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Pokemaniac

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,944
FYI, I think the actual speed of the eMMC in Switch is closer to 100MB/s. The eMMC chips are always advertised with the link speed, not the actual achievable speed from the NAND itself, which is typically much lower. And the default speed of the game cards is actually just 25MB/s (see here, it's an 8-bit data interface at 25MHz). It's possible that some cards operate at higher clocks, though, I'm not quite sure.
That would seem to match the loading time testing that's been done, where it's generally been found that internal memory > SD Card > game card, but the differences are fairly minor overall.
Isn't RTX IO just a fancy name for the GPU having DMA to storage and system memory? I think that's more impactful on systems with split memory pools and buses like a PC than an SoC solution which more or less has always had that (VRAM and RAM being unified limits the use of direct storage access being needed as the destination is going to be the same RAM whether it's GPU or CPU using it).
Even with a shared memory pool, I don't think it's typical for the GPU to be able to actually directly read from storage. There's definitely some decompression support involved as well.
Interesting about the gamecard speeds, I just trusted the information I had. As for UFS 3.0/3.1 storage, I think that would be fine for an upgraded Switch model and should offer plenty of speed when designed around the assets they'd be working with. SD Express makes more sense for existing Nintendo customers, both are expensive solutions, but with next gen storage capacity already bringing back the Wii's fridge memes, I think a 128GB UFS 3.1 solution via Samsung makes the most sense.

Pushing SD Express as a solution is far better for customers and Nintendo, 985MB/s is plenty of speed, and customers needing to install the game on internal memory if their SD card is old, is not going to be a deal breaker if they have 128GB internal storage. The real reason is because of the older SD cards being drastically cheaper and still capable of running a huge list of games, it isn't like every next gen game is going to need fast storage streaming, and indie games largely will not even think about this type of technology, so why force customers to buy a $200 card, when they could instead buy a $20 one for 80% of their games and use the internal storage for everything that does require it, or offer the faster SD Express at a higher cost to solve both problems. 1 Solution for many problems is always more ideal than trying to solve 1 and create several more.

As for game card speeds, they should technically be able to hit that, if Nintendo asked them to, I think they would make the jump, and these could be used for only games that require them, with next gen games getting that $70 price hike, I think it will fit inside the solution here too.
If Microsoft can get Seagate to build a proprietary not quite CFexpress card for their new Xboxes, then Nintendo can probably throw their weight around to make sure cheaper options exist by the time their new system launches. It's not like SD Express would avoid them needing to do that, since the tech industry at large has utterly failed to adopt it thus far. In fact, unless something changes, probably the real benefit of going with CFexpress over SD Express is that it's something that other products actually use, so Nintendo won't have to be literally the only force driving improvements to the format. There might be some minor cost benefits to SD Express in the short term, but it just doesn't seem to be worth the longer term downsides of making the storage situation on the new system potentially very confusing to the end user and tying themselves to a format that seems to increasingly be getting abandoned by higher end devices.
 

4859

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,046
In the weak and the wounded
Numbers combine CPU and GPU transistors.
Transistor count for PS1 is 1 Million.
Transistor count for N64 is 4.6 Million.
Transistor count for Dreamcast is 13 Million.
Transistor count for PS2 is ~54 Million.
Transistor count for GCN is 73.5 Million.
Transistor count for Xbox is ~88 Million.
Transistor count for 360 is 315 Million.
Transistor count for PS3 is ~534 Million.
Transistor count for Wii U is ~1 Billion.
Transistor count for Switch is 2 Billion.
Transistor count for PS4 is ~5 Billion.
Transistor count for XB1X is 7 Billion.
Transistor count for PS5 is ~13 Billion.
Transistor count for XSX is 15.3 Billion.

Transistor count can loosely map performance through the console generations, it is no surprise that if Nintendo is targeting PS4 or 2.3*Switch performance, they need over twice the transistor count. Hopefully this post can be useful to future tech discussions, and is why I listed so many consoles.

I also wanted to point out my expectations are not really that optimistic, sure they are still great, but I think that has more to do with DLSS and moving from 20nm to 8nm, that is a huge jump when you realize that 20nm offers just over 16 Million transistors per mm, while 8ULP is over 60 Million transistors per mm, while also offering 3D transistors vs the flat transistors used on 20nm.

Yeah, 3d transistors beat the shit out of Moore's law with a tire iron.
 

Xater

Member
Oct 26, 2017
8,906
Germany
So where is my Switch Pro? I feel like I was promised one multiple times by now and still nothing. I have been Switch-less for a while now. No games for me last year and it was a good time to sell it when everyone wanted one during lockdown. I was hoping to get a Pro version at least by the time Monster Hunter comes out but it seems like there is nothing happening.
 

