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Bernie Sanders releases Comprehensive Immigration Plan - Abolishes ICE/CBP and Empowers Workers.

Lord of Ostia

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,609
There needs to be just as much space given to discussing what is going to replace ICE as there is to abolishing it. It's necessary to do so because if you don't it's easy for the opposition to run with the narrative that you embrace illegal immigration. That's not a winning position. If you just say "Ice was started in 2003 let's just go to the time before that, you will lose a lot of votes".
You could just give the funding to the FBI instead. Who will use it to combat more serious problems.
 
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JealousKenny

Member
Jul 17, 2018
1,188
You literally just give the funding to the FBI instead. Who will use it to combat more serious problems.
Cot damnit. See that is what I'm afraid Bernie's answer would be when he gets on stage with Trump. If he said that Trump would steamroll him. Perception is reality and if you travel this country and listen to people you would pick up very quickly that illegal immigration is viewed as a serious problem. Saying you would give the money to the FBI to combat more serious problems is essentially saying illegal immigration isn't a serious problem to you.

Bernie currently has an issue connecting with African American voters, he gets up there and says that shit during a primary and he is fucked.
 
OP
OP
Tukarrs

Tukarrs

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,507
Cot damnit. See that is what I'm afraid Bernie's answer would be when he gets on stage with Trump. If he said that Trump would steamroll him. Perception is reality and if you travel this country and listen to people you would pick up very quickly that illegal immigration is viewed as a serious problem. Saying you would give the money to the FBI to combat more serious problems is essentially saying illegal immigration isn't a serious problem to you.

Bernie currently has an issue connecting with African American voters, he gets up there and says that shit during a primary and he is fucked.
Bernie's plan does not pass the duties to the FBI.

Break up ICE and CBP and redistribute their functions to their proper authorities.
  • Deportation, enforcement, border and investigatory authority would return to the Department of Justice.
  • Customs authority would return to the Treasury Department.
  • Naturalization and citizenship authority would be given to the State Department
And his messaging seems to be that to stop the border crossings, it is much better to focus on making life better in central america. Nobody wants to walk thousands of miles with young children unless they're escaping some really bad situation.

Yeah, if you vote for Bernie you better really, really like his choice for VP. If it's Yang, I'm not going to be happy (I mean, I would still choose him over you know who, of course)
Bernie said in a recent interview with Mehdi Hasan in a question about Warren as VP, "Obviously If I'm fortunate enough to become the democratic nominee and President of the United States, I would look absolutely to Elizabeth Warren as somebody who would play a very, very important role in everything we're doing."

And that "This is what I will say which is most important. Trust me. My Vice Presidential candidate will be a strong progressive."

So I really doubt he'll be picