fucking mind-blowing to me when I was looking for my first job. How are you supposed to pay off debt if you can't get a decent paying job, or any job at all? Of course the answer is simple: the system is working exactly as intended.

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Having worked in HR I can tell you that most places couldn't give a flying crap about your credit score. That is usually only used in jobs where you're directly handling company finances. This makes sense because you don't want the guy with terrible credit making financial decisions for the company. I'm most cases you're not even pulling this info until you have an offer out there so unless you come back with an undisclosed felony you're probably going to be ok.

 

[Deleted member 6230]

There has to be consequences or repercussions for making poor financial decisions and criminal behavior in order to dissuade people from breaking the law or running up debt. What's tragic is that there is so little financial literacy in this country and even basic financing courses aren't taught throughout schools from k-12.

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Education with regards to financial literacy is definitely a problem. My mom is an immigrant from Trinidad and she never taught me how important building credit was. In fact she actively discourage every using credit cards and such since the concept to her just seemed like a scam. Then imagine going to school and this sort of financial literacy not being taught in your average public school.

 

[bossmonkey]

I understand the credit side of things more, but the consequences of a criminal conviction go way too far beyond your actual sentence, which should be punishment enough.

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It depends on the job. I don't want a guy convicted of embezzling funds working in my finance department. I also wanna know why the guy convicted of making terroristic threats is applying to work on my oil rig.

 

[sangreal]

Alright nice. The fact that people can report even arrest records and not convictions less than 7 years old is totally fucked too.

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The theory you're proclaiming is called disparate impact and as it relates to employment the EEOC completely agrees with you. Unfortunately all they can really do is sue on behalf of people and hope the court agrees with them. A lot of their better ideas are tossed out, such as when they recently lost arguing against dreadlock bans. Under Trump, they are no doubt even more diminished. At any rate, they have official guidance on this matter: https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/guidance/arrest_conviction.cfm

To establish that a criminal conduct exclusion that has a disparate impact is job related and consistent with business necessity under Title VII, the employer needs to show that the policy operates to effectively link specific criminal conduct, and its dangers, with the risks inherent in the duties of a particular position.

Two circumstances in which the Commission believes employers will consistently meet the "job related and consistent with business necessity" defense are as follows:

• The employer validates the criminal conduct screen for the position in question per the Uniform Guidelines on Employee Selection Procedures (Uniform Guidelines) standards (if data about criminal conduct as related to subsequent work performance is available and such validation is possible); 111 or
  
  
• The employer develops a targeted screen considering at least the nature of the crime, the time elapsed, and the nature of the job (the three Green factors), and then provides an opportunity for an individualized assessment for people excluded by the screen to determine whether the policy as applied is job related and consistent with business necessity.

The individualized assessment would consist of notice to the individual that he has been screened out because of a criminal conviction; an opportunity for the individual to demonstrate that the exclusion should not be applied due to his particular circumstances; and consideration by the employer as to whether the additional information provided by the individual warrants an exception to the exclusion and shows that the policy as applied is not job related and consistent with business necessity. See Section V.B.9, infra (examples of relevant considerations in individualized assessments).

Depending on the facts and circumstances, an employer may be able to justify a targeted criminal records screen solely under the Green factors. Such a screen would need to be narrowly tailored to identify criminal conduct with a demonstrably tight nexus to the position in question. Title VII thus does not necessarily require individualized assessment in all circumstances. However, the use of individualized assessments can help employers avoid Title VII liability by allowing them to consider more complete information on individual applicants or employees, as part of a policy that is job related and consistent with business necessity.

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In short, convictions should only be considered when they directly relate to the job, especially if the nature of the conviction disproportionately impacts minorities

 

[pants]

OP, if you have a misdemeanor and no other legal issues, a lot of states will let you have your record sealed or expunged with some minimal community service.

Figured Id mention it.

 

[Valkyr1983]

There is a correlation between credit worthiness and rental default rates. The larger problem is that most landlords don't report positive rental information even though new score models like FICO9 account for it.

Jobs checking credit is horseshit even for positions where bribery or whatever other excuse may be an issue



Credit Reporting Agencies (which includes background check agencies) can't report any adverse information other than criminal convictions after 7 years



Expunged information on a background check is an error that can be corrected. Adverse action cannot be taken until you are allowed the opportunity to correct any misinformation

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Wait so if you have some bad credit entries (went to collection and never got paid) it disappears after 7 years? Even if you never pay it?

