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Avitus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,902

Actually might just be the new Trello board now that I think about it.

at least Braddock posted this:
  • Update 2: Talked with the team today. Update 4.4 is looking good and on track for next week. We still need to get through Cert before locking the date, so we'll have another status check for the community on Monday, Sept 2, 2019.
 
OP
OP

iRAWRasaurus

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,729
]Any PS4 users having issues connecting online?

Edit: nevermind. Odd how Netflix worked but BFV didnt. Restarting my PS4 did the trick.
 
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elyetis

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,550
Except for games with cross-play, I'll never feel good about having to wait for console Cert to get a patch on the PC version, even more so for an already delayed content.
 
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Oct 27, 2017
6,960
Expect for games with cross-play, I'll never feel good about having to wait for console Cert to get a patch on the PC version, even more so for an already delayed content.


You might say that 8h or 12h is a lot, but I would say that it is largely irrelevant. Most developers only need the certification for content patches, the backend things like tweaking values, banning players, activating content, disabling content bypasses downloads/Sony. DICE has it too, but I don't think that Frostbyte is made with hotfixes in mind.

I have not heard another developer constantly rambling about "certification" as it is some kind of obstacle for announcing things. DICE wants to have this buffer concealed as "certification" to miss deadlines.
 

elyetis

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,550

You might say that 8h or 12h is a lot, but I would say that it is largely irrelevant. Most developers only need the certification for content patches, the backend things like tweaking values, banning players, activating content, disabling content bypasses downloads/Sony. DICE has it too, but I don't think that Frostbyte is made with hotfixes in mind.

I have not heard another developer constantly rambling about "certification" as it is some kind of obstacle for announcing things. DICE wants to have this buffer concealed as "certification" to miss deadlines.
I see, good to know.
 

Serpens007

Well, Tosca isn't for everyone
Moderator
Oct 31, 2017
8,124
Chile
Actually might just be the new Trello board now that I think about it.

That's what it is actually.

Hey, at least this week we have an interesting playlist: Axis Breakthrough. It's a mix of rounds of Breakthrough where the Germans are the attackers (so, Rotterdam, Panzerstorm, Twisted Steel, Arras, Devastation, Marita and Mercury).

It was pretty much what I've been wanting to play when I log in these days, but constantly can't becasue I'm past the maps I wanted
 

elyetis

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,550
I was gonna say a Trello board release is quite the underwhelming news, then I realized that it didn't even actually make it for today ?
 

Forerunner

Resetufologist
The Fallen
Oct 30, 2017
14,567
IpDAgCi.gif
 

Serpens007

Well, Tosca isn't for everyone
Moderator
Oct 31, 2017
8,124
Chile
Well, I hope then that the next Battlefield isn't out in 2020, because Battlefront 2 has been a two years without a sequel as it gets better. If the next Battlefield is out next year, then I don't have confidence in using BFII as an example
 

PeskyToaster

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,312
If we see a Battlefield Next in 2020 I will be so disappointed. CoD only pulls off the once a year thing because they have like 30 studios working on it and even that train has derailed for the 2020 release.
 
Oct 26, 2017
17,360
I think the lesson here is live service games are garbage, at this point I'd rather segment the community than be delivered underwhelming content.
 

elyetis

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,550
Who would've thought they would use Battlefront II as an example on how to support a game post launch....... lol
Imagine if we actually discovered that people were pulled of from bfV so they could recovers Battlefront II and it's one of the ( numerous ) reason the game is in that state.
Soon like Al SOON dan
Given it apparently didn't even make it this week, it sure seems so. All kind of amazing that even that would get delayed.
 

Avitus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,902
I think the lesson here is live service games are garbage, at this point I'd rather segment the community than be delivered underwhelming content.

The problem is that EA is the most motivated by profit of the large publishers and the least likely to stick with something they think has limited MTX upside. Remember that Apex was made largely in secret and kept away from EA for fear they'd fuck it up. What happened during the first big MTX event? Colossal fuckup.

