• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
  • We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.
Status
Not open for further replies.

Cornbread78

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,850
Northeast USA
I want to make a thread about Battlefront 2's, in my opinion, insanely misguided singleplayer campaign. Forget the fact it starts with a goddamn insta-fail stealth bit, I'd like to talk about tone and the campaign's angle.

This concerns the trial missions only, but I feel they're problematic enough on their own to warrant this discussion. You spend the first hours of it playing as an Empire special ops soldier. As the Empire, you're mowing down hordes of Rebels and talking to your squadmates about the Rebellion being 'fueled by hate' and how they're monsters for destroying the Death Star. Meanwhile, the game presents this to you without any reservations. Shooting dozens of rebels is presented in the same matter-of-fact way that it would be if it were opposite. The game, in the opening hours, keeps telling you to murder the good guys. I kept getting flashbacks to 'No Russian'.

I'm sure the game will pull the protagonist over to the light side eventually, but for now...what the hell? Where Wolfenstein is scoring points with their marketing and topical treatment of extreme right-wing views, EA and Battlefront seem to be completely tone-deaf. It's wholly uncomfortable playing as, essentially, fully converted Space Nazis in this thing.

Now, any topic can be perfectly fine if done well. A comedy about Hitler, a drama about a neo-nazi, or a game where you play as Vader's badass lackey. There's room for all of that. I imagine many of you think this campaign will be refreshing, because it allows you to cut down those goody two shoes Rebels. But BF II doesn't make it feel satisfying at all. There's no interesting or enlightening angle to any of this. No new insights or fresh takes. All the game has presented in the first two hours is 'Space Nazis are just like the Rebels! Many sides!' Who the fuck asked for that? Does anyone want that from a Star Wars campaign?

Of course, these are only the opening missions. The full campaign will likely feature redemption and all that predictable nonsense. However, that still adds up to hours of the game asking you to straight up murder the good guys as a Special Ops Space Nazi.

Also, these are the missions EA is using to hype up the full release. The missions everyone with an Origin Access/EA Access pass will play.

I'm not saying EA is endorsing Nazism, and I'm not saying the campaign is shit for this reason (it's pretty awful on its own merits, but that's a story for another thread). But jesus, TIMING MATTERS. Of all the stories to tell in this universe, DICE/EA went with one about a badass space Nazi in a time where Nazis are very real again.

And don't give me that shit about how the Empire isn't Space Nazis.

main-qimg-3c0dc3c63edcbe195a882c19fc4dbfdb-c


The Empire = Space Nazis. Please don't come in here and argue otherwise.


Check some of it out yourself right here:

https://youtu.be/Ww6Bdo-uKGc



*Thread was created for contributor/member "GinoFelino" as part of Adopt a User Program. If you any specific questions or comments in regards to the content of the OP, please reach out to him directly: https://www.resetera.com/members/ginofelino.15761/
 
Last edited:
Oct 27, 2017
334
The Ether
I have no issues with killing the good guys in fantasy. It's in real life that it's problematic.

Whether it's good or not is up for debate, but it has every right to exist.
 

rebelcrusader

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,833
UMM

The rebels destroying the stability of the empire and the people that live there is a major theme of the expanded star wars universe

Also...picture is of the first order..not the empire...you obviously don't know alot about star wars
 

Deleted member 135

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,682
That picture is the First Order, not the Empire. The Empire isn't strictly Space Nazis, the First Order is though.

Also it's fantasy, not real. It's not like you are playing as a literal Nazi in space like if you were playing as Melakon from the TOS episode Patterns of Force.
 

WillyFive

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
6,980
I didn't like the decision because playing as the Imperials/Republic/stormtrooper guy in Star Wars games is completely overdone, we need more Star Wars games where you play as the other guys for once.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,767
That picture is the First Order, not the Empire. The Empire isn't strictly Space Nazis, the First Order is though.

It can also be argued that they are not "Nazi's" as well, ideologically. Fascists, absolutely, but sharing complete ideology, i.e., rounding up a specific group of people/aliens for total genocide and promoting an 'Aryan race' has yet to be displayed if at all ever.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,799
I haven't played the trial missions yet, but I think the overall concept of playing as an Imperial is fine so long as there's a reveal that the Empire has been pulling the wool over its subjects' eyes, which then causes the protagonist to rethink her pro-Empire position and flip to the Rebellion. And I'm 99.9% sure that's how this game is going to play out.

That photo is the First Order, not the Empire.

Empire fanboys tho, it's close enough.

It can also be argued that they are not "Nazi's" as well, ideologically. Fascists, absolutely, but sharing complete ideology, i.e., rounding up a specific group of people/aliens for total genocide and promoting an 'Aryan race' has yet to be displayed if at all ever.

If you look at the Original Trilogy, the Empire does not have any aliens within its ranks. Heck, it doesn't even have minorities; they're all white dudes. This is in contrast to the multi-cultural and diverse Rebel ranks (admittedly, there aren't a great number of examples of this, but they do exist). I think Lucas was clearly going for the racial/species purity angle with the Empire, even though there is no evidence of genocide towards alien species.
 

GinoFelino

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,234
Are you guys seriously bringing up the fact that it's a picture of the First Order as some sort of counter-argument here?

