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BBC: Muslim couple denied Swiss citizenship over no handshake, difficulty w/ opposite sex

Oct 27, 2017
4,043
Austria
Treating men and women differently" amounts to choosing the way you greet someone. Non religous people do this every day. White people do this every day. And its not a problem then, so why now?
It is, if they refuse to treat people equally in a professional setting.

What problems with questions of the opposite sex?
You tell me. I'm not playing your little game of ignorance. One article mentioned they refused to answer, all others mention "problems" related to gender of the person asking. If you believe there is a conspiracy, contact the people on question and stop playing dumb.

How did they speak to the interviewers?
According to what you and I know, they talked to the person of their respective sex.
 
Oct 25, 2017
11,351
How did they speak to the interviewers?
rambis you could win an Olympic gold medal in this topic for seemingly supporting sexism but trying to do it in a way which shrouds mystery and uncertainty around your apparent views.

It might help you fly under any of your posts being report worthy, but anyone with eyes can see through what you're trying to get across quite easily.

I recommend some deep thinking and soul searching on your part about how you view the sexes. Especially women if you're a man.
 

rambis

Banned
Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,790
rambis you could win an Olympic gold medal in this topic for seemingly supporting sexism but trying to do it in a way which shrouds mystery and uncertainty around your apparent views.

It might help you fly under any of your posts being report worthy, but anyone with eyes can see through what you're trying to get across quite easily.

I recommend some deep thinking and soul searching on your part about how you view the sexes. Especially women if you're a man.
Oh fuck off. You can't make something sexist when it isnt. People have the right to not touch anybody they choose to.



According to the BBC, Sweden’s discrimination ombudsman, which represented Ms Alhajeh, said the judgement had taken into account “the employer’s interests, the individual’s right to bodily integrity, and the importance of the state to maintain protection for religious freedom.”

Sweden’s labour court found Ms Alhajeh’s refusal to shake hands due to religious reasons was protected by the European Convention on Human Rights.

While it said the company was right to demand both sexes be treated equally, it was detrimental to Muslims to demand a greeting in the form of a handshake.
 
Oct 25, 2017
11,351
Oh fuck off. You can't make something sexist when it isnt. People have the right to not touch anybody they choose to.
When other posters are in this topic making it clear they do not support sexism or gender segregation and you're more interested playing "Fake news", it doesn't give off a great impression.

Call it religious freedom if you'd like, but if deep down you genuinely think men or women should have difficulty talking to someone who isn't their married partner/of the same sex that is a regressive view.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,043
Austria
Oh fuck off. You can't make something sexist when it isnt. People have the right to not touch anybody they choose to.
A couple refuses to touch the respective opposite sex.
Sexism is defined as "prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex."
How is it not sexist? Are all the newspapers deliberately framing the situation, thus effectively lying?

Not shaking someones hand is not sexism.
Only refusing to shake hands with one sex is sexism, though.
 

rambis

Banned
Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,790
When other posters are in this topic making it clear they do not support sexism or gender segregation and you're more interested playing "Fake news", it doesn't give off a great impression.
Not shaking someones hand is not sexism. There a many acceptable ways to greet a person.

You are trying to deny this Muslim couple's right to choose their way of greeting someone and its BS.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,812
Not shaking hands with the opposite gender
Not wanting to talk with the opposite gender

People are repeating it every page but he is just plain trolling at this point (read 8 pages ago).
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,511
Not shaking someones hand is not sexism. There a many acceptable ways to greet a person.

You are trying to deny this Muslim couple's right to choose their way of greeting someone and its BS.
Are you ok with gender/sex based discrimination?
 

rambis

Banned
Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,790
A couple refuses to touch the respective opposite sex.
Sexism is defined as "prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex."
How is it not sexist? Are all the newspapers deliberately framing the situation, thus effectively lying?
If choosing how to greet someone of the opposite sex is sexism then the entire human race is guilty of sexism.
 
Oct 25, 2017
11,351
Not shaking someones hand is not sexism. There a many acceptable ways to greet a person.

You are trying to deny this Muslim couple's right to choose their way of greeting someone and its BS.
And you are deflecting completely from the overall findings of the interview which state there was genuine gender discrimination and intolerance.