EA is not interested in games that have 5-10 year long lifespans and big communities. Not when they sell yearly sports titles like hotcakes. The idea of building the Battlefield community up again is lost on them. DICE will never be given the resources to do it. What's worse is that, now that Battlefront has been added into the picture, Battlefield will always be second fiddle because it's EA's own property. They have to do right by the Star Wars license to keep it and to keep Disney happy, so Battlefront will remain the priority.

Dark days ahead. Although that rumor that BC3 is PS5 exclusive on consoles would be wild AF.
 

elyetis

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,550
Who else think that
We're taking a step back to improve the quality of BFV, and as a result making needed changes to our roadmap.
Is the first step to a delayed/late Pacific release, while trying to pin it as some kind of positive move for the sake of the game ?

Thought to be fair their ( lack of ) communication about it at gamescon was already making me think that is won't even make it in October.

Maybe I'm ready too much into it and that's just their excuse for not having a freaking trello ready in time.
 

Avitus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,902
Who else think that

Is the first step to a delayed/late Pacific release, while trying to pin it as some kind of positive move for the sake of the game ?

Thought to be fair their ( lack of ) communication about it at gamescon was already making me think that is won't even make it in October.

Maybe I'm ready too much into it and that's just their excuse for not having a freaking trello ready in time.

Maybe the Trello board thing really highlighted the absurd amount of work they have to do before dropping meaningful new content. If they want to pause active development and pull an "Operation Health" equivalent then I am all for that.

If the Pacific is really the last chance for the game to get traction again then it's imperative that they fix as many bugs as possible before it drops, even if it gets delayed.
 

elyetis

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,550
Maybe the Trello board thing really highlighted the absurd amount of work they have to do before dropping meaningful new content. If they want to pause active development and pull an "Operation Health" equivalent then I am all for that.

If the Pacific is really the last chance for the game to get traction again then it's imperative that they fix as many bugs as possible before it drops, even if it gets delayed.
I saw people speak about an "Operation Health" and what it meant for Rainbow Six a few month ago on reddit. While I understand the intent, I don't see how that can work on a licence we expect to see a sequel in the next 14(?)ish month, in a game already content starved. Games need a far bigger lifetime to allow something like "either content or bugfix QoL".
Ubisoft did it for a game which released before battlefield 1 and will probably still be alive a kicking when the next battlefield release.
 

Avitus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,902
I saw people speak about an "Operation Health" and what it meant for Rainbow Six a few month ago on reddit. While I understand the intent, I don't see how that can work on a licence we expect to see a sequel in the next 14(?)ish month, in a game already content starved. Games need a far bigger lifetime to allow something like "either content or bugfix QoL".
Ubisoft did it for a game which released before battlefield 1 and will probably still be alive a kicking when the next battlefield release.

How many times does EA realistically want to fund re-imagining the wheel? Aka how many times are we going to make WW2 games?

It'd be much easier to pivot to a live service. R6 siege was garbage when it came out but they healed that game and nursed it to where it is now, probably second only to CSGO in the true shooter scene. A live service team handles it for a fraction of the cost of a full development cycle at Ubi.

The problem is that EA doesn't care. Even if they did, I'm not sure the studio exists to pull it off anymore.

Stop making overly idealistic assumptions about how our players actually play. There is a giant disconnect between the ideal leadership chases and how the game works out in the wild. Continuing to design games around some fantasy will only end in failure.

Cronyism and nepotism are huge problems. The previous generation of leadership is reaching retirement age and began passing the torch over a year ago. How they selected the current generation is not clear but it isn't working at all. What features make it into the game or get development time isn't dependent on how they'll improve the game but on who has your back. This is especially troublesome because current leadership, or rather the couple of people at the top, is obsessed with executing their vision at the expense of everything else. Being a visionary isn't necessarily a bad thing but they have failed to inspire confidence in that vision. Instead, they did the exact opposite by forbidding negative criticism and discussion as their way of addressing low morale and skepticism. This, among leadership's other consistently backwards ideas and policies, just reduced morale more and more. The worst part was that it wasn't hard to see why their vision wouldn't work. Leadership was just stubborn and refused to back down or admit that they're wrong even after negative reception from nearly all parts of the process. Instead, leadership chased their vision even harder. Leadership's drive to fulfill their vision despite objections from multiple departments and people was disheartening and they were also very sensitive to anyone who didn't "get with the program."

