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Bernie really out here cutting ads with Joe Rogan's endorsement (SEE STAFF POST)
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Bernie is getting support from a popular youtuber who has on leftists and right wingers. I have my issues with Rogan and some statements he's made in the past but his reach in a Presidential campaign is undeniable and he treats left wingers who actually go on his show fairly.
10 million people saw Sanders video being reasonable and arguing from a leftist perspective and pretty much the entire comment chain is right wing or centrist apoliticalpeople saying that they thought Sanders was crazy because all they ever heard was out of context clips from the right and media, but have change their opinion on his views and policies and in certain cases actually plan to vote for him over trump or someone else if he wins the nomination. That's how you do it.
That's how you expand electorate and get people thinking about supporting you and coming over to your side, the audience who watches this kind of person. And you dont have to sell out your values. As long as you advocate your positions and values clearly and get people to come to YOU.
Its a lot different from Biden pretending he's going to get republican votes by acting like a republican and being a terrible person by moving the overton window closer to Trumpian levels.
This is my whole issue with the "you cant go on X station and give X credibility". Bernie went on fox news and mayhaps converted a percentage of those people by advocating policies from the left and breaking that bubble. Its the most effective way to win.
If Bernie went on fox and started saying race science was valid and tax cuts for the rich helped people and elites werent to blame to America's corruption problem, then i'd be right with anyone complaining. but that's not based in the reality of how progressive spreading of message works.
Sanders giving Joe rogan credit for giving Sanders a big platform to espouse leftist ideals and even says he's going to vote for him means a lot in regards to spreading a leftist value system. It doesnt absolve Rogan of anything he's said or done in the past, but it does show the effectiveness of using such a platform to reach people you normally woulden't be able to.
Supposedly even Biden and Warren wanted to go on Rogan's podcast after Sanders at some point. That right there shows the reach this guy has.
10 million people saw Sanders video being reasonable and arguing from a leftist perspective and pretty much the entire comment chain is right wing or centrist apoliticalpeople saying that they thought Sanders was crazy because all they ever heard was out of context clips from the right and media, but have change their opinion on his views and policies and in certain cases actually plan to vote for him over trump or someone else if he wins the nomination. That's how you do it.
That's how you expand electorate and get people thinking about supporting you and coming over to your side, the audience who watches this kind of person. And you dont have to sell out your values. As long as you advocate your positions and values clearly and get people to come to YOU.
Its a lot different from Biden pretending he's going to get republican votes by acting like a republican and being a terrible person by moving the overton window closer to Trumpian levels.
This is my whole issue with the "you cant go on X station and give X credibility". Bernie went on fox news and mayhaps converted a percentage of those people by advocating policies from the left and breaking that bubble. Its the most effective way to win.
If Bernie went on fox and started saying race science was valid and tax cuts for the rich helped people and elites werent to blame to America's corruption problem, then i'd be right with anyone complaining. but that's not based in the reality of how progressive spreading of message works.
Sanders giving Joe rogan credit for giving Sanders a big platform to espouse leftist ideals and even says he's going to vote for him means a lot in regards to spreading a leftist value system. It doesnt absolve Rogan of anything he's said or done in the past, but it does show the effectiveness of using such a platform to reach people you normally woulden't be able to.
Supposedly even Biden and Warren wanted to go on Rogan's podcast after Sanders at some point. That right there shows the reach this guy has.
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I was interested in this talking point so I went and read through the whole transcript.
Bernie certainly stays on the topic of economic justice very consistently. He doesn't compromise that message at all. But he doesn't mention social justice much. Trans rights or LGBTQ issues don't get a mention. There is one brief reference to immigration reform, basically just that phrase. When asked about drugs he talks about distressed communities and mentions the racial nature of the incarceration crisis explicitly — and good for Bernie for saying that. But that's as far as it goes.
So it's probably true that Bernie did not compromise explicitly on the podcast. But does Bernie usually avoid talking about queer or racial issues at all? And if so, isn't that relevant here? Because that's what he did to appeal to Rogan. He mostly just left them out.
Or maybe he just doesn't like the receipts being pulled? Who knows.
It's not on anybody but him to reject his reprehensible views and prove that he doesn't subscribe to them. Deleting tweets means nothing when he continues espousing the same shit.
Again with the social media takes instead of formulating your own thoughts and opinions. There's a reason why this is getting side-eyed in here.
Also, her take has no basis in reality and isn't backed up by anything tangible when it comes to some of Rogan's listeners being rehabilitated.
Just so we're clear;
Joe Biden courting moderates/Republicans is nonsense.
Bernie Sanders courting Fox News viewers and Joe Rogans likely conservative-leaving audience is savvy politics.
OP
OP
He held that racist ass view in 2012. How the fuck does someone think this 4 years after Obama been President and trying to get reelected? Who knows what he actually believes. I know being a birther doesn't help his candidate's endorsement.
