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Umbrella Carp

Banned
Jan 16, 2019
3,265
The incumbent seat he's replacing had someone who was a proponent for M4A so

And Cenk supports it while Smith doesn't, so essentially we are saying we are happy to endanger the cause of M4A, a system that would do wonders for women because he was a dickhead at 21 and somebody remembered it. Am I wrong for thinking that is an own goal?
 

TyraZaurus

Member
Nov 6, 2017
4,439
I didn't imply it was a random photo.
I'm not convinced of the accusation without better evidence. For example something saying he supports the organization inspite of it's Armenian genocide denial.

in that case, the burden of proof is on you to produce that kind of evidence. I am not obligated to give it the benefit of a doubt
 
Oct 28, 2018
573
"Sexism is fine as long as they have better economic policies."

No it's not "fine". That's a deliberate misrepresentation of what I'm saying.

I'd rather have someone in office who has made past, sexist comments and wants to work hard to save thousands of American lives vs. someone who has not made such comments and won't fight for the same positions. Simple as that.

The lives of Americans are far, far more important than past comments.
 

pigeon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,447
And Cenk supports it while Smith doesn't, so essentially we are saying we are happy to endanger the cause of M4A, a system that would do wonders for women because he was a dickhead at 21 and somebody remembered it. Am I wrong for thinking that is an own goal?

You should also check the date of the interview
 

Boiled Goose

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
9,999
Rather, if you had shitty views, you have to work extra hard to show that you've changed, not just say "whoops, my bad". And you sure as fuck shouldn't endorse people with shitty views. There's a thread about the AVGN, where people, rightfully, complain about him being friends with Mike Matei, who drew some racist comics. They've chosen not to watch his channel, as is their right. By the same token, people have the right to complain when Bernie endorses someone who has said some abhorrent things in the past, and has done little to repudiate them.

I think if you have seen tyt for the past 10 years you would probably gain some insight into his current views. I haven't really watched tyt in a year or so, but his repudiation of his previous views seems pretty thorough and convincing to me personally.
 

pigeon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,447
No it's not "fine". That's a deliberate misrepresentation of what I'm saying.

I'd rather have someone in office who has made past, sexist comments and wants to work hard to save thousands of American lives vs. someone who has not made such comments and won't fight for the same positions. Simple as that.

The lives of Americans are far, far more important than past comments.

you should ALSO check the date of the interview
 

pigeon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,447
I think if you have seen tyt for the past 10 years you would probably gain some insight into his current views. I haven't really watched tyt in a year or so, but his repudiation of his previous views seems pretty thorough and convincing to me personally.

but you especially should tell me what date the interview was goose
 
Oct 25, 2017
11,089
I've heard about this guy for years, but didn't know about the Armenian genocide denial stuff and his misogynist past. That's an awful candidate to endorse and deserves to be called out on it. I'm going to assume Bernie probably wasn't aware of it and will back off now that it's out in the open. After 2016 politicians need to be freaking vetted and we need to stop settling for trash because we think they can win or that can appeal to Republicans/our agenda.
 

Boiled Goose

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
9,999
in that case, the burden of proof is on you to produce that kind of evidence. I am not obligated to give it the benefit of a doubt

I agree that you have the right to be suspicious and concerned.

However, the allegations in the thread were far more specific. Those allegations would bear the burden of proof. I don't know if it was you making those allegations.
 

Encephalon

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,851
Japan
No it's not "fine". That's a deliberate misrepresentation of what I'm saying.

I'd rather have someone in office who has made past, sexist comments and wants to work hard to save thousands of American lives vs. someone who has not made such comments and won't fight for the same positions. Simple as that.

The lives of Americans are far, far more important than past comments.

What?

"No I'm not saying sexism is fine if they have better economic policies, I'm saying I'm I would choose the sexist candidate over another one if they had better economic policies."
 

Umbrella Carp

Banned
Jan 16, 2019
3,265
The political axis is not a one-dimensional one revolving solely around economics!

I'm sorry Kirblar but that attitude is why the UK, Australia and the U.S are currently drowning in alt right trash. The working class in particular take economic politics very seriously, and when a rising tide like M4A lifts all boats, including womens, I just can't wrap my head around this logic.
 

BUNTING1243

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,704
Seems like a weird endorsement. Obviously Sanders and Cenk are ideologically similar but Sanders has also missed a lot of other endorsements that he should've made. Whoever is managing that for him needs to rethink the strategy.