You seem to have zero concern about that and are more interested in stating people should accept such a thing as "just their religion". As I said a page or so ago how about you hold people of faith to a higher standard? Others within the faiths manage not to be sexist and intolerant towards opposite sex/gender.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,257
Not shaking someones hand is not sexism. There a many acceptable ways to greet a person.

You are trying to deny this Muslim couple's right to choose their way of greeting someone and its BS.
Exactly, kinda like choosing not to bake a cake for a gay person is not discrimination, it’s religious freedom.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,110
What about not being able/comfortable talking to the opposite sex? You've given your views on a handshake but what about speaking? There's no contact involved with speaking.

It's obviously going to be extremely inconvenient to them living in the country.

I don't agree with citizenship tests and in this case I feel the government should accommodate their needs and not make it part of their assessment.

I'm a no-borders, no-religions, no-private ownership type of guy so this wouldn't happen in my world, but I'm sensitive to the world we live in and I find this another example of right-wing views victimising minorities.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,043
Austria
Oct 25, 2017
11,351
Exactly, kinda like choosing not to bake a cake for a gay person is not discrimination, it’s religious freedom.
I'm going to assume this is an attempt at satire as you know the second that example gets brought up "everyone" will suddenly change to "no, that's not acceptable, that's biggoted".

And it is. Not serving someone simply because they are gay is not acceptable either.

It's obviously going to be extremely inconvenient to them living in the country.

I don't agree with citizenship tests and in this case I feel the government should accommodate their needs and not make it part of their assessment.

I'm a no-borders, no-religions, no-private ownership type of guy so this wouldn't happen in my world, but I'm sensitive to the world we live in and I find this another example of right-wing views victimising minorities.
What are your thoughts on it though? You've still not answered that. Do you think it's sexist to have issues speaking to the opposite sex just on the basis of them being the opposite sex?

Your world isn't really practical though, so we'll have to work within the confines of what we have.
 

rambis

Banned
Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,790
And you are deflecting completely from the overall findings of the interview which state there was genuine gender discrimination and intolerance.

You seem to have zero concern about that and are more interested in stating people should accept such a thing as "just their religion". As I said a page or so ago how about you hold people of faith to a higher standard? Others within the faiths manage not to be sexist and intolerant towards opposite sex/gender.
What findings? I've seen all of 2-3 sentences posted that go into no detail.

Im concerned that a brown couple was treated misfairly because of a handshake.

Nothing is sexist about declining to touch someone. Nothing is intolerant about declining to touch someone.


Sweden’s discrimination ombudsman, which represented Ms Alhajeh, said the judgement had taken into account “the employer’s interests, the individual’s right to bodily integrity, and the importance of the state to maintain protection for religious freedom.”

Sweden’s labour court found Ms Alhajeh’s refusal to shake hands due to religious reasons was protected by the European Convention on Human Rights.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,043
Austria
I'm going to assume this is an attempt at satire as you know the second that example gets brought up "everyone" will suddenly change to "no, that's not acceptable, that's biggoted".

And it is. Not serving someone simply because they are gay is not acceptable either.
Just to confirm your suspicion of this person being a tiny bit sarcastic:
Fucking idiots, just shake hands for 10 seconds and move on with your lives I’m sure god will forgive you.
 
Oct 25, 2017
11,351
What findings? I've seen all of 2-3 sentences posted that go into no detail.

Im concerned that a brown couple was treated misfairly because of a handshake.

Nothing is sexist about declining to touch someone. Nothing is intolerant about declining to touch someone.
Race has nothing to do with this and for what it's worth it appears the couple originate from the African continent so depending on how you want to frame your racial argument, they might identify as black, not brown.

If that is the case though, don't let that get in the way of you trying to make this a racial "thing".

Just to confirm your suspicion of this person being a tiny bit sarcastic:
Ah okay. You never know because Christian Conservatives will look at the arguments that get used to defend Muslim Conservatives and proclaim "Well, we'll use that it's just our religion defence as well".
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,651
Not shaking hands with the opposite gender
Not wanting to talk with the opposite gender

People are repeating it every page but he is just plain trolling at this point (read 8 pages ago).
i've reported him many times, but it seems that his disingenuous way of arguing is just enough under the radar for the mods not to take action. Real waste of time engaging with.
 

rambis

Banned
Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,790
just because someone has (and should have) the right to do it doesn't mean it isn't sexist
No, the point is that its discriminatory against Muslims to try and force them to shake your hands in order to obtain something. And sexist going by your definitition to force someone of opposite sex to shake your hand.

i've reported him many times, but it seems that his disingenuous way of arguing is just enough under the radar for the mods not to take action. Real waste of time engaging with.
Yeah showing concern for dark people being vaguely denied citizenship is certainly ban worthy. Make sure you report this post as well.
 