 

elyetis

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,550
How many times does EA realistically want to fund re-imagining the wheel? Aka how many times are we going to make WW2 games?

It'd be much easier to pivot to a live service. R6 siege was garbage when it came out but they healed that game and nursed it to where it is now, probably second only to CSGO in the true shooter scene. A live service team handles it for a fraction of the cost of a full development cycle at Ubi.
The dream of seeing historical battlefield stay alive for years and years thanks to a proper live service. In parallel of doing the same for the modern setting.

I don't even like thoses games, but the long time commitment, regardless of initial success, Ubisoft had with R6 and For Honor is nothing short of amazing. One can only dream of seeing a licence he love, getting that kind of support.
 

Forerunner

Resetufologist
The Fallen
Oct 30, 2017
14,567
Apologies are nice and all, but at this point in the game, talk is cheap. They have continuously fucked things over. This hasn't been a one type deal. Just put up or shut up. I don't need a Trello board or some other application. Just deliver what you say you're going to, it's that simple
 

Deleted member 55421

User requested account closure
Banned
Mar 29, 2019
612
Who would've thought they would use Battlefront II as an example on how to support a game post launch....... lol

lol to be fair, the updates are super interesting in that game now and having a consistent flow of them will make people wanna jump back in. That being said, they've completely missed the point which to me, is worrisome.

As a studio, they should never aim to be like another one of their failures. Who thinks like that, honestly... To me, I get the feeling that this studios culture is just wrong somehow. It doesn't make any sense that most games you launch, do so in a manner that's consistently broken.

People on this board praise BF4 as if it's this amazing product, and eventually it was. But at the launch of that game, it was a god damn disaster that took months to fix. This is not a good example to base yourself on.

I mean shit, when is the last time these guys launched something that wasn't problematic at the time of its launch?

Don't use Battlefront2 as an example of motivation. Use Apex. A polished successful product that although not perfect, has only improved consistently.
 

Sheepinator

Member
Jul 25, 2018
27,936
lol to be fair, the updates are super interesting in that game now and having a consistent flow of them will make people wanna jump back in. That being said, they've completely missed the point which to me, is worrisome.

As a studio, they should never aim to be like another one of their failures. Who thinks like that, honestly... To me, I get the feeling that this studios culture is just wrong somehow. It doesn't make any sense that most games you launch, do so in a manner that's consistently broken.

People on this board praise BF4 as if it's this amazing product, and eventually it was. But at the launch of that game, it was a god damn disaster that took months to fix. This is not a good example to base yourself on.

I mean shit, when is the last time these guys launched something that wasn't problematic at the time of its launch?

Don't use Battlefront2 as an example of motivation. Use Apex. A polished successful product that although not perfect, has only improved consistently.
Apex is a different developer with a different engine. If you mean in general terms that's a good example to follow, sure, but I wouldn't count on it happening.
 

Forerunner

Resetufologist
The Fallen
Oct 30, 2017
14,567
BF 1 is a good example. There was pretty much nothing wrong with it. Sure, you might not have liked the setting or there could been some balancing issues. However, the game was fine. It didn't have any major issues and it had content. It also had decent additional content and support later. However, that's what happens when a game has guaranteed revenue (paid DLC). With GaaS, you are relying on cosmetics. You don't know how some players are going to react to that. Sure, potentially you could make a lot more money than paid DLC, however, it could backfire and the opposite could happen.

Personally, just give me paid DLC. I'd rather have paid quality content than drip fed low quality free content.
 

EatChildren

Wonder from Down Under
Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,029
I prefer Premium for similar reasons to Forerunner, on the basis it has worked in the past.

