Barr on Police - "Comply first" "Complain later" "Zero tolerance for resisting police"

Lord of Ostia

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,210
Except there are plenty of concrete steps that the government could take to address those issues, but the whole point of this statement is to take the onus off the government reforming a corrupt and broken justice system and instead placing the blame of the incidents where lives are lost on the victims
Yup, this is just institutional victim blaming. It's holding the general populace to a higher standard than law enforcement.
 

asmith906

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,173
Why do the cops have their guns drawn on your in the first place? Are your hands up when you turned around? Did the police instruct you to turn around? Every situation is unique. Speaking in broad terms about rare incidents helps nobody.
Tell me what this man could have done to not get shot. He was literally laying on the ground with both his hands up.

Charles Kinsey, a mental health therapist, was shot by police in North Miami, Florida. Kinsey, an African-American man, had been retrieving his autistic 23-year-old patient, Arnaldo Rios Soto, who had wandered from his group home. Police encountered the pair while searching for an armed suicidal man. Kinsey was lying on the ground with his hands in the air and trying to negotiate between officers and his patient when he was shot.

Both Kinsey and his patient were unarmed. Following the shooting, Kinsey stated he was handcuffed and left bleeding on the ground for 20 minutes with police giving him no medical aid. Authorities stated that they were investigating the incident, which received significant media attention following the appearance of cellphone video footage. The officer who shot Kinsey was arrested in 2017 and charged with attempted manslaughter and negligence. However, he remains employed and has not been terminated.



Of course the shooting was ruled justified. His excuse for shooting the black guy with his hands up is that he meant to shoot the autistic patient with a toy truck. Of course he still has his job.
 

DinosaurusRex

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,249
Again, this is almost never the case. Prove me wrong.


(This cop got fired, then rehired temporarily so he could apply for his pension)

I could find more of these but really the onus is on you to prove it doesn’t happen. It clearly does, and that’s just from the few cases we actually get the evidence from, it’s not a stretch to imagine it happens when no one is looking.

Failure to comply should not be an extra judicial death sentence.
 

Mest08

Member
Oct 30, 2017
772
Except there are plenty of concrete steps that the government could take to address those issues, but the whole point of this statement is to take the onus off the government reforming a corrupt and broken justice system and instead placing the blame of the incidents where lives are lost on the victims
But those steps would be after the arrest, correct? Therefore those steps would really have no bearing on on whether you complied or not. I'm not saying the shit is right, I'm just saying, knowing what I know about the system as a whole, complying will lead to a better outcome for the person arrested than not complying.
 

Instro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,205
While I think what he said is really stupid, I do think people are also really dumb when it comes to interacting with police. Regardless of whether you did anything wrong, ignoring commands, arguing, walking away, physically resisting, etc., does nothing for you.

Unfortunately many minorities are often on guard from the get go. A situation the police force in many areas brings on themselves because of how they treat people. Ultimately though you have to outsmart them. Stay calm, record what you can, get their names, do nothing to incriminate yourself.
 

Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
8,432
But those steps would be after the arrest, correct? Therefore those steps would really have no bearing on on whether you complied or not. I'm not saying the shit is right, I'm just saying, knowing what I know about the system as a whole, complying will lead to a better outcome for the person arrested than not complying.
The issue is the current system encourages abuse of power because there is a lack of accountability, which leads to police brazenly lying and issuing illegal demands because they know they'll get off free in the vast majority of cases. It's ludicrous and incredibly problematic for us to expect civilians to instantly and completely comply to all demands, regardless of the legality of said demands, and such an expectation will only lead to further abuse. Maybe some of those victims might still be alive if they had followed the demands to the letter (though plenty have died despite doing so), that doesn't change the fact that the responsibility for the death is squarely on the officers and not on the victims, and treating it otherwise is only encouraging more cops to abuse the system
 

Mest08

Member
Oct 30, 2017
772
The issue is the current system encourages abuse of power because there is a lack of accountability, which leads to police brazenly lying and issuing illegal demands because they know they'll get off free in the vast majority of cases. It's ludicrous and incredibly problematic for us to expect civilians to instantly and completely comply to all demands, regardless of the legality of said demands, and such an expectation will only lead to further abuse. Maybe some of those victims might still be alive if they had followed the demands to the letter (though plenty have died despite doing so), that doesn't change the fact that the responsibility for the death is squarely on the officers and not on the victims, and treating it otherwise is only encouraging more cops to abuse the system
I agree 100%. However, there is enough evidence out there for me to know that my best chances of not getting fucked over or killed (I'm white so chances of that are slim) is to comply. It's fucked up that civilians have to take the high road, but unfortunately that's the reality we live in and it's not going to change. Should Barr be saying this? Of course not. They should be talking about training, police reform, racism, etc. But we all know that's not going to happen.
 