Also: I don't think he's going to win, which makes this even WEIRDER
 

Sandstar

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,735
I've heard about this guy for years, but didn't know about the Armenian genocide denial stuff and his misogyny past. That's an awful candidate to endorse and deserves to be called out on it. I'm going to assume Bernie probably wasn't aware of it and will back off now that it's out in the open. After 2016 politicians need to be freaking vetted and we need to stop settling for trash because we think they can win or that can appeal to Republicans/agenda.

How many times should I give Bernie a pass for "not being aware of something" when he makes a mistake, before we're allowed to call it a pattern of behavior that speaks badly of his judement?
 

TyraZaurus

Member
Nov 6, 2017
4,439
I'm sorry Kirblar but that attitude is why the UK, Australia and the U.S are currently drowning in alt right trash. The working class in particular take economic politics very seriously, and when a rising tide like M4A lifts all boats, including womens, I just can't wrap my head around this logic.

Maybe because they're worried he'll shoot holes in said women's boats re: other matters.
 

Umbrella Carp

Banned
Jan 16, 2019
3,265
Maybe because they'll worried he'll shoot holes in said women's boats re: other matters.

Sure and if and when he does that, he needs to be called to account, but just sitting on the TYT panel he is harmless no matter what he says. It's not like that audience is going to agree with him. Why do you think he felt it necessary to walk it back?
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
I'm sorry Kirblar but that attitude is why the UK, Australia and the U.S are currently drowning in alt right trash. The working class in particular take economic politics very seriously, and when a rising tide like M4A lifts all boats, including womens, I just can't wrap my head around this logic.
My attitude is just fine. Your point of view is why you're constantly getting people very angry at you for being completely dismissive of marginalized groups' individual concerns. You literally just unironically used the "rising tides" language!

You're describing exactly the problem laid out at the beginning of this very good piece (that's applicable to left to center politics broadly, this isn't just a lefty issue w/ trying to substitute broad economics for targeted interventions) https://www.leftvoice.org/socialism-universalism-and-anti-anti-racism

In the guise of a critique of identity politics, it has become increasingly common, and widely acceptable, not simply to ignore these struggles or merely pay lip service to their importance, while ignoring them in practice, but to denounce them as "particularistic" and narrow, undertaken only to secure benefits and privileges for a minority of the population (exactly as the recent teacher strikes have been depicted as the "selfish" and even greedy actions of those unwilling to put the needs of students above their own). A quarantine is imposed on the fight against specific racist practices and their effects and after-effects through the application of the label of "identity politics," as if specifically anti-racist action were a kind of pathogen that, if left unchecked, could pose a serious risk to the class struggle. The unshakeable faith of those who believe that economic reforms will make racism disappear and who see the self-organization of the specially oppressed as divisive and an obstacle to achieving these reforms, is only part of the problem. A critical analysis of the anti-anti-racist tendency (and its enablers) requires a brief examination of the two histories at work here: the history of what we will call economism in the socialist and Communist movements and the history of the concept of identity politics.

edit: Wait, this attitude is "why the UK, Australia and the U.S are currently drowning in alt right trash"? So it's the fault of people pushing to do better on helping various marginalized groups who are to blame for pissing off reactionaries?
 

Encephalon

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,851
Japan
See. This is just extreme dishonest arguing. No one has said that. How's it possible to have an honest conversation with this level of dishonesty??

Of course the people supporting his candidacy believe that he currently doesn't have those views.
There is nothing dishonest in my post. He proceeded to confirm it not only once, but twice.

It's ok as long as he supports M4A, which is "more important" than "words."

"That's called prioritization."
 

TyraZaurus

Member
Nov 6, 2017
4,439
Sure and if and when he does that, he needs to be called to account, but just sitting on the TYT panel he is harmless no matter what he says. It's not like that audience is going to agree with him. Why do you think he felt it necessary to walk it back?

Except I'm questioning just HOW much he's walked some of it back, because people have posted some evidence he's still pulling for stuff after his apparent epiphany. One has to walk the walk, not just talk the talk. If apologies were all that was needed, I'd be insulting my own personal journey to overcome my own problematic past.
 

Ziltoidia 9

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,140
I take him at his word that he no longer is "like this" but the whole running in a district that he doesn't live in was kinda stupid. I really don't think he should be running anyway.
 
Oct 28, 2018
573

These are the choices we have to make sometimes. I don't know why this is so hard to comprehend? Sometimes you get stuck with a shitty situation where you have to choose the lesser of two evils and you have to prioritize. This is politics 101. Clinton was a sexist, misogynistic asshole, but he was better than George H. Bush.
 