The problem with GaaS is finding a way to ensure a revenue stream to support post launch support and integrating it into your game in such a way that provides incentive to players. This is a really difficult thing to accomplish and it's why so many big publishers hire marketing/gambling/psychological specialists to explore the most effective, manipulative, and seamless means to integrate appealing microtransaction content into a game while also retaining players. You want a lot of people playing, a lot of people watching, and a lot of people buying shit.

I said this way, way back when Battlefield V was very first announced and my suspicion was DICE/EA had this weirdly ambiguous direction to capitalise on the Twitch streaming phenomena. In all early interviews and press releases they repeated this who concept of having a "squad" that you'd build and advance through World War II, unlocking new gear and outfits, customising, and forming an identity and bond with your team. The half hearted emphasis on squad play falls right into the popularisation of modern streams hitting up stuff like Fortnight and PUBG. Imagine if, in EA/DICE's fantasy world, people were playing Battlefield the same way? As in, booting it up and playing with their characters made to look like their style with all kinds of gear and accessories and their own goofy little personalised squad that they Stream with mates and all that. The idea is that this imprinted digital identity expressed in the game becomes appealing to others, who buy the game and make their own characters and squad, and begin their own journey of unlocking and purchasing customisable content. Fortnight and PUBG make an absolute fortune doing exactly this, creating a culture of dress-ups and inclusivity only by having a unique character.

It just all fell apart because the fundamental framework and market for Battlefield is one that does not support or give two shits about this kind of content. Nobody really cares about customising your character and imprinting a unique virtual identity onto your Generic Assault Soldier. Following the course of World War II with events and changes and climatic moments is only as effective as the content delivered, just like how it works so well with Fortnight. Battlefield V has done jack shit of value with Tides of War because the support framework was never there.

It really falls in line with that interview posted above citing disconnect between visionary leaders and feedback from the team and everyone else, the former pushing to meet some idea of a game that isn't necessarily any good. And that's Battlefield V's problem. I don't for a second doubt the leadership team had an idea for Battlefield that wasn't inherently awful but still probably not appropriate for the series and pushed excessively for it despite the rest of the game not forming around these ideas, by both virtue of being a Battlefield title and lack of coherency between vision and execution. Battlefield V has such a muddled identity, worsened by such poor implementation of features. I don't know the numbers, but I seriously doubt the microtransactions implemented as they are have pulled in anywhere near as much money as Premium. Some people care, but do most really want to buy BATTLECOINS to play as unique soldiers or a gun skin that's a bit shinier or has some grass on it? Is this what people want or think of when they play Battlefield? Who cares if you even have this gear. Battlefield V does such a poor job making it presentable or on display that there's no real energy to the customisation anyway.

DICE needs a massive fucking overhaul.
 

Avitus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,902
I would prefer a hybrid system where the ToW Chapter content is sold in a battle pass, a lesser version is given for free, and maps/modes/weapons remain available to all users.

No content should be 'time locked', but rather sold in miniature campaigns that can be completed at your leisure so long as you paid for the campaign. World of Warships, despite being a doozy of a whale oriented game, actually got this right when they started to implement more long term, grindy content. There are some good ideas out there floating around F2P games that have largely dealt with how to monetize development without pissing off different tastes. EA should maybe take a gander at that instead of diving headfirst into stupidity like Iron Crown.

I do not want to see shoddy outsourced work and I definitely do not want to see profit motive return to weapon balance. There are way, way better options inbetween premium and F2P.

I said this way, way back when Battlefield V was very first announced and my suspicion was DICE/EA had this weirdly ambiguous direction to capitalise on the Twitch streaming phenomena. In all early interviews and press releases they repeated this who concept of having a "squad" that you'd build and advance through World War II, unlocking new gear and outfits, customising, and forming an identity and bond with your team. The half hearted emphasis on squad play falls right into the popularisation of modern streams hitting up stuff like Fortnight and PUBG. Imagine if, in EA/DICE's fantasy world, people were playing Battlefield the same way? As in, booting it up and playing with their characters made to look like their style with all kinds of gear and accessories and their own goofy little personalised squad that they Stream with mates and all that. The idea is that this imprinted digital identity expressed in the game becomes appealing to others, who buy the game and make their own characters and squad, and begin their own journey of unlocking and purchasing customisable content. Fortnight and PUBG make an absolute fortune doing exactly this, creating a culture of dress-ups and inclusivity only by having a unique character.