Lord of Ostia

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,210
While I think what he said is really stupid, I do think people are also really dumb when it comes to interacting with police. Regardless of whether you did anything wrong, ignoring commands, arguing, walking away, physically resisting, etc., does nothing for you.

Unfortunately many minorities are often on guard from the get go. A situation the police force in many areas brings on themselves because of how they treat people. Ultimately though you have to outsmart them. Stay calm, record what you can, get their names, do nothing to incriminate yourself.
Yeah of course people are dumb when interacting with police, why wouldn't they be? The onus is on police not to abuse them, because police hold basically all the power in these scenarios.
 

MegaBeefBowl

Member
Oct 31, 2017
1,463
Complain later?? Remember that video of several Police Departments threatening and intimidating under cover journalists looking to file a complaint about an officer? I sure as fuck do.

Now remember y'all, ACAB.
 

Instro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,205
Yeah of course people are dumb when interacting with police, why wouldn't they be? The onus is on police not to abuse them, because police hold basically all the power in these scenarios.
Absolutely, but from a practical perspective expecting that to change anytime soon, and in a sweeping fashion, is obviously not going to get folks anywhere on a day to day basis.
 

Commedieu

Member
Nov 11, 2017
5,923
I agree 100%. However, there is enough evidence out there for me to know that my best chances of not getting fucked over or killed (I'm white so chances of that are slim) is to comply. It's fucked up that civilians have to take the high road, but unfortunately that's the reality we live in and it's not going to change. Should Barr be saying this? Of course not. They should be talking about training, police reform, racism, etc. But we all know that's not going to happen.
Surely not with white people like you having an american membership.

Trump admin is fascist. And you're here defending it as technically being right when you know full well this isnt about saftey.

You even have the audacity to admit that you clearly have a lower chance of dying in a police encounter because youre white, and continue to alter the fascists intentions with this messaging.

Honestly, just go be yourself and enjoy not having to worry about this. Or fascisim really. Its not your problem to discuss. Which is clear by you portraying this in any way other than its intended. Zero tolerance means shoot minorities. Thats not even code.

Its all a very cowardly position to have as a human being.
 

ynthrepic

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
628
User Banned (Duration Pending): Dismissive Commentary on Systemic Issues Over Several Posts
Tell me what this man could have done to not get shot. He was literally laying on the ground with both his hands up.

Charles Kinsey, a mental health therapist, was shot by police in North Miami, Florida. Kinsey, an African-American man, had been retrieving his autistic 23-year-old patient, Arnaldo Rios Soto, who had wandered from his group home. Police encountered the pair while searching for an armed suicidal man. Kinsey was lying on the ground with his hands in the air and trying to negotiate between officers and his patient when he was shot.
This was one of the tragic cases I was referring to with respect to police recognition of mental health issues. You have to admit this was very much a freak incident where there is little to indicate what motivated the officer to shoot, if anything. His reaction to the incident seemed that even he didn't know, and potentially regretted it. The only conclusion to draw is that he was poorly trained, and should have never been carrying a rifle. I can't speak to the details of the case. It seems the jury couldn't agree it was "attempted manslaughter" (and that makes sense really). But regardless of charges, he should have been dismissed.

It's a tragic accident, but I fail to see how you can use this to draw sweeping conclusions about police behavior - which is something we like to do every time we see one of these videos. A handful of incidents on the internet amidst literally hundreds of thousands of arrests per year. There is a reason scholars devote decades to studying this sort of thing, instead of declaring they know what the problems are after watching a viral video or two. Every case is complex, and different.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,456
This was one of the tragic cases I was referring to with respect to police recognition of mental health issues. You have to admit this was very much a freak incident where there is little to indicate what motivated the officer to shoot, if anything. His reaction to the incident seemed that even he didn't know, and potentially regretted it. The only conclusion to draw is that he was poorly trained, and should have never been carrying a rifle. I can't speak to the details of the case. It seems the jury couldn't agree it was "attempted manslaughter" (and that makes sense really). But regardless of charges, he should have been dismissed.