Deleted member 31092

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 5, 2017
10,783
So where is my Switch Pro? I feel like I was promised one multiple times by now and still nothing. I have been Switch-less for a while now. No games for me last year and it was a good time to sell it when everyone wanted one during lockdown. I was hoping to get a Pro version at least by the time Monster Hunter comes out but it seems like there is nothing happening.

It's not happening before MH, that's for sure.
 

z0m3le

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,418
That would seem to match the loading time testing that's been done, where it's generally been found that internal memory > SD Card > game card, but the differences are fairly minor overall.

Even with a shared memory pool, I don't think it's typical for the GPU to be able to actually directly read from storage. There's definitely some decompression support involved as well.

If Microsoft can get Seagate to build a proprietary not quite CFexpress card for their new Xboxes, then Nintendo can probably throw their weight around to make sure cheaper options exist by the time their new system launches. It's not like SD Express would avoid them needing to do that, since the tech industry at large has utterly failed to adopt it thus far. In fact, unless something changes, probably the real benefit of going with CFexpress over SD Express is that it's something that other products actually use, so Nintendo won't have to be literally the only force driving improvements to the format. There might be some minor cost benefits to SD Express in the short term, but it just doesn't seem to be worth the longer term downsides of making the storage situation on the new system potentially very confusing to the end user and tying themselves to a format that seems to increasingly be getting abandoned by higher end devices.
It's less confusing than PS5's situation, while also allowing regular microSD card support, which is still widely used. It's not like SD Express support would cost Nintendo much at all, and it offers a solution. I think 128GB internal storage is the key to making it all work, since that should allow any game built for this new model to fit and run with asset streaming directly from storage. Allowing SD Express gives power users the option to upgrade their internal storage and regular current Switch users, the ability for SD card support they are already using. Remember Switch is suppose to be a seemless platform, changes like CF cards are against that goal.
So where is my Switch Pro? I feel like I was promised one multiple times by now and still nothing. I have been Switch-less for a while now. No games for me last year and it was a good time to sell it when everyone wanted one during lockdown. I was hoping to get a Pro version at least by the time Monster Hunter comes out but it seems like there is nothing happening.
There has literally been talks of a more powerful Switch coming since Foxconn's leak in October 2016. Buy a Switch if you want one, no one can guarantee you anything.
 
Nov 1, 2020
685
I thought that what AMD labels as SAM was the inverse of DMA, and that RTX I/O is basically piggybacking on top of DirectStorage then have the GPU handle decompression instead of the CPU?
 

4859

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,046
In the weak and the wounded
So where is my Switch Pro? I feel like I was promised one multiple times by now and still nothing. I have been Switch-less for a while now. No games for me last year and it was a good time to sell it when everyone wanted one during lockdown. I was hoping to get a Pro version at least by the time Monster Hunter comes out but it seems like there is nothing happening.

Ask foxconn. If I was Nintendo, I wouldnt even think of a switch pro with how the switch is selling.

But foxconn seems to want to repurpose as many factories to sub 10nm lithography as they can, after last years embarrassment, leaving non adopting clients to fight over a shrinking supply of factories to fabricate their chips.

So my guess is, Nintendo might not have very good options for continued manufacturing of the current switch at the volume they desire, which would result in a switch pro, which they would then market as a huge boon.
 

Thraktor

Member
Oct 25, 2017
570
Numbers combine CPU and GPU transistors.
Transistor count for PS1 is 1 Million.
Transistor count for N64 is 4.6 Million.
Transistor count for Dreamcast is 13 Million.
Transistor count for PS2 is ~54 Million.
Transistor count for GCN is 73.5 Million.
Transistor count for Xbox is ~88 Million.
Transistor count for 360 is 315 Million.
Transistor count for PS3 is ~534 Million.
Transistor count for Wii U is ~1 Billion.
Transistor count for Switch is 2 Billion.
Transistor count for PS4 is ~5 Billion.
Transistor count for XB1X is 7 Billion.
Transistor count for PS5 is ~13 Billion.
Transistor count for XSX is 15.3 Billion.

Transistor count can loosely map performance through the console generations, it is no surprise that if Nintendo is targeting PS4 or 2.3*Switch performance, they need over twice the transistor count. Hopefully this post can be useful to future tech discussions, and is why I listed so many consoles.

I also wanted to point out my expectations are not really that optimistic, sure they are still great, but I think that has more to do with DLSS and moving from 20nm to 8nm, that is a huge jump when you realize that 20nm offers just over 16 Million transistors per mm, while 8ULP is over 60 Million transistors per mm, while also offering 3D transistors vs the flat transistors used on 20nm.