Umbrella Carp

Banned
Jan 16, 2019
3,265
Except I'm questioning just HOW much he's walked some of it back, because people have posted some evidence he's still pulling for stuff after his apparent epiphany. One has to walk the walk, not just talk the talk. If apologies were all that was needed, I'd be insulting my own personal journey to overcome my own problematic past.

That's fine, but he can't exactly make up for it without some sort of authority. I guess women in particular have a right to be worried about his true intent, but they really need to understand that the issue of M4A goes beyond them, it helps their kids as well, and their grandkids and so on. There is a lot at stake here.
 

TyraZaurus

Member
Nov 6, 2017
4,439
These are the choices we have to make sometimes. I don't know why this is so hard to comprehend? Sometimes you get stuck with a shitty situation where you have to choose the lesser of two evils and you have to prioritize. This is politics 101. Clinton was a sexist, misogynistic asshole, but he was better than George H. Bush.

You do realize that this is a tacit equating of Smith with Bush now, right?
 

pigeon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,447
That's fine, but he can't exactly make up for it without some sort of authority. I guess women in particular have a right to be worried about his true intent, but they really need to understand that the issue of M4A goes beyond them, it helps their kids as well, and their grandkids and so on. There is a lot at stake here.

Why can he not make up for it without getting a political position? That's an utterly bonkers view. He could donate a lot of money to women's issues. He could showcase anti-misogynistic voices on his extremely popular YouTube outlet. He could publicly endorse the woman running in CA-50!

There are lots of things he could do. He just doesn't want to do them.
 

Alucrid

Chicken Photographer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,404
i'm currently reading this thread with yakety sax song playing in my head
 

PKrockin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,260
So I see that posting "I'll still vote for him" gets you banned, but what about if someone said "Given this new information I'll still vote for him because I think his other good qualities still outweigh the bad considering the candidates and context of the election"? Is that "dismissing concerns of sexism"? Really not sure where the line is here which is kind of concerning when the bans being handed out are into the weeks and months. What's the problem exactly, that you don't specifically mention "sexist comments" or something in your post, or is the bannable offense saying they're not that big a deal compared to other things the poster personally prioritizes? Or something else?

I don't watch TYT or know much about this guy at all, my only impressions of the TYT crew is that they never appeared all that sharp to me.
 

TyraZaurus

Member
Nov 6, 2017
4,439
That's fine, but he can't exactly make up for it without some sort of authority. I guess women in particular have a right to be worried about his true intent, but they really need to understand that the issue of M4A goes beyond them, it helps their kids as well, and their grandkids and so on. There is a lot at stake here.

I'm a non-binary person who has to present as male in real life, and a survivor of online CSA. Many of the issues I face overlap with the ones women and other minorities are challenged with. And I don't think it's fair to say that those concerns have less importance than M4A like you seem to be implying. If that's a wrong assumption, then I apologize. But women's issues affect "their children, their grandchildren" too - they shouldn't be expected to take an L for the "greater good" because women's' issues are everyone's issues.
 

Umbrella Carp

Banned
Jan 16, 2019
3,265
I'm a non-binary person who has to present as male in real life, and a survivor of online CSA. Many of the issues I face overlap with the ones women and other minorities are challenged with. And I don't think it's fair to say that those concerns have less importance than M4A like you seem to be implying. If that's a wrong assumption, then I apologize. But women's issues affect "their children, their grandchildren" too - they shouldn't be expected to take an L for the "greater good" because women's' issues are everyone's issues.

But they (you) aren't taking an L, you're trying to improve your own lives. Is that not worth it?
 
Oct 25, 2017
11,089
How many times should I give Bernie a pass for "not being aware of something" when he makes a mistake, before we're allowed to call it a pattern of behavior that speaks badly of his judement?
Where did I say you should give him a pass? I said the exact opposite that he deserved to be called out on it. This is why I can't stand the political season and political threads here. No one operates in good faith and almost everyone is partisan in them. There's no debate to be had when people just puts words into each other's mouth to believe what they did at the start.
 

pigeon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,447
But they (you) aren't taking an L, you're trying to improve your own lives. Is that not worth it?

you don't think having a candidate who cares about women's issues would improve people's lives?

It's very hard not to read this as you saying that women's issues are just not as important as having another vote for Medicare for All would be.
 
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