May 31, 2018
3,427
No, the point is that its discriminatory against Muslims to try and force them to shake your hands in order to obtain something. And sexist going by your definitition to force someone of opposite sex to shake your hand.
Nobody's forcing anyone to do anything. What the Swiss governemnt has done, however, is deny the couple citizenship because they showed sexist behaviour that is incongruous with the Swiss constitution. If that couple wants to continue holding their sexist attitudes then they're entirely free to do so, they just aren't free to hold those attitudes and have Swiss citizenship at the same time.

Since you didn't answer them before let me ask you:

If I refused to shake hands with any PoC yet felt fine shaking hands with white people am I racist or not?
If I refused to shake hands with any member of the LGBT community (which would mean not shaking hands with myself...) yet felt fine shaking hands with straight people am I homophobic or not?
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,110
What are your thoughts on it though? You've still not answered that. Do you think it's sexist to have issues speaking to the opposite sex just on the basis of them being the opposite sex?

Your world isn't really practical though, so we'll have to work within the confines of what we have.

I think believing in a supernatural being is completely ridiculous and organised religion is definitely an attempt by men in power to try to create a "rule book" to control people and a lot of the rules were put in place to curb rights of women, other men, children.

But I also understand that to some individuals belief is a huge part of their life, and the general idea in the West is to allow for them to practice their religion.

I also think I'm being exceptionally practical and am only applying this to citizens of a place. To live in a country you shouldn't need to shake people's hands and you're willing to avoid contact with men and women if you wish. I don't think there's any national identity being tarnished if you do this.

Business owners and government officials are obviously under a different set of legal rules.
 

rambis

Banned
Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,790
Nobody's forcing anyone to do anything. What the Swiss governemnt has done, however, is deny the couple citizenship because they showed sexist behaviour that is incongruous with the Swiss constitution. If that couple wants to continue holding their sexist attitudes then they're entirely free to do so, they just aren't free to hold those attitudes and have Swiss citizenship at the same time.

Since you didn't answer them before let me ask you:

If I refused to shake hands with any PoC yet felt fine shaking hands with white people am I racist or not?
If I refused to shake hands with any member of the LGBT community (which would mean not shaking hands with myself...) yet felt fine shaking hands with straight people am I homophobic or not?
They are by witholding citizenship. Just like the Swede employer was found to discriminate in that case by withholding a fair interview. You are forcing them to greet you in a certain manner or you withhold something of value.

Not shaking hands isnt sexist. If they refused to answer questions of the opposite sex then say that like you said they refused the handshake. They didn't though, and instead say they had "trouble" or "difficulties" with the opposite sex but didnt describe those difficulties.

I understand that you may not care about getting to the bottom of a minorities couple's fate but if im Swiss I certainly don't hold government above scrutiny and would like much clearer answers then they've given. And also hear the family's side.
 
Oct 25, 2017
691
They are by witholding citizenship. Just like the Swede employer was found to discriminate in that case by withholding a fair interview. You are forcing them to greet you in a certain manner or you withhold something of value.

Not shaking hands isnt sexist. If they refused to answer questions of the opposite sex then say that like you said they refused the handshake. They didn't though, and instead say they had "trouble" or "difficulties" with the opposite sex but didnt describe those difficulties.

I understand that you may not care about getting to the bottom of a minorities couple's fate but if im Swiss I certainly don't hold government above scrutiny and would like much clearer answers then they've given. And also hear the family's side.
lol, relax, nothing's gonna happen. we're talking about a country, who denies you citizenship if you don't know cheese (apparently). they'll get their citizenship eventually, it'll just take a while. it'll be much bigger news, if they get denied to apply again and then they have to provide more info.
 
Oct 25, 2017
11,351
I think believing in a supernatural being is completely ridiculous and organised religion is definitely an attempt by men in power to try to create a "rule book" to control people and a lot of the rules were put in place to curb rights of women, other men, children.