It's a tragic accident, but I fail to see how you can use this to draw sweeping conclusions about police behavior - which is something we like to do every time we see one of these videos. A handful of incidents on the internet amidst literally hundreds of thousands of arrests per year. There is a reason scholars devote decades to studying this sort of thing, instead of declaring they know what the problems are after watching a viral video or two. Every case is complex, and different.
You’d think a modicum of reflection would lead you to the conclusion that the “hundreds of thousands of arrests per year” is as equally a damning indictment of the police as their state sanctioned murders.
 

bane833

Banned
Nov 3, 2017
3,453
Why does the police need even more power? They can already gun down people without fear of punishment. Shouldn’t that be enough?
 

Toxi

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
8,562
It's a tragic accident, but I fail to see how you can use this to draw sweeping conclusions about police behavior - which is something we like to do every time we see one of these videos. A handful of incidents on the internet amidst literally hundreds of thousands of arrests per year. There is a reason scholars devote decades to studying this sort of thing, instead of declaring they know what the problems are after watching a viral video or two. Every case is complex, and different.
It’s a “handful of incidents” that get widespread coverage. Do you know how many examples there are you don’t hear about on national media?

I know of someone who has literally been in prison for years without an actual conviction because his trial kept getting delayed after the pigs shot him for “resisting arrest”. As far as I can tell, his initial arrest was covered on one local news channel and then literally nothing.
 
Oct 26, 2017
2,913
In an episode of Serial a cop asks Tamir Rice's mother what she can do to help cops be better.

Her response is to laugh.

Wanna know why?

Because that question is a deflection from the reality of the situation where cops hold all the power.
 

Genryu

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
347
Remember that Texas cop that tried to arrest a guy that was just hanging out with his family because he was a black guy with dreads?


Good times, should have just let himself get arrested.
 

emesve

Member
Oct 25, 2017
783
What a fake ass hypocritical fascist. When Barr must comply, he says fuck you. But when it comes to the police force, all of a sudden it's the most important thing to comply. Couldn't be more transparent, fuck him to all hell, and this goes to all the people defending this too, if you can't see it even when it's this transparent, then it's on you.
 

Shadybiz

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,078
Tell me what this man could have done to not get shot. He was literally laying on the ground with both his hands up.

Charles Kinsey, a mental health therapist, was shot by police in North Miami, Florida. Kinsey, an African-American man, had been retrieving his autistic 23-year-old patient, Arnaldo Rios Soto, who had wandered from his group home. Police encountered the pair while searching for an armed suicidal man. Kinsey was lying on the ground with his hands in the air and trying to negotiate between officers and his patient when he was shot.

Both Kinsey and his patient were unarmed. Following the shooting, Kinsey stated he was handcuffed and left bleeding on the ground for 20 minutes with police giving him no medical aid. Authorities stated that they were investigating the incident, which received significant media attention following the appearance of cellphone video footage. The officer who shot Kinsey was arrested in 2017 and charged with attempted manslaughter and negligence. However, he remains employed and has not been terminated.



Of course the shooting was ruled justified. His excuse for shooting the black guy with his hands up is that he meant to shoot the autistic patient with a toy truck. Of course he still has his job.
Yeah, was going to mention Kinsey. I believe the officer fired 3 times, and we're told that he was aiming at Rios Soto, because it was thought that he had a weapon. Well if that's the case, he's a lousy shot, because Rios Soto wasn't hit at all, yet Kinsey was. There was no further attempt to shoot Rios Soto after Kinsey was shot, oddly enough, so I guess that he wasn't that dangerous after all.

If his case and Castile's case can't convince people that you can do everything you're told and STILL get shot, then I don't know what will. Sure, complying will in most cases probably improve your odds, but you're still not 100% guaranteed to get out of there with your life.
 

dapperbandit

Member
Oct 30, 2017
612
If it weren't for all these cases of people getting shot while complying I'd be inclined to agree with Barr. When stopped by the police you're generally better off doing what they ask instead of trying to win an argument with them. It sucks but you just win later if you can prove they didn't follow procedure or infringed on your rights. But too many times people got executed while doing exactly what the cops asked
 

TheGhost

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,989
Long Island
I mean I get it, thats the way I was taught growing up. But it's incredibly tone deaf not to understand why people are complaining pre-emptively. Police enabled by countless officers getting away with actual well publicized murder for years has changed their whole culture. Sure it was bad before but the last 10 years has magnified that drastically. It's like their stepping over the line actions are now encouraged.