I don't view this as derailing at all. I think its an important subject and it shouldn't be hand waved away because bernie supporters want to acknowledge the political viability of such a move or whether his opponents just want to pat themselves on the back for yelling at said supporters. If we want to talk about honesty, the goal of your posts according to you, acknowledging that both are real problems that we should address and grapple with is the bare minimum starting point for how we move forward with the topic of the thread. But I don't think you were trying to be honest in any of your conversations with me, and I wouldn't PM you because I actually think this conversation is best had in public where everyone can see it.
Maybe he should state publicly that he doesn't hold those views any more
I disagree on fixing the economy as the forefront. Unfortunately America's economic system under the guise of capitalism has always been about 'fixes' (New Deal, post wwII economy, etc) that just re-allocate wealth not fairly, but to white men. Not because the powers that be have a specific allegiance to any idea of race or gender, but as long as that groups been happy the grift has been going smoothly because they assume their status quo is thee status quo and thus anyone asking for change = lazy, lower iq, a commie, and thus are enforcers for those same powers.
I think the bigger issue with the idea of social economic safety nets under capitalism, "socialism", etc is that worldwide those systems still make sure minorities take the short end of the stick even when they gotta make up their own version of minorities (religious, tribal, language differences get amplified, etc).
Nothing fishy about someone posting multiple twitter posts without providing their own thoughts on the issue. Nope. Nothing fishy.
I'll use the marginalized people who agree with me as a defense! Debate them!
You just going to post every random twitter post claiming to be a trans and/or black person supporting this endorsement that you can find?
Should of phrased better, so I'll extrapolate. People who support this vs those that don't. Meaningful conversation can be had here and I don't think people defending this move are beyond changing their minds on the subject (I'm one of them). But I don't think many of those people are changing their minds when the conversation begins from such a passive aggressive starting point. And youre under no obligation to take that advice (and you don't need me telling you this I'm just preemptively clarifying since youve accused me several times of suggesting you are). If all youre trying to accomplish is to vent then I get it, its frustrating. But from my perspective its more important (to me anyway) to find a way to actually resonate and change people's mind since we both agree these are serious problems that need to be addressed.
We are going to need new forum rules. Posting alleged marginalized individuals' tweets without added your own thoughts should catch a clap.
I can't lie; I guffawed.
Literally ripping a page out of the "I have a black/minority friend" playbook.
And this is the level of discourse that should be respected in a thread silencing minority voices who DO have a problem with Bernie's promotion of Rogan's endorsement?
User banned (Permanent): Trolling over a series of posts + previous infraction for peddling rhetoric from hate movements
lol you guys are so fucking mad that some trans folk are on Bernie's side.
Lol "u mad" as a response for highlighting your posting trans folks' tweets without your thoughts.
Intellectually stunted.
No, we're annoyed that you can't make a real argument to support something beyond quoting a bunch of random trans folk on Twitter.
With all due respect it;'s pretty clear you have little interest in hearing out trans folk and Black folk who don't support Bernie on this. That you're using those tweets to proclaim that the only problem is trans folk and black folk taking issue with Sanders touting the Rogan endorsement.
It's pretty cruel to use marginalized people to deride other marginalized people for having issue with frankly a whitewashing of Joe Rogan.
Well at least we derived your motivation for posting those Twitter screencaps.
Not really. I think Nora is a fucking diamond for being bold in her opinion when I caught it earlier on.
The question was whether you were trans or just using their opinions as some weak "gotcha" against people highlighting an issue.
What you apparently don't understand with this shitty social media bludgeoning is that the issue is not that no minority should be okay with this. There were great, insightful posts early in the thread where people explained why in the grand scheme of things they could stomach that, and it's their prerogative.
The issue is that people uncomfortable with this are essentially told to shut the fuck up, a pattern you're perpetuating here.
That you can't even compose a response containing your own personal thoughts or defend yourself for what you were called out on is telling.
Stop hiding behind marginalized voices who agree with you and trivializing other marginalized voices that don't. Shameful.
What are the odds Cherries has whipped out an MLK quote to silence black dissent? Considering that user is already pretty adept at the tactic
No, it's the time to show you can beat Trump. That's the whole point of this whole process.
In this thread I've been far more than just passive aggressive.... sometimes I am, usually when I want to dismiss something like claiming everything is good because 24 hours later in Iowa no one knows yet.
And my other thread wasn't passive aggressive it was just aggressive and intentionally so.
Fuck why am I explaining myself to you....
You satisfied yet or do you have another 30 questions where you'll claim victory if I don't answer each one to you liking?
All right, I deleted those posts. Sorry about sharing posts from transfolk who might have a different perspective.
Weak ass apology. You paraded their tweets to dismiss conversations in this thread from other marginalized individuals. See yourself out.
You know damn well that's not the issue. Nobody has an issue with different opinions and perspectives.