That doesn't sound right

 

[sangreal]

Wait so if you have some bad credit entries (went to collection and never got paid) it disappears after 7 years? Even if you never pay it?

That doesn't sound right

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Yes, that is correct. 7 years from the date of the delinquency. There are exceptions for some things like chapter 7 bankruptcy (10 years) and tax liens but the vast majority of collections or otherwise unpaid accounts cannot be reported after 7 years

https://www.thebalance.com/what-happens-to-a-debt-after-seven-years-960438
https://www.experian.com/blogs/ask-experian/when-does-7-year-rule-begin-delinquent-accounts/

They can still try to collect, but the statute of limitations to sue is usually even shorter so all they can really do is harass you at that point. These debts are considered noncollectable

 

[tokkun]

How does the credit score get calculated? In your hypothetical case, as a landlord, would you know how it's calculated? Some random arbitrary number is gonna make it or break it?

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The biggest component in the score is your history of paying bills on time, which is relevant to a landlord.

I honestly don't get it. We're not talking about a loan or anything.

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I can understand it. If someone doesn't pay their rent, it's not like you can just call the cops the next day to get them out. You have to file a lawsuit, and go to court. Of course the landlord will want to try to avoid that situation if at all possible.

Wait so if you have some bad credit entries (went to collection and never got paid) it disappears after 7 years? Even if you never pay it?

That doesn't sound right

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Even bankruptcy does.

 

[Zoe]

Wait so if you have some bad credit entries (went to collection and never got paid) it disappears after 7 years? Even if you never pay it?

That doesn't sound right

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These companies sell delinquent debts for pennies on the dollar. It's understood they're not going to be successful in getting it all back.

There are things that will reset the clock though such as making a payment to the debt collector or civil judgements.

 

[Valkyr1983]

These companies sell delinquent debts for pennies on the dollar. It's understood they're not going to be successful in getting it all back.

There are things that will reset the clock though such as making a payment to the debt collector or civil judgements.

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Right but what if the balance goes to a debt collector

Then what? From the date it's sold off, it starts counting 7 years and it's gone from credit report regardless of if you ever pay or work it out with collection agency

So at that point the collection agency is out the money. And it doesn't go back on your report if you don't pay them ?

 

[regenhuber]

I honestly don't get it. We're not talking about a loan or anything.

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Oh yes we are. Here's a personal anecdote:
I take 1500€ as a safety deposit on the 700€ pM apt. I rent out. That said, I gotta pay 200€ pM for basic utilities and insurances.
The kitchen and bath appliances are worth ca. 5000€, the most recent renovation was 4000€.

Now imagine I end up with a bum tenant that a) doesn't pay and b) wrecks my shit.
Im basically losing 200€ a month until I can get him evicted, which can take a long time.
And when the bum tenant is finally gone, I won't see a dime for all the necessary repairs/replacements.
Not to sound hyperbolic, but one bum tenant could potentially ruin me financially.

So yeah, unless you are a mega real estate company, you better be 100% sure the tenant pays and acts responsibly.

 

[Deleted member 36086]

Because if they have solid income and rental history why does a credit score even matter?

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Because someone with a higher credit score is more likely to pay rent on time than someone with a lower credit score. Source: Me, a landlord with a LOT of tenants.

 

[OrdinaryPrime]

Oh yes we are. Here's a personal anecdote:
I take 1500€ as a safety deposit on the 700€ pM apt. I rent out. That said, I gotta pay 200€ pM for basic utilities and insurances.
The kitchen and bath appliances are worth ca. 5000€, the most recent renovation was 4000€.

Now imagine I end up with a bum tenant that a) doesn't pay and b) wrecks my shit.
Im basically losing 200€ a month until I can get him evicted, which can take a long time.
And when the bum tenant is finally gone, I won't see a dime for all the necessary repairs/replacements.
Not to sound hyperbolic, but one bum tenant could potentially ruin me financially.

So yeah, unless you are a mega real estate company, you better be 100% sure the tenant pays and acts responsibly.