People are already doing this on a small scale:

DICE just has made no effort to tap into it. Just a super fucking terrible rotational store with a few items in it.

1. Everything available for CC should be in menus available for CC 24/7
2. DICE should create more thematic mix/match sets available for CC and highlight them in the store, possibly with bespoke camo colors or something similar.
3. Everything for Boins should just be in one big store section 24/7
 
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Sheepinator

Member
Jul 25, 2018
27,936
Premium is preferable for those of us who want it, but there aren't enough buyers to justify splitting the population. And in typical EA fashion, once the metrics no longer looked favorable for this game, they seem to have slashed support, which is of course a self-fulfilling situation.
 

Forerunner

Resetufologist
The Fallen
Oct 30, 2017
14,567
I don't buy the splitting the player base anymore because those players aren't long term players. For instance, if you buy the DLCs you're planning on staying for the long haul or at least coming back when the DLCs are released because you are already invested in the game. The players that don't buy the DLCs don't come back. The casual player rarely comes back after they drop a game. What makes you think they are going to remember your game months later to come back and download a ton of data to play it? They aren't. They moved on to the next big and best thing. Firestorm is a perfect example, how many players did that bring back and retain? Not a noticeable amount. Players have already forgotten about it.

Players who like the game are going to buy the DLCs. If they don't, they aren't going to buy it, making it free isn't going to change their mind and they aren't going to come running back to play it. For newer players later in a game's life cycle just do a GOTY edition that packages in all the DLCs for them.
 

Secondspace

Member
Dec 12, 2017
378
Imagine if there had been premium and there had still been the same mess.

I think the concern about splitting the players might have been caused by EA Access. I'd bet they had difficulty making any more money from the people who joined the game that way, Premium is too big an investment if you join that late, cosmetics and a ready supply of free maps probably seemed like a better bet.
 

elyetis

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,550
I don't like the idea of encouraging a Premium come back, it make it seems like it's a better solution than cosmetics MTX when the current failure isn't on the economic model they choose, but entirely on them.
You can't say that the game lack content because selling cosmetics can't make enough money to make it a good alternative, when the game only got it's Microtransactions in April, in very limited quantity/variety, while the past 6 month were already about battlefield V being :
- a broken mess of thing like instant kill bullet
- lacking content
- stupid ass decision like the ttk rebalance
- shity UI
etc...

I won't argue for making their next game twice as expensive, just because they can't be assed to make a decent attempt at a better model. We should ask them to improve, not bargain for it.
 

Forerunner

Resetufologist
The Fallen
Oct 30, 2017
14,567
I just don't think DICE can support GaaS titles. Let's look at something like Fortnite or even the Division 2. That's all they do. The majority of their resources just goes to those titles. So it allows them to constantly pump out new content all the time and support the game. Then you look at DICE. They have BF 2, BF V, and the rumored BC 3. Plus they might have some other project not BF related. You can't sustain all of these through GaaS like other companies can. It's more profitable for EA to just constantly shit out new titles each year than supporting older ones for the long run. They talk about how well BF 2 has been supported. In reality it hasn't, it just looks great because BF V is just a fucking mess. EA support is a joke compared to companies like Blizzard or Ubisoft. It's one of the reasons I love Blizzard games. They support their games, even the failed ones like HotS.

I just believe BF is better with paid DLC. The paid DLC forces them to release content. GaaS is just like whatever we'll get to it when we can because we're stretched too thin.
 

elyetis

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,550
I don't know, I just feel like it's giving them an easy out, almost rewarding them for fucking up.

The state in which bfV was released had little to do with how the game is monetized, it's just EA being EA, they needed that 2018 release. Heck, Dice would maybe even argue that having to release so much content for bf1 while having no room to delay bfV is the reason the content is was it is. ( after all bf1 had "too many maps" ... lol )
On the content side of things, if it wasn't for wasted ressource on both firestorm ( "worth 4-5 maps of work" ) and 5v5, one can only imagine how close to previous battlefield, V could have been. And it's hard to know if they wouldn't have made the same mistake in a premium pass.
 