But I also understand that to some individuals belief is a huge part of their life, and the general idea in the West is to allow for them to practice their religion.

I also think I'm being exceptionally practical and am only applying this to citizens of a place. To live in a country you shouldn't need to shake people's hands and you're willing to avoid contact with men and women if you wish. I don't think there's any national identity being tarnished if you do this.

Business owners and government officials are obviously under a different set of legal rules.
Freedom of religion doesn't meant freedom from consequence or freedom to do and say whatever you want without being challenged.

Considering the persecution that happens in some parts of the world if you merely worship the "wrong God" I'd say our freedom of religion is quite decent.

We aren't going to throw our morals and standards out of the window though because of religion. Find a way to come into 2018 with your faith or you'll find door's close and people uneasy around you if you are behaving in ways which are sexist or intolerant.
 
May 31, 2018
3,427
They are by witholding citizenship. Just like the Swede employer was found to discriminate in that case by withholding a fair interview. You are forcing them to greet you in a certain manner or you withhold something of value.
The couple were given a fair interview, and the handshake was merely a single factor amongst others in determining the outcome of that interview.

Not shaking hands isnt sexist. If they refused to answer questions of the opposite sex then say that like you said they refused the handshake. They didn't though, and instead say they had "trouble" or "difficulties" with the opposite sex but didnt describe those difficulties.
Refusing to shake hands is not sexist but refusing to shake hands only from people of the opposite sex is. Stop making it purely about "not shaking hands" because it isn't and, frankly, I cannot believe that you're actually this ignorant about what we're talking about.

Also, since you keep ignoring these questions I'll ask them again:

If I refused to shake hands with any PoC yet felt fine shaking hands with white people am I racist or am I not?
If I refused to shake hands with any member of the LGBT community yet felt fine shaking hands with straight people am I homophobic or am I not?

Also, the Swiss government doesn't need to describe those difficulties because it's blindingly obvious what "struggled to answer questions from the opposite sex," meant. In an interview which, among other things, determines how fit you are to associate with the egalitarian values of Switzerland then showing that you will struggle to speak with 50% of that country's population based entirely on their gender is a big red flag. You can shout "FAKE NEWS" as much as you want but no amount of details will change the fact that they "struggled to answer questions from the opposite sex," to such an extent that the Swiss government, who has let in hundreds of thousands of foreign Muslims before, denied their citizenship because of it.

I understand that you may not care about getting to the bottom of a minorities couple's fate but if im Swiss I certainly don't hold government above scrutiny and would like clearer answers then they've given.
What is that meant to imply? If it's implying what you seem to be implying then I'd rather not argue any further since you're clearly not talking in good faith.
 

rambis

Banned
Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,790
The couple were given a fair interview, and the handshake was merely a single factor amongst others in determining the outcome of that interview.



Refusing to shake hands is not sexist but refusing to shake hands only from people of the opposite sex is. Stop making it purely about "not shaking hands" because it isn't and, frankly, I cannot believe that you're actually this ignorant about what we're talking about.

Also, since you keep ignoring these questions I'll ask them again:

If I refused to shake hands with any PoC yet felt fine shaking hands with white people am I racist or am I not?
If I refused to shake hands with any member of the LGBT community yet felt fine shaking hands with straight people am I homophobic or am I not?

Also, the Swiss government doesn't need to describe those difficulties because it's blindingly obvious what "struggled to answer questions from the opposite sex," meant. In an interview which, among other things, determines how fit you are to associate with the egalitarian values of Switzerland then showing that you will struggle to speak with 50% of that country's population based entirely on their gender is a big red flag. You can shout "FAKE NEWS" as much as you want but no amount of details will change the fact that they "struggled to answer questions from the opposite sex," to such an extent that the Swiss government, who has let in hundreds of thousands of foreign Muslims before, denied their citizenship because of it.



What is that meant to imply? If it's implying what you seem to be implying then I'd rather not argue any further since you're clearly not talking in good faith.
It doesn't matter who or for what reason someone declines to not have physical interaction with someone else. People have liberty to not be touched unnecessarily. Period. Its not sexist or intolerant.

Yes the Swiss government should provide actual explanations because there are dozens of ways "struggles" and "difficulties" could be interpreted.

No one has asked the couple was the interview fair, how do you know they received a fair interview?
 