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My point was for people to explain what a credit score means. I have yet to see someone do so without the benefit of some sort of searching mechanism. I stand by it's an arbitrary number that can mean a number of things and without context it's fucking stupid.

My girlfriend has a shitty credit score because her ex rang up tons of credit card debt without her being involved at all.

 

[sangreal]

My point was for people to explain what a credit score means. I have yet to see someone do so without the benefit of some sort of searching mechanism. I stand by it's an arbitrary number that can mean a number of things and without context it's fucking stupid.

My girlfriend has a shitty credit score because her ex rang up tons of credit card debt without her being involved at all.

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There is nothing arbitrary about credit scores

 

[OrdinaryPrime]

There is nothing arbitrary about credit scores

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What a well thought out response to my seven or eight sentences.

It is arbitrary because you can get a shitty one by doing nothing. It's a terrible way to evaluate people's wealth or ability to pay rent.

 

[sangreal]

What a well thought out response to my seven or eight sentences.

It is arbitrary because you can get a shitty one by doing nothing. It's a terrible way to evaluate people's wealth or ability to pay rent.

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That isn't what arbitrary means

Also, they aren't meant to evaluate anyone's wealth. They evaluate credit worthiness

 

[Valkyr1983]

What a well thought out response to my seven or eight sentences.

It is arbitrary because you can get a shitty one by doing nothing. It's a terrible way to evaluate people's wealth or ability to pay rent.

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People can't put stuff on your credit without you knowing

Even if it's an ex girlfriend or boyfriends fault, you co signed it's your responsibility

Don't "get into bed" financially with people who are bad with money

It's still your fault

 

[OrdinaryPrime]

That isn't what arbitrary means

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Oh please. What a flatulent response. You know exactly what I mean but it seems. You can't debate the merits of my statement but the definition. What a pro gun response

 

[Luchashaq]

What a well thought out response to my seven or eight sentences.

It is arbitrary because you can get a shitty one by doing nothing. It's a terrible way to evaluate people's wealth or ability to pay rent.

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Unless someone stole your identity and you didn't handle it properly there is nothing arbitrary about a bad credit score...it is directly applicable to the ability and likelihood of paying what someone owes. It has nothing to do with wealth.

You can't get a bad credit score for no reason.

 

[OrdinaryPrime]

Unless someone stole your identity and you didn't handle it properly there is nothing arbitrary about a bad credit score...it is directly applicable to the ability and likelihood of paying what someone owes. It has nothing to do with wealth.

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Explain how they derive the score.

It is a calculation of history. Which is rife with fallacies by its very definition.

 

[sangreal]

Oh please. What a flatulent response. You know exactly what I mean but it seems. You can't debate the merits of my statement but the definition. What a pro gun response

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Pro Gun? I legitimately I have no idea what you're talking about

You said they are an arbitrary number. That is completely untrue. What point do you actually want people to respond to? Your girlfriend's poor choices? You really want us to explain how scores work without searching? What would that accomplish? You would just say we searched anyway. If you want the underlying math of the score models, they are proprietary (not arbitrary)

 

[regenhuber]

My point was for people to explain what a credit score means. I have yet to see someone do so without the benefit of some sort of searching mechanism. I stand by it's an arbitrary number that can mean a number of things and without context it's fucking stupid.

My girlfriend has a shitty credit score because her ex rang up tons of credit card debt without her being involved at all.

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Don't know about the US system, but here in Germany I require a SCHUFA record that is not older than 6 weeks.
It's a PDF that either says "No negative information on Person X" or "Person X didn't pay this, that and that....".
Nothing arbitrary about it.
It really sucks that your GF got screwed over by her ex. But how is a landlord supposed to know she isn't lying?

 

[OrdinaryPrime]

Pro Gun? I legitimately I have no idea what you're talking about

You said they are an arbitrary number. That is completely untrue. What point do you actually want people to respond to? Your girlfriend's poor choices? You really want us to explain how scores work without searching? What would that accomplish? You would just say we searched anyway. If you want the underlying math of the score models, they are proprietary (not arbitrary)

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Pro gun. Debating the definition of a semiautomatic for example.

Yeah I think if you're defending it you should probably know it works.

My girlfriend didn't know and it's not her fault. But fine if you want to be an apathetic person that's not my issue. That's yours Holy Grail.