Thanks for that, it's pretty interesting to see the increase in scale and complexity over time. The PS5 having 13,000 times the complexity is pretty crazy, but at the same time it makes it kind of impressive that consoles from that era could do what they could with 0.007% of the resources of a modern device.

I'd agree that expectations aren't overly optimistic from a technical point of view, and a Switch form-factor device with GPU performance around XBO/PS4 levels plus DLSS and an almost 10x CPU performance increase over the original Switch is technically plausible this year. However, my reason for being more cautious is more about Nintendo's design philosophy than anything else. If Nintendo has zero intention of exclusive games and no goals beyond running identical games at higher resolutions, then the simplest solution would be to stick with A57 cores and a double-sized Maxwell GPU and run at about 50% higher clocks than the original for around 1440p docked/1080p portable target resolutions. Even if more technically advanced options are available, that gets you 3x the performance and absolutely minimises the impact on game developers, as the architecture remains the same. This is also the same approach Nintendo took with the DSi and n3DS (although in those cases there were fewer options for architectural upgrades).

Basically my outlook at the moment is about a 50%, 30%, 20% mix between the following three options:

50% Probability - Support "4K" while sticking with the same architecture

As above, in this case they want to get around 1440p output while docked (similar to PS4 Pro "4K"), and want to stick with the same architecture to keep development simple. I'd expect something along the lines of:

4x A57 CPU @ ~1.5GHz
3/4 SM Maxwell GPU @ ~1.15GHz docked, ~575MHz handheld
6GB (maybe 8GB) LPDDR5 on 64-bit bus (or maybe LPDDR4X on 128-bit)

30% Probability - Support 4K with DLSS and new architecture

In this case Nintendo would still be looking to play the same games at higher resolutions, but would be using DLSS, and therefore a new GPU architecture, to do it. I wrote a while ago about a minimum viable solution for 4K DLSS using Ampere's tensor cores with sparsity support, and I still think the device would look very similar:

4x A76/A77/A78 CPU @ ~1.6GHz (plus some A55 cores for the OS/sleep mode/etc.)
6 SM Ampere GPU @ ~1.3GHz docked, ~500-600MHz handheld
8GB LPDDR5 on 128-bit bus

The benefit of moving to a new architecture (and being able to rely on DLSS for most of the resolution increase) would mean more graphical enhancements than just resolution, and I'd expect a small number of exclusive games in this case as well.

20% Probability - Basically a Switch 2

In this case it's not just a 4K model of the existing Switch, but a full-on replacement which is supported alongside the original model for a year or two, but will then get mainly exclusive games from that point on (and perhaps quite a few before that as well). BC with the original is obviously important, but otherwise it's a clean break architecturally.

6x A78 CPU @ ~1.8GHz (plus some A55 cores)
6/8 SM Ampere GPU @ ~1.1-1.3GHz docked, ~500-600MHz handheld
8GB LPDDR5 on 128-bit bus (maybe even 12GB at a stretch)

(This is also the option where I think something like CFExpress Type A and high-speed internal UFS storage would be important, for the others I'd expect them to stick to standard microSD cards)

That would seem to match the loading time testing that's been done, where it's generally been found that internal memory > SD Card > game card, but the differences are fairly minor overall.

Even with a shared memory pool, I don't think it's typical for the GPU to be able to actually directly read from storage. There's definitely some decompression support involved as well.

If Microsoft can get Seagate to build a proprietary not quite CFexpress card for their new Xboxes, then Nintendo can probably throw their weight around to make sure cheaper options exist by the time their new system launches. It's not like SD Express would avoid them needing to do that, since the tech industry at large has utterly failed to adopt it thus far. In fact, unless something changes, probably the real benefit of going with CFexpress over SD Express is that it's something that other products actually use, so Nintendo won't have to be literally the only force driving improvements to the format. There might be some minor cost benefits to SD Express in the short term, but it just doesn't seem to be worth the longer term downsides of making the storage situation on the new system potentially very confusing to the end user and tying themselves to a format that seems to increasingly be getting abandoned by higher end devices.

Yeah, that's along the lines of my thinking. Partner with Sandisk or Samsung or whoever to have a line of reasonably-priced, Switch branded CFExpress Type A cards out at launch. It would give that partner company near 100% market share until competitors could get cards to market, and Nintendo's big enough to guarantee a large market for them, so it could be a good deal for both sides.

Also, I don't think there would be any cost benefits to SD Express. Both CFExpress Type A and first-gen SD Express use an identical interface (a single lane of PCIe 3.0), whereas SD Express cards and sockets both have to support several older SD interface standards as well, so if anything SD Express would be more expensive for both the device and the cards (although probably only by a few cents).
 