Starts at the people they allow to wear the badge in the first place. I've lost count of how many people I know who by definition would be labeled as town bullies, drug dealers and openly racist back in the day now wear a badge. People I know that would punch first and ask questions later should not be cops, full stop. Sure people change but these guys don't. The barrier to entry is so damn low and the shield just enables their predator instincts.
 

BassForever

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,711
CT
I understand people being upset at not address the underlying issues of police brutality, corruption, and the innate racial/anti lgbt nature of those comments. At the same time compling with police in America gives you a far better chance of surviving then fleeing for fighting back, especially if you’ve committed no crime.
 

Fatoy

Member
Mar 13, 2019
494
As someone from a country where everyday police are not armed, I'd be inclined to comply and maintain my composure if I was stopped, because the police officer and I would be on fairly equal footing. Neither of us would be in possession of a weapon that could easily kill the other. The imbalance between us would be a civil matter (i.e. they can legally detain me), and I'd likely trust in the legal system to deal with me fairly - especially if I'd done nothing wrong.

If I was arrested in the States, I'd probably be far more wary, agitated, and, frankly, scared. Because I'd be getting detained by people with guns.

I realise it's a massive over-simplification of the situation, but in my mind having beat officers armed immediately escalates EVERY arrest. There are, no doubt, bad cops in the UK and the USA, but the major difference is that the bad cops over here might rough you up a bit, while the ones over there might shoot you in the back. That seems, to me, like a recipe for more tension, not less. I understand why people over there - particularly the ethnic groups that are demonstrably victimised by police - might not feel like going willingly.
 
Oct 26, 2017
7,807
Tell me what this man could have done to not get shot. He was literally laying on the ground with both his hands up.

Charles Kinsey, a mental health therapist, was shot by police in North Miami, Florida. Kinsey, an African-American man, had been retrieving his autistic 23-year-old patient, Arnaldo Rios Soto, who had wandered from his group home. Police encountered the pair while searching for an armed suicidal man. Kinsey was lying on the ground with his hands in the air and trying to negotiate between officers and his patient when he was shot.

Both Kinsey and his patient were unarmed. Following the shooting, Kinsey stated he was handcuffed and left bleeding on the ground for 20 minutes with police giving him no medical aid. Authorities stated that they were investigating the incident, which received significant media attention following the appearance of cellphone video footage. The officer who shot Kinsey was arrested in 2017 and charged with attempted manslaughter and negligence. However, he remains employed and has not been terminated.



Of course the shooting was ruled justified. His excuse for shooting the black guy with his hands up is that he meant to shoot the autistic patient with a toy truck. Of course he still has his job.
Also, sadly the cops statement about aiming for the patient and hitting someone else is believable.

Why?

My father was a cop ( only had to draw his firearm once in 25 years as he practiced descalation and was a talented wrestler) and my sister is in law enforcement also.

I went shooting with them at a range at there request, and said I was a good shot and that it was surprising. I asked why, they said most of their co-workers couldn't hit the broadside of a barn 10 feet away.
 

Capra

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,582
I understand people being upset at not address the underlying issues of police brutality, corruption, and the innate racial/anti lgbt nature of those comments. At the same time compling with police in America gives you a far better chance of surviving then fleeing for fighting back, especially if you’ve committed no crime.

A better chance, sure, unless they just decide to give you conflicting orders and then shoot you anyway. Then "You're fucked."
 

BassForever

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,711
CT

A better chance, sure, unless they just decide to give you conflicting orders and then shoot you anyway. Then "You're fucked."
So you agree with me, a better chance is no guarantee, and that is a problem that needs to be addressed. If someone is pulled over tomorrow are you gonna tell them to NOT comply if a cop is pointing a gun at them?
 

Matthew77

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
2,302
Massachusetts
All this arguing about compliance and training and maybe getting shot feels like missing the forest for the trees.

This is their first step to introducing a Police State, has nothing to do with the normal acab arguments.
 
Nov 1, 2017
556
I know Black people that believe in this smh. One of them was a cop himself.
Went to a anti-racism conference and one of the seminars i attended was about police interaction with local pd, the ACLU and a Black advocacy organization and this was pretty much all it was. The two officers there were black and one of them said to film your encounter because everybody has smartphones these days. When someone rightly pointed out if they go to pull their phone out to film while stating that is their intention and the cop mistakes it for a weapon because that there's a higher chance they get shot. The cop then said that you should get someone else to film it instead while you comply. It's not like yelling is treated as resisting arrest sometimes or anything.