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Horse Armour

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
89
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45232147

A Muslim couple have been denied Swiss citizenship after they refused to shake hands with people of the opposite sex during their interview, officials say.

They confirmed the decision on Friday, further citing the couple's failure to integrate and respect gender equality.

The couple, interviewed months ago, also struggled to answer questions by members of the opposite sex.

The Swiss authorities said aspiring citizens must be well integrated into the Swiss community and demonstrate an attachment to Switzerland, its institutions and a respect for the Swiss legal order.

They would not reveal specifics about the couple, who local media said were North African, but confirmed they felt the couple had failed to meet citizenship criteria when they applied in the city of Lausanne.

The mayor of Lausanne, Gregoire Junod, told news agency AFP freedom of religion was enshrined in local laws but "religious practice does not fall outside the law."

This not the first time refused handshakes have stirred controversy in Switzerland.

In 2016, a Swiss school decided to exempt two Muslim boys from shaking both male and female teachers' hands after they refused to shake hands with a female teacher. The news caused uproar and led to the family's citizenship process being suspended.

In neighbouring France, an Algerian woman was denied citizenship after refusing to shake the hand of an official during her citizenship ceremony.
 

Arc

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,511
Well today I learned Muslims don't shake hands of the opposite gender.
 

Omar310

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,704
UK
To be honest, that's a bit dumb of them. Shaking someone's hand of the opposite sex isn't going to kill you nor is it going to invalidate your modesty or whatever. Definitely excessive on their part.
 

TuggSpeedman

Banned
Jul 23, 2018
89
When in Rome. You go another country you respect their way. Swedes shouldn't go to the Muslim countries and expect them to cater to them, either.
 

PinkSpider

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,923
There are social norms which need respecting and social norms which have no impact; I don't get the no shaking hands thing but it has no reflection on a persons worth and right to be in a country.
 

jelly

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
33,841
It's weird and definitely not something that should be encouraged but at the time same time maybe they'll come around like most people do eventually in a new place however you could argue not nipping it in the bud just causes problems later down the line and I think integration needs to be paramount these days, ignoring society cohesion is not good for anybody. Respecting cultures to a point. Probably not fun for new people but it's not like enforcing horrible values is the mission.
 

TuggSpeedman

Banned
Jul 23, 2018
89
User Banned (Permanent): Islamophobia. Junior account.
There are social norms which need respecting and social norms which have no impact; I don't get the no shaking hands thing but it has no reflection on a persons worth and right to be in a country.

The problem is inviting misogynistic,barbaric theology into your country. I dont want people that believe in the teachings of a sociopathic warlord pedophile living next door to me. Same as I dont want evangelicals by me.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,644
Shaking hands with a person of the opposite gender is considered "haram"(forbidden) in Islam if they're not a "Mahram".

This isn't a maddeningly sexist practice at all, nope. "No contact with someone of the opposite sex unless having sex with them would be illegal". It's like Mike Pence's happiest dream.
 

AnansiThePersona

Started a revolution but the mic was unplugged
Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,682
Shaking hands with a person of the opposite gender is considered "haram"(forbidden) in Islam if they're not a "Mahram".
Yeah, I didn't know this either. I don't think the more misogynistic aspects of Islam should be upheld in countries that don't wanna create an environment for those types of ideas.
 

Xando

Member
Oct 28, 2017
27,311
If you want to join a society you'll have to accept certain societal norms.
 

Mindfreak191

Member
Dec 2, 2017
4,767
Well today I learned Muslims don't shake hands of the opposite gender.
Not true.
Shaking hands with a person of the opposite gender is considered "haram"(forbidden) in Islam if they're not a "Mahram".
Again, completely false, I lived in a predominantly muslim country, talked to people who lived in Saudi Arabia, the only time a woman or man should refuse a handshake in Islam is if there's any sexual intent behind it, this "I'm not gonna shake hands with anyone the opposite sex" is borderline radical and invented years after the Qur'an was prophesized.
 

Fridge Freezer

Alt Account
Banned
Jul 21, 2018
260
How can you integrate if you cant do something as culturally normal as shake someones hand? Its simply not healthy and would impact other Swiss citizens in how they interact with them going forward.
 

Deleted member 20296

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
685
To be honest, that's a bit dumb of them. Shaking someone's hand of the opposite sex isn't going to kill you nor is it going to invalidate your modesty or whatever. Definitely excessive on their part.
Right which is why they aren't fit to live there.

Probably the correct decision it wouldn't have worked.

Swiss are kind of eyebrow raising in general with regards their tolerance of differences, but refusing to shake hands with other sex or talk to them has no place in western society
 
Oct 28, 2017
27,119

Heshinsi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,093
Well today I learned Muslims don't shake hands of the opposite gender.
Some Muslims. Most of the ones refusing to do so are likely those recently arriving from muslim countries. Muslims born and raised in the west don't have this particular hang up for the most part.
 