Deleted member 6730

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,526
So where is my Switch Pro? I feel like I was promised one multiple times by now and still nothing. I have been Switch-less for a while now. No games for me last year and it was a good time to sell it when everyone wanted one during lockdown. I was hoping to get a Pro version at least by the time Monster Hunter comes out but it seems like there is nothing happening.
Nintendo never promised anything and the internet loves to hype the next big thing as if it were coming out tomorrow.

With that said, it's highly likely a new model is coming this year, but Nintendo normally doesn't unveil hardware until the second half of the year.
 

Pokemaniac

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,944
It's less confusing than PS5's situation, while also allowing regular microSD card support, which is still widely used. It's not like SD Express support would cost Nintendo much at all, and it offers a solution. I think 128GB internal storage is the key to making it all work, since that should allow any game built for this new model to fit and run with asset streaming directly from storage. Allowing SD Express gives power users the option to upgrade their internal storage and regular current Switch users, the ability for SD card support they are already using. Remember Switch is suppose to be a seemless platform, changes like CF cards are against that goal.
The PS5's storage situation isn't really all that confusing. Blatantly unfinished and inconvenient, yes, but not actually confusing. The types of storage (internal, M.2, USB) and what you can do with them are very clearly delineated.

On the other hand, having different capabilities based on the type of SD card, a format notorious for it's confusing labeling, is something that would probably end up being confusing. You actually have to go pretty far out of your way to find an SD card that is both bigger than the current Switch's internal storage and is insufficiently fast to run games off of, but that dynamic would reverse for SD Express. SD Express isn't going to take over the SD card market any time soon, if ever. It would be a lot simpler just to tell people to get a CFexpress card where anything that could be bought would be good enough.

Retaining the same external storage medium isn't really necessary for keeping the platform seamless, especially when all the save data is locked to internal memory anyway.
 

4859

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,046
In the weak and the wounded
Thanks for that, it's pretty interesting to see the increase in scale and complexity over time. The PS5 having 13,000 times the complexity is pretty crazy, but at the same time it makes it kind of impressive that consoles from that era could do what they could with 0.007% of the resources of a modern device.

I'd agree that expectations aren't overly optimistic from a technical point of view, and a Switch form-factor device with GPU performance around XBO/PS4 levels plus DLSS and an almost 10x CPU performance increase over the original Switch is technically plausible this year. However, my reason for being more cautious is more about Nintendo's design philosophy than anything else. If Nintendo has zero intention of exclusive games and no goals beyond running identical games at higher resolutions, then the simplest solution would be to stick with A57 cores and a double-sized Maxwell GPU and run at about 50% higher clocks than the original for around 1440p docked/1080p portable target resolutions. Even if more technically advanced options are available, that gets you 3x the performance and absolutely minimises the impact on game developers, as the architecture remains the same. This is also the same approach Nintendo took with the DSi and n3DS (although in those cases there were fewer options for architectural upgrades).

Basically my outlook at the moment is about a 50%, 30%, 20% mix between the following three options:

50% Probability - Support "4K" while sticking with the same architecture

As above, in this case they want to get around 1440p output while docked (similar to PS4 Pro "4K"), and want to stick with the same architecture to keep development simple. I'd expect something along the lines of:

4x A57 CPU @ ~1.5GHz
3/4 SM Maxwell GPU @ ~1.15GHz docked, ~575MHz handheld
6GB (maybe 8GB) LPDDR5 on 64-bit bus (or maybe LPDDR4X on 128-bit)

30% Probability - Support 4K with DLSS and new architecture

In this case Nintendo would still be looking to play the same games at higher resolutions, but would be using DLSS, and therefore a new GPU architecture, to do it. I wrote a while ago about a minimum viable solution for 4K DLSS using Ampere's tensor cores with sparsity support, and I still think the device would look very similar:

4x A76/A77/A78 CPU @ ~1.6GHz (plus some A55 cores for the OS/sleep mode/etc.)
6 SM Ampere GPU @ ~1.3GHz docked, ~500-600MHz handheld
8GB LPDDR5 on 128-bit bus

The benefit of moving to a new architecture (and being able to rely on DLSS for most of the resolution increase) would mean more graphical enhancements than just resolution, and I'd expect a small number of exclusive games in this case as well.

20% Probability - Basically a Switch 2

In this case it's not just a 4K model of the existing Switch, but a full-on replacement which is supported alongside the original model for a year or two, but will then get mainly exclusive games from that point on (and perhaps quite a few before that as well). BC with the original is obviously important, but otherwise it's a clean break architecturally.