When someone who, I assume, isn't trans (you wouldn't answer people asking if you were or not) is acting as if those opinions should silence other marginalized voices who dissent with them because they fall in line with your privileged view of things, that becomes an issue. And that's exactly what you were doing.
The use of intersectionality in finding those tweets specifically from black voices makes the posts are the more calculated, if not insidious.
As I said: the virtual equivalent of invoking MLK to silence dissent.
These bigots watched with their own eyes (many actively participating in) Black Americans terrorised, murdered, and oppressed, and when the civil rights movement began, they fought tooth and nail against it. In some parts of the US it was exactly at this moment when Confederate flags and monuments began to go up. When civil rights legislation were finally signed into law, Southern Democrats flipped to the Republican Party in protest.
They're not being tricked into believing they are oppressed by minorities. This is exactly what they want, because to them minorities are going to suffer even worse then they are.
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When people criticize moderates for trying to appeal to Republicans, they criticize the idea of compromising your progressive ideas in a bid to appear more palatable to conservatives. In effect, centrist democrats just make the needle of the party move ever further to the right by always conceding things to Republicans. And they hope that Republicans will reciprocate eventually and be a bit more progressive in return, except they never do. They take, but they never give. Here's a good video on the subject (this is a whole series, and it's been a while since I've watched it, so I hope this is the right episode, but the whole series is worth a watch or five, to be honest):
Basically: Conservatives/Republicans tend to play dirty, while liberals/Democrats tend to try and play fair, and so the latter are all about reasoning, dialogue, due process and having the philosophical high ground, but that can never work when the former doesn't care and will never extend an olive branch.
Now, I'm not very familiar with what Biden does specifically in that respect, so I can't speak as to his tactics, but that's not what Sanders has been doing so far. If you listen to his interview on Rogan's podcast, he says pretty much the same things he's been saying all this time, without co-opting any conservative talking points in an attempt to cater to Rogan or Rogan's audience. Even the tweet on Bernie's official account does nothing of the sort.
With that said, back on-topic, the tweet is still shitty. Rogan may be an impressionable dunce, but he still very much harbors racist and transphobic views. Cutting a campaign ad acknowledging his endorsement might not be literally the same thing as saying "Rogan is awesome and Bernie very much likes his views", but it still platforms him and shows some degree of (real or perceived) association with his content. I don't think it will matter much in the long run because the ad and the tweet don't literally support or even thank Rogan, and it's pretty clear that Bernie himself is, by and large, inclusive, but it's still clumsy at best, and it shouldn't surprise anyone that trans people or black people, among others, would be hurt by that move.
when i say fix i don't mean a band aid fix lol. anything that unfairly reallocates money specifically to white dudes isnt a fix
as far as the rest of the world, those socialized systems are still undeniably better than what we have here. that they have issues to iron out isn't an indictment of socialism lol
I have a question then. broadly speaking, this isn't just aimed at you but for anyone who thinks this what do you do about bigotry? bigots exist, what do you do? they aren't going away. you prolly can't get rid of all em... you could try to change their minds tho
i believe, truly, that moving toward more fair economic practices are a great first step. it's not the only step, mind, but maintaining the status quo isn't a step in any direction.
Watching the degree to which some folks will go to explain away LGBTQ people's & PoC's own concerns about bigotry to themselves is fucking ghoulish. It's all good if an association with Rogan and his birther, transphobic, homophobic, racist, sexist past doesn't bother you but please don't tell the people he's targeted that their concerns are overblown or somehow not valid here.
I was being generous using the word passive to you so the conversation between us could be civil, but yes it wasn't just being passive aggressive.
And neither of such answered the question. I haven't asked you thirty questions, Ive asked you 2, maybe 3 if we consider the follow up as two distinct questions. Using hyperbole to act as if discussion on a message board is out of control isn't strengthening your positions either (or that I have a fixation on you, I'm just talking to you). You don't have to explain anything to me, or talk to me at all. You can put me on ignore. But it speaks volumes to whats happening here that having a simple discussion about tactics in fixing a problem here (one we both agree is serious) is drawing so much ire from you towards me.
You want to talk about honesty and what youre doing is drawing out honesty, but youre being incredibly dishonest in this discussion, and rude no less. I asked you this question because I think this is a serious problem, and as someone that changed their opinion on the very matter here I think its worth evaluating how we get more people to do that. I don't think the way youve been discussing this topic with me, or others, accomplishes that. Further, not only does it not solve anything I would argue it pushes people further away from your own position. And if its a topic you actually really cared about you would approach the topic with a little more honesty in an attempt to do something about it as opposed to just attacking people.
And youre under no obligation to take what I say into consideration, or do anything other than what youve been doing. Thats your right. Just don't act like you actually care about the central issue here if you don't care about finding solutions to it, or making it worse (because thats what youre doing).
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