Cookie

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,258
I have no problem with this. In a few years I will be getting French citizenship. I don't expect to get it unless I have integrated myself into French society, citizenship shouldn't just be handed out to anyone who applies.
 

708

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,358
"No contact with someone of the opposite sex unless having sex with them would be illegal".
This isn't the case though. Muslims can shake hands with all "mahrams" and having sex with any of them (except husband/wife) is "haram".
And I'm not defending any of this (well except the part where you can't have sex with "mahrams". Having sex with those is looked badly (to say the least) upon in western cultures as well), I'm just explaining the reasoning.
 

Keikaku

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,769
People who have no respect for other genders have no right to live here. It's our way or highway.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,644
This isn't the case though. Muslims can shake hands with all "mahrams" and having sex with any of them (except husband/wife) is "haram".
And I'm not defending any of this (well except the part where you can't have sex with "mahrams". Having sex with those is looked badly (to say the least) upon in western cultures as well), I'm just explaining the reasoning.

If the link that you shared is correct, then a mahram is someone that having sex with or marrying would be considered forbidden. Family or someone nursed by the same woman as you.
 

Ac30

Member
Oct 30, 2017
14,527
London
The problem is inviting misogynistic,barbaric theology into your country. I dont want people that believe in the teachings of a sociopathic warlord pedophile living next door to me. Same as I dont want evangelicals by me.

Surprisingly, they don't all believe in the same thing. Hell, the only Mormons I've ever known personally vote straight Democrat.

Just FYI Swiss citizenship is notoriously hard to get anyway.

That's hilarious.


Yeah, if they can't interact with people of the opposite gender it makes life much harder.
 

Occam

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,510
Good. No tolerance for religious sexism and gender-based segregation.

They came to Switzerland, Switzerland didn't come to them. When in Rome, do as the Romans do.
They wanted to reap the benefits of citizenship without becoming part of Swiss society. Why should a free and open society welcome fundamentalists who refuse to integrate and who then form parallel societies where equality doesn't exist?
 
Last edited:

StrapOnFetus

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,355
TX
You move to a different country. Expect conforming to there laws. If you cant even shake a womans hand because of some sexist bullshit. Switz and any other country does not want you. We do not need you.
 

FF Seraphim

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,720
Tokyo
Had trouble answering questions from the opposite sex and refused to shake hands? Yeah... I can maybe understand not wanting to shake hands, but having a hard time answering questions due to a person's gender? Thats a big red flag. What happens if they get questioned by the police or any other civil figure?
 

Westbahnhof

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
10,105
Austria
To be honest, that's a bit dumb of them. Shaking someone's hand of the opposite sex isn't going to kill you nor is it going to invalidate your modesty or whatever. Definitely excessive on their part.
We had a thread like this about a woman in France being denied citizenship, and yeah, this was the main takeaway for me. Though in that case, she chose not to shake hands after being told this would mean not getting citizenship.
This situation seems a bit different in how it played out (including the "struggling to answer questions" stuff), but in the end, it's understandable why a country would not accept people that are unable to make a single exception (as they don't need to shake hands every day) to gain citizenship.
 

708

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,358
Again, completely false, I lived in a predominantly muslim country, talked to people who lived in Saudi Arabia, the only time a woman or man should refuse a handshake in Islam is if there's any sexual intent behind it, this "I'm not gonna shake hands with anyone the opposite sex" is borderline radical and invented years after the Qur'an was prophesized.
Well, idk about that. I'm just saying what I've been taught as a raised Muslim in Iran.
If the link that you shared is correct, then a mahram is someone that having sex with or marrying would be considered forbidden. Family or someone nursed by the same woman as you.
Yes that's correct. But muslims can also touch mahrams (not in a sexual way obviously, just things like shaking hands and etc.). At least this is what I've been taught.
 

Occam

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,510
We had a thread like this about a woman in France being denied citizenship, and yeah, this was the main takeaway for me. Though in that case, she chose not to shake hands after being told this would mean not getting citizenship.
This situation seems a bit different in how it played out (including the "struggling to answer questions" stuff), but in the end, it's understandable why a country would not accept people that are unable to make a single exception (as they don't need to shake hands every day) to gain citizenship.
Yep, by acting this way they displayed a kind of fundamentalism a free and open society can do well without.
 

Psittacus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,933
I don't care what their reasoning is. If they don't want to unnecessarily touch someone then they shouldn't have to unnecessarily touch someone. End of.
 

Ac30

Member
Oct 30, 2017
14,527
London