Please :(
 

orlock

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,286
i understand where you're coming from, but im gonna go out on a limb and assume the central expression of the campaign is less "let's revel in being bad guys & murder those lovable rebels because im an irredeemable space Nazi" & more "OH i was born & raised within the Empire lets see how my character develops in this time of great turmoil".

like, i mean.

i dont give EA the credit to either 1) have the balls to craft a single player campaign for one of it's big brand game-os where you are an actual Space Nazi or 2) not go for the admittedly low-hanging fruit of "character starts on the side of the antagonists & SURPRISE joins the good guys or becomes neutral over the course of the story"
 

PaypayTR

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,108
If first order are space nazis then how come finn and asian girl are in general in Last Jedi?
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,713
The Empire has been around for decades, and is full of interesting characters, motivations, and perspectives. Yes, they're racist oppressors. But Star Wars isn't an ultra-violent, ultra-serious universe. It's okay for a fiction to explore the bad guy's point of view sometimes, and this story obviously wasn't written with the prediction of today's political climate in mind.
 

Shingi_70

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,782
It's sort of the problem your going to have with Star Wars tbh. A lot of the new EU is fleshing out the empire and fascist aspects. Rae Sloane is my favorite new star was character and she's obviously a Nazi.
 

Einchy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
42,659
Trying to equate "both sides" when talking about space baddies is more problametic than playing as the bad guy in a Star Wars game. We have actual nazis right now that trying to equate them with guys who run around with laser swords seems almost insulting.
 

Raijinto

self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
10,091
I am debating dropping a few quid to get EA Access and try this out for myself. Depends on what I'm doing on the weekend I guess, but I'll be 100% sure to weigh in with my thoughts come the full release, I really, really hope the single campaign is up to scrutiny. I agree that the timing and the tone here seem misguided at best.
 

Deleted member 135

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,682
It can also be argued that they are not "Nazi's" as well, ideologically. Fascists, absolutely, but sharing complete ideology, i.e., rounding up a specific group of people/aliens for total genocide and promoting an 'Aryan race' has yet to be displayed if at all ever.
As far as I can remember from canon the human centrism is only de facto in the Imperial government and military but not a de jure thing in the Empire.
 

Crayon

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,580
This makes me think of Panzer General. I thought it was weird to be the Nazis, but everyone else seemed fine so I just rolled with it.
 

Abriael

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,605
Milano - Italy
Playing the bad guys... totally a terrible, horrible, unacceptable narrative device...

Wait. it's actually great.

You probably need to learn to treat fiction as fiction. There are no "nazi" in Star Wars: Battlefront II. There are troops of the Galactic Empire, a fictional political and military entity conceived within a fictional world.

And it's an entirely welcome change of pace from playing the ragtag rebel.
 

NSA

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
3,892
The Empire has been around for decades, and is full of interesting characters, motivations, and perspectives. Yes, they're racist oppressors. But Star Wars isn't an ultra-violent, ultra-serious universe. It's okay for a fiction to explore the bad guy's point of view sometimes, and this story obviously wasn't written with the prediction of today's political climate in mind.

Wouldn't they be more specieist? Specieiest. Specist? Instead of racist? Same thing basically but they seemed to prefer humans over everyone else.
 

Sygma

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
954
So you re saying that you re uncomfortable playing bad guys ? because that's kinda the main goal here
 

Breeze

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
98
People that call fiction problematic and link it with real life events are problematic.
I want to think that people can decide for themselves if they want to be a nazi in real life or not. Fiction won't help or stop that.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,275
Canada
You're playing as the bad side... Thats usually how these things go.

The Empire isnt gonna praise the Rebels as some upstanding and righteous people. Its propaganda and brainwashing. Wolfenstein 2 does the same thing where the Nazis act like they're the good guys while painting Blazkowicz as the worst terrorist ever.
 

Deleted member 135

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,682
Are you guys seriously bringing up the fact that it's a picture of the First Order as some sort of counter-argument here?

Please :(
If you understood the new canon it is a counter-argument. The First Order is the worst of the Empire concentrated and distilled to pure evil. The Emperor's evil didn't really filter down to the lower echelons of the Imperial government and military whereas it permeates and feeds the First Order.
 

GinoFelino

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,234
Trying to equate "both sides" when talking about space baddies is more problametic than playing as the bad guy in a Star Wars game. We have actual nazis right now that trying to equate them with guys who run around with laser swords seems almost insulting.
It's about the type of story you want to tell, knowing that actual Nazis are out there in the open again.

You literally can't ignore the real world and current events when telling a story. All media is political and politically loaded.

Of course, not knowing where this is going means we can't judge this thing as a whole just yet. But these opening missions are very uncomfortable, and the game doesn't acknowledge that for a second.
 

fushi

Member
Oct 26, 2017
272
This thread does a fairly poor job in communicating why this part of the game is "problematic" and "tone-deaf" and where the "two sides!" bit comes in. What you are describing just sounds like a bland SP campaign and not much else.

Edit: Okay, more posts appeared while I typed this out. It still seems like you expect the game to be as politically loaded as you are.
 

Dynamite Cop

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,002
California
Wait, so this complaint is being made after only playing the trial missions? At least play through the entire campaign to see if the tone shifts any..
 

Serene

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
52,536
Ignoring the idea that at some point the protagonist might come to realize they were being lied to is really dumb because it's possible context that rationalizes things.

If the player character (and by extent the AI companions) were in storyline raised their whole lives to think that they were the right side, and then someone (in this case the Rebels) comes in and tries to destroy their way of life, it's not unreasonable nor unexpected that they would retaliate. It's not a matter of supporting the cause, it's a matter of you feeling like your life is being threatened. It's only once the ulterior motives are known that the character's reactions really matter in terms of a justification of those actions.

Now, if there is a scene where the main character is doing all these hateful, racist things or is audience to them and does not react negatively, then yeah I could see your argument. But as it stands with how you describe it, it's a non-issue.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.