6x A78 CPU @ ~1.8GHz (plus some A55 cores)
6/8 SM Ampere GPU @ ~1.1-1.3GHz docked, ~500-600MHz handheld
8GB LPDDR5 on 128-bit bus (maybe even 12GB at a stretch)

(This is also the option where I think something like CFExpress Type A and high-speed internal UFS storage would be important, for the others I'd expect them to stick to standard microSD cards)



Yeah, that's along the lines of my thinking. Partner with Sandisk or Samsung or whoever to have a line of reasonably-priced, Switch branded CFExpress Type A cards out at launch. It would give that partner company near 100% market share until competitors could get cards to market, and Nintendo's big enough to guarantee a large market for them, so it could be a good deal for both sides.

Also, I don't think there would be any cost benefits to SD Express. Both CFExpress Type A and first-gen SD Express use an identical interface (a single lane of PCIe 3.0), whereas SD Express cards and sockets both have to support several older SD interface standards as well, so if anything SD Express would be more expensive for both the device and the cards (although probably only by a few cents).

I'm definitely thinking option #1.

Didnt nvidia ditch tensor core dlss with a normal shader core computed solution to much better results?
 

z0m3le

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,418
Thanks for that, it's pretty interesting to see the increase in scale and complexity over time. The PS5 having 13,000 times the complexity is pretty crazy, but at the same time it makes it kind of impressive that consoles from that era could do what they could with 0.007% of the resources of a modern device.

I'd agree that expectations aren't overly optimistic from a technical point of view, and a Switch form-factor device with GPU performance around XBO/PS4 levels plus DLSS and an almost 10x CPU performance increase over the original Switch is technically plausible this year. However, my reason for being more cautious is more about Nintendo's design philosophy than anything else. If Nintendo has zero intention of exclusive games and no goals beyond running identical games at higher resolutions, then the simplest solution would be to stick with A57 cores and a double-sized Maxwell GPU and run at about 50% higher clocks than the original for around 1440p docked/1080p portable target resolutions. Even if more technically advanced options are available, that gets you 3x the performance and absolutely minimises the impact on game developers, as the architecture remains the same. This is also the same approach Nintendo took with the DSi and n3DS (although in those cases there were fewer options for architectural upgrades).

Basically my outlook at the moment is about a 50%, 30%, 20% mix between the following three options:

50% Probability - Support "4K" while sticking with the same architecture

As above, in this case they want to get around 1440p output while docked (similar to PS4 Pro "4K"), and want to stick with the same architecture to keep development simple. I'd expect something along the lines of:

4x A57 CPU @ ~1.5GHz
3/4 SM Maxwell GPU @ ~1.15GHz docked, ~575MHz handheld
6GB (maybe 8GB) LPDDR5 on 64-bit bus (or maybe LPDDR4X on 128-bit)

30% Probability - Support 4K with DLSS and new architecture

In this case Nintendo would still be looking to play the same games at higher resolutions, but would be using DLSS, and therefore a new GPU architecture, to do it. I wrote a while ago about a minimum viable solution for 4K DLSS using Ampere's tensor cores with sparsity support, and I still think the device would look very similar:

4x A76/A77/A78 CPU @ ~1.6GHz (plus some A55 cores for the OS/sleep mode/etc.)
6 SM Ampere GPU @ ~1.3GHz docked, ~500-600MHz handheld
8GB LPDDR5 on 128-bit bus

The benefit of moving to a new architecture (and being able to rely on DLSS for most of the resolution increase) would mean more graphical enhancements than just resolution, and I'd expect a small number of exclusive games in this case as well.

20% Probability - Basically a Switch 2

In this case it's not just a 4K model of the existing Switch, but a full-on replacement which is supported alongside the original model for a year or two, but will then get mainly exclusive games from that point on (and perhaps quite a few before that as well). BC with the original is obviously important, but otherwise it's a clean break architecturally.

6x A78 CPU @ ~1.8GHz (plus some A55 cores)
6/8 SM Ampere GPU @ ~1.1-1.3GHz docked, ~500-600MHz handheld
8GB LPDDR5 on 128-bit bus (maybe even 12GB at a stretch)

(This is also the option where I think something like CFExpress Type A and high-speed internal UFS storage would be important, for the others I'd expect them to stick to standard microSD cards)



Yeah, that's along the lines of my thinking. Partner with Sandisk or Samsung or whoever to have a line of reasonably-priced, Switch branded CFExpress Type A cards out at launch. It would give that partner company near 100% market share until competitors could get cards to market, and Nintendo's big enough to guarantee a large market for them, so it could be a good deal for both sides.