Apr 1, 2018
410
User Banned (Permanent): History of political trolling.
I applaud the couple for not comprimising in this regard. It's sad to see europe still being so violently racist to people whose only crime is having different customs.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,511
The reason why the Swedish labor court ruled the way it did was because the woman refused to shake anyone's hand. And the case was only about a job interview.
The couple in question refused only opposite sex handshakes, not all handshakes, which is of course sexist, because it goes against gender equality.
They also were uncomfortable when asked questions by members of the opposite sex. They were not uncomfortable when talking to members of the same sex.

This is as clear a case of sexism as you can find. No court has ruled in favor of this kind sexism.
Supporting this kind of sexism makes you a sexist.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,043
Austria
I applaud the couple for not comprimising in this regard. It's sad to see europe still being so violently racist to people whose only crime is having different customs.
But.. This is about citizenship. How is "They can't adjust to local customs" not a problem here?
Putting aside that avoiding any contact with the opposite sex sure reeks of sexism, it's a huge hindrance in a society that has people of the opposite sex in all sorts of positions in daily life.
 
May 31, 2018
3,427
It doesn't matter who or for what reason someone declines to not have physical interaction with someone else. People have liberty to not be touched unnecessarily. Period. Its not sexist or intolerant.
This is a very disturbing idea, that one can act as sexist or as intolerant as they want and have it somehow not be so because they're "free" to act that way. Good to know that, as a gay man, you'd take the side of and adamantly defend someone refusing to shake my hand because they believe they'll "catch the gay." Great stuff.

Yes the Swiss government should provide actual explanations because there are dozens of ways "struggles" and "difficulties" could be interpreted.

No one has asked the couple was the interview fair, how do you know they received a fair interview?
I explained this in the very post you replied to, but I'll explain it again here. The very fact that they struggled to answer questions from the opposite gender in the first place was a red flag, it doesn't matter what exactly those struggles were because they were clearly more than just typical nerves. You've yet to give any plausible scenario where 1) the couple were not sexist in any way whatsoever and 2) the Swiss government, for some reason, singled out this couple and this couple alone to be discriminatory towards when thousands of Muslims have been granted Swiss citizenship in the past. Since you continue to not do so it's hard not to see this argument as anything but conspiratorial rhetoric done in bad faith instead of a genuine desire for answers.

Also, if you asked the couple whether the interview was unfair of course they'd say it was, but what actually matters is whether it was unfair based on the laws and values of Switzerland itself.
 

rambis

Banned
Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,790
This is a very disturbing idea, that one can act as sexist or as intolerant as they want and have it somehow not be so because they're "free" to act that way. Good to know that, as a gay man, you'd take the side of and adamantly defend someone refusing to shake my hand because they believe they'll "catch the gay." Great stuff.



I explained this in the very post you replied to, but I'll explain it again here. The very fact that they struggled to answer questions from the opposite gender in the first place was a red flag, it doesn't matter what exactly those struggles were because they were clearly more than just typical nerves. You've yet to give any plausible scenario where 1) the couple were not sexist in any way whatsoever and 2) the Swiss government, for some reason, singled out this couple and this couple alone to be discriminatory towards when thousands of Muslims have been granted Swiss citizenship in the past. Since you continue to not do so it's hard not to see this argument as anything but conspiratorial rhetoric done in bad faith instead of a genuine desire for answers.

Also, if you asked the couple whether the interview was unfair of course they'd say it was, but what actually matters is whether it was unfair based on the laws and values of Switzerland itself.
Again, refusing to shake someone's hand is not sexist.

Again, simple question. What is difficulties specifically mean in this case?
rambis
Are you ok with gender/sex based discrimination?
Im ok with choosing to greet someone based on your preferred method of greeting.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,052
Texas
Again, refusing to shake someone's hand is not sexist.

Again, simple question. What is difficulties specifically mean in this case?

Im ok with choosing to greet someone based on your preferred method of greeting.
Again, choosing how you greet someone based on their sex is sexist.

Again, why are you so hung up on what difficulties means? If they only had difficulties when answering questions from people of the opposite sex, no matter how those difficulties manifest, it's a clear sign of sexism.

So you're ok with interacting with people of the opposite sex entirely differently to how you greet people of the same sex. You're ok with sexism. Thanks for clearing that up.