Sheepinator

Member
Jul 25, 2018
27,936
I don't like the idea of encouraging a Premium come back, it make it seems like it's a better solution than cosmetics MTX when the current failure isn't on the economic model they choose, but entirely on them.
You can't say that the game lack content because selling cosmetics can't make enough money to make it a good alternative, when the game only got it's Microtransactions in April, in very limited quantity/variety, while the past 6 month were already about battlefield V being :
- a broken mess of thing like instant kill bullet
- lacking content
- stupid ass decision like the ttk rebalance
- shity UI
etc...

I won't argue for making their next game twice as expensive, just because they can't be assed to make a decent attempt at a better model. We should ask them to improve, not bargain for it.
That's all very valid. And it seems like the execs say to themselves, it's not making enough recurring revenue so slash the support, but it's not making enough recurring revenue due to developer mistakes of which your list is the tip of the iceberg. Other mistakes are they want to sell outfits, but they don't take advantage of opportunities to show off your outfit, and vehicle skin choices would constantly reset, etc.
 

EatChildren

Wonder from Down Under
Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,029
As much as I've liked the Premium model, it wouldn't have saved Battlefield V from its dogshit map design, awful vehicle balance, incoherent vision, and woeful launch window (and beyond) bugs.

I really hope another publisher/dev combo steps up to the stage in the face of DICE/EA's fuckups and tries their own hand at a Battlefield-like game to put pressure on the latter studios to get their fucking shit together.
 

PintSizedSlasher

The Wise Ones
Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,366
The Netherlands
As much as I've liked the Premium model, it wouldn't have saved Battlefield V from its dogshit map design, awful vehicle balance, incoherent vision, and woeful launch window (and beyond) bugs.

I really hope another publisher/dev combo steps up to the stage in the face of DICE/EA's fuckups and tries their own hand at a Battlefield-like game to put pressure on the latter studios to get their fucking shit together.

Two more weeks and we can see how CoD handles a larger mode...(if that mode is in the beta...)
I didn't play the alpha, but the general consensus is that the gunplay is stellar, so if they can combine that with good maps/large modes, we might have a real competitor...
 

No Depth

Member
Oct 27, 2017
18,263
Oh, oh dear..

I just built a new pc and as a huge classic BF fan(esp. 1942 and BF2) I was looking for some thoughts on BFV. Excited to even see some RTX nonsense.

Then I jump into this thread and read this last page. I don't know what issues exactly are with the game, but this is one of the most dire and depressing OT I think I've seen from gaming side...

Maybe I'll not buy the game?
 

ChippyTurtle

Banned
Oct 13, 2018
4,773
1. GaaS as a model isn't a lever game developers/publishers can pull for easy money, it requires investment, time, good management and planning, on a continuous cycle with not a lot of downtime, seen with Fortnite, R6:S where multiple months of downtime had to be placed to revamp to better release content.

2. The way BFV came out, indicates to me either DICE/EA did not realize what GaaS actually meant, and went for the (drip fed content GaaS so we can slowly finish the game) or that they cut the game loose for one reason or another and GaaS is designed to prevent loss of confidence while shifting the majority of DICE to other projects.

3. The GaaS in BFV, as someone else stated is incomplete as well. We still don't have vehicle skins. It's been months. What the hell is wrong with DICE.

4. At this point if you were to query a BF player with "unrealistic clothes and a complete game" vs this hunk of garbage, not a single person would choose what we have now. Remember how "we" were complaining about women and claws? Put a poll in reddit asking what you would prefer, 100% people want a game that works vs what we have even if it had claws.

It's absurd. DICE wants us to sit here and be chumps. I paid $60 cause I believed in their game, cause fuck the haters but what a waste of money.

Dice is pissing good GaaS money down the toilet. Maybe the cost of switching to Frostbyte really is worth it in licensing but I really doubt it does now.
 
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