Also, I don't think there would be any cost benefits to SD Express. Both CFExpress Type A and first-gen SD Express use an identical interface (a single lane of PCIe 3.0), whereas SD Express cards and sockets both have to support several older SD interface standards as well, so if anything SD Express would be more expensive for both the device and the cards (although probably only by a few cents).
Yeah I'm pretty similar in expectations, except with TSMC's reported price changes, your 50% option seems the least likely, and instead of 1.3GHz GPU for your next likely option, I have 1GHz, which should put render performance near PS4.

Thing is, Tegra X1 on 7nm via TSMC was probably something Nintendo was looking into, but not without volume discounts, and not after the price changes. If Nintendo Switch was mid way through its life, that means that Nintendo isn't planning to have to replace Switch until 2025. Nintendo was just forced off of 20nm and 12nm wasn't going to last them 6 years, so with a model upgrade, they would have likely went with that solution. It was taken off the table by TSMC, and Samsung's 8nm solution is far cheaper while offering plenty of performance benefits. Nvidia can handle compatibility with their own SoC designs, even if it is in a virtual wrapper.

I just think TSMC took that 50% option you have off the table, and thus this year's model is both a pro and a successor, with a very long life span still ahead of it, something a performance boost like this, would allow.
I'm definitely thinking option #1.

Didnt nvidia ditch tensor core dlss with a normal shader core computed solution to much better results?
No, 1.9 used Cuda cores, 2.0 used Tensor cores. Nintendo didn't care about DLSS until 2.0, no one did. It wasn't part of any design choice and the main reason Tegra X1 is unlikely, is because TSMC is raising their prices and discontinuing volume discounts. TSMC holds certain patents that would force Nvidia to rebuild Tegra X1 from scratch, and because the engineering team has moved on to Ampere and Ampere is already on 8nm, it's the easiest way forward.
 

Dakhil

Member
Mar 26, 2019
4,459
Orange County, CA
I'm pretty sure all variants of DLSS run on tensor cores.
Actually, DLSS 1.9 on Control ran on CUDA cores rather than Tensor cores.

Didnt nvidia ditch tensor core dlss with a normal shader core computed solution to much better results?
Nvidia did indeed use CUDA cores for DLSS 1.9 on Control, but the results from using CUDA cores were not as good as using Tensor cores as DLSS 2.0 has shown.
 

4859

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,046
In the weak and the wounded
Yeah I'm pretty similar in expectations, except with TSMC's reported price changes, your 50% option seems the least likely, and instead of 1.3GHz GPU for your next likely option, I have 1GHz, which should put render performance near PS4.

Thing is, Tegra X1 on 7nm via TSMC was probably something Nintendo was looking into, but not without volume discounts, and not after the price changes. If Nintendo Switch was mid way through its life, that means that Nintendo isn't planning to have to replace Switch until 2025. Nintendo was just forced off of 20nm and 12nm wasn't going to last them 6 years, so with a model upgrade, they would have likely went with that solution. It was taken off the table by TSMC, and Samsung's 8nm solution is far cheaper while offering plenty of performance benefits. Nvidia can handle compatibility with their own SoC designs, even if it is in a virtual wrapper.

I just think TSMC took that 50% option you have off the table, and thus this year's model is both a pro and a successor, with a very long life span still ahead of it, something a performance boost like this, would allow.

No, 1.9 used Cuda cores, 2.0 used Tensor cores. Nintendo didn't care about DLSS until 2.0, no one did. It wasn't part of any design choice and the main reason Tegra X1 is unlikely, is because TSMC is raising their prices and discontinuing volume discounts. TSMC holds certain patents that would force Nvidia to rebuild Tegra X1 from scratch, and because the engineering team has moved on to Ampere and Ampere is already on 8nm, it's the easiest way forward.

That's what I was remembering, but it looks like that is what was ditched to go back to tensor.

Yeah, Nintendo getting forced onto sub 10nm is the situation I'm thinking is going on with switch pro.
 

Plasmid

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
686
Sadly my switch was lost in my move, i think my movers stole it. I am super desperate for a switch pro announcement :(
 

Deleted member 2791

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
19,054
I've scrolled back the last few pages but hasn't seen it posted yet. The first actual Switch revision details have potentially been detailed by known engineer/hacker SciresM on 4Chan. Anyone can feel free to make a thread on it or repost them since it's actually significant news with a trustworthy source.

/vg/ - /hbg/ - Homebrew and Hacking General - Video Game Generals - 4chan

/hbg/ - Homebrew and Hacking General - "/vg/ - Video Game Generals" is 4chan's imageboard dedicated to the discussion of PC and console video games.
Ctrl+F the tripcode "!t.3fxzeyWo" for all of his six posts on the matter. I'll copy paste them here though.

Nintendo actually is working on a new model with upgraded display stuff and has been for ~1.5-2 years. I personally believe it's 4K given the signs I'm seeing in the firmware, but that's not confirmed yet and could be wrong.

The new hardware is codenamed Aula, it's using a Mariko SoC. There's a bunch of references to it in code (atmosphere supports the new display already in theory).

The tablet itself definitely has an upgraded display, I don't know if it's 4K.

Aula has firmware support some Realtek chip that advertises itself as a "4K UHD multimedia SoC", too, hence my belief it's 4K. That chip might be inside a new dock and not inside the tablet, though, there's no way to tell from the firmware code yet.

>>319820002
Aula explicitly supports handheld mode. It is not docked only; that's calcio, which seems like it's for internal only/never releasing since Calcio has no gamecard slot and no battery.

>>319819647
You can check boot sysmodule display code if you're curious. The new display doesn't support power management pwm, it has its own vendor specific bs I had to reverse engineer and implement a month or two ago.

Mariko has *substantially* better cooling and battery life. It's a bona fide die shrink over the original generation.

My best guess (pure speculation, no firmware indication this is the case) is that if they need extra performance, they'll push it to higher clock rates across the board.

But yeah, I speculate games will be like "DSi enhanced" games were, or like how some games benefited from PS4 Pro despite working on PS4.

>>319820443
>>319819805
Checked my previous discussions with hexkyz, the upgraded tablet display is an OLED screen. Probably not higher resolution on tablet itself, so I guess the 4k realtek chip is more likely to be new dock than I thought it was.

>>319823628
Vanilla probably won't.

We're in the realm of speculation. Aula has new GPIO that redbox doesn't related to support for this, so I would tentatively guess that redbox units won't support the new thing.
 
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4859

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,046
In the weak and the wounded
I've scrolled back the last few pages but hasn't seen it posted yet. The first actual Switch revision details have potentially been detailed by known engineer/hacker SciresM on 4Chan. Anyone can feel free to make a thread on it or repost them since it's actually significant news with a trustworthy source.

/vg/ - /hbg/ - Homebrew and Hacking General - Video Game Generals - 4chan

/hbg/ - Homebrew and Hacking General - "/vg/ - Video Game Generals" is 4chan's imageboard dedicated to the discussion of PC and console video games.
Ctrl+F the tripcote " !t.3fxzeyWo" for all of his six posts on the matter. I'll copy paste them here though.

Processor in the doc? So what we are just talking upscaling a rasterized frame before it hits the tv? Ehhhhh.... I really dont see nintendo looking at a thunderbolt-esque solution, so what else could it be?
 

RennanNT

Member
Dec 2, 2020
593
I've scrolled back the last few pages but hasn't seen it posted yet. The first actual Switch revision details have potentially been detailed by known engineer/hacker SciresM on 4Chan.
Aula was mentioned earlier in this thread and speculated to be the AR headset used in the Mario Kart Ride.

Does anyone have an insight if these new info disproves or corroborate with that theory?
 

brainchild

Independent Developer
Verified
Nov 25, 2017
9,480
Learning video editing and writing detailed tech scripts as well as getting the right style. I kind of want to have a bunch of videos ready to upload, so I can make it pretty regular, but yeah I'll let you guys know.

If you want any tips, feel free to hit me up. I remember when I first started doing tech analysis videos for GameXplain, I was not prepared for the sheer amount of work involved. Eventually, I came up with a production outline that gave me a bit more focus, so I strongly recommend that you do something similar so that you're not overwhelmed.

Good luck with your endeavor!
 

Pokemaniac

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,944
I've scrolled back the last few pages but hasn't seen it posted yet. The first actual Switch revision details have potentially been detailed by known engineer/hacker SciresM on 4Chan. Anyone can feel free to make a thread on it or repost them since it's actually significant news with a trustworthy source.

/vg/ - /hbg/ - Homebrew and Hacking General - Video Game Generals - 4chan

/hbg/ - Homebrew and Hacking General - "/vg/ - Video Game Generals" is 4chan's imageboard dedicated to the discussion of PC and console video games.
Ctrl+F the tripcote " !t.3fxzeyWo" for all of his six posts on the matter. I'll copy paste them here though.
The screen better not actually be OLED. That screen technology has no business being in a handheld.

I still think Mariko is a pretty huge red flag on the "is this a model that's ever actually releasing?" question, though, especially with no actual evidence of higher performance modes.
Aren't those supposed to be pretty easily crackable?
 

ILikeFeet

DF Deet Master
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
61,987
if it's actually an overclocked mariko, then I don't expect anything to be 4K. hell, I probably wouldn't expect 1440p
 

z0m3le

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,418
The real problem with Aula is that we don't know if it will release or is just another in development device for Switch like half the other projects. 4K and Realtek SoC, this product exists and doesn't really make a lot of sense for a hybrid, it would have to be housed in the dock and basically upscale the Mariko output into 4K, but doesn't require input from developers like Bloomberg reported.

We can try to speculate around this type of device, but I find any sort of discussion around it, more or less pointless, it's basically an mcable type solution from what I can tell, and Nintendo still has to take TSMC's price hike and no volume discount for this to exist, they will also be forced off 12nm by 2023, which leaves this as a pretty dead end solution I think.

We should actually know about this becoming a final product in the next couple months though, Foxconn will leak it, they always do.
 

Onix555

Member
Apr 23, 2019
3,381
UK
I have some Marsailles upscalers which plug in the back of the Dock, sounds very similar to something like that.

For reference they work ok I guess, some games look better than others. Doom looks really nice on it.
 
Apr 11, 2020
1,235
Maxwell had both 64 Cuda core SM and 128 Cuda core SM, so the "2 SM" for Tegra X1 is not an accurate measurement of that GPU, as it is a weird 128 Cuda core SM, TX2 which has the same GPU but via Pascal architecture is a much more standard 4SM configuration, and is more accurate to the conversation I'm going to have here.

Xavier has 512 Cuda cores, it's 89mm² (for gpu) with 8SM. What I've been suggesting is a smaller GPU, more matching the Tegra NX, which disables 2 of those SM and offers 384 Cuda cores for fp32 and 384 Int ALUs. Ampere takes those 384 Int ALUs and adds Cuda core Fp32 function to them, thus it has twice the Cuda cores per SM without doubling the SM logic like Tegra X1 did, this is why 6SM Ampere is only really a ~50% increase to the Tegra X1 GPU in terms of SM logic; because Ampere doubled the Cuda cores per SM, we are talking about 768 Cuda cores, but because they don't double the logic of the SM, it's theoretical performance (flops) is bloated unreasonably, offering less performance per flop than Maxwell, though it doubles the flops per clock per Cuda core.

Numbers combine CPU and GPU transistors.
Transistor count for PS1 is 1 Million.
Transistor count for N64 is 4.6 Million.
Transistor count for Dreamcast is 13 Million.
Transistor count for PS2 is ~54 Million.
Transistor count for GCN is 73.5 Million.
Transistor count for Xbox is ~88 Million.
Transistor count for 360 is 315 Million.
Transistor count for PS3 is ~534 Million.
Transistor count for Wii U is ~1 Billion.
Transistor count for Switch is 2 Billion.
Transistor count for PS4 is ~5 Billion.
Transistor count for XB1X is 7 Billion.
Transistor count for PS5 is ~13 Billion.
Transistor count for XSX is 15.3 Billion.

Transistor count can loosely map performance through the console generations, it is no surprise that if Nintendo is targeting PS4 or 2.3*Switch performance, they need over twice the transistor count. Hopefully this post can be useful to future tech discussions, and is why I listed so many consoles.

I also wanted to point out my expectations are not really that optimistic, sure they are still great, but I think that has more to do with DLSS and moving from 20nm to 8nm, that is a huge jump when you realize that 20nm offers just over 16 Million transistors per mm, while 8ULP is over 60 Million transistors per mm, while also offering 3D transistors vs the flat transistors used on 20nm.
The main problem here is that the PS4/PS5 main chip is an APU with the CPU/GPU/DDR bus logic taking close to 80-90% of the chip die area while TX1 and Xavier are SOCs with CPU/GPU/DDR bus logic taking 50-60% of the die area. That's why a 80mm2 chip on 8 nm would hardly have a 6SM GPU that would take 50mm2 alone.
The screen better not actually be OLED. That screen technology has no business being in a handheld.

I still think Mariko is a pretty huge red flag on the "is this a model that's ever actually releasing?" question, though, especially with no actual evidence of higher performance modes.

Aren't those supposed to be pretty easily crackable?
There is plenty of 6-8" AMOLED screens that would be better than a mini-LED screen.
 

Dakhil

Member
Mar 26, 2019
4,459
Orange County, CA
There is plenty of 6-8" AMOLED screens that would be better than a mini-LED screen.
The problem is that OLED will eventually suffer from burn-in. Smartphone companies has used software to mitigate the risk of burn-in for smartphones with OLED touchscreens, but OLED touchscreens will still eventually suffer from burn-in due to the physical composition of OLED. That's the reason why I prefer Mini LED over OLED if Nintendo decides to shift away from LCDs.

On an unrelated note, the die shot of Cezanne has apparently been leaked online and die size is apparently estimated to be 175 mm², which is estimated to be roughly 10% larger than Renoir, which has a die size of 156 mm².
AMD-Cezanne-Die-Photo-VideoCardz.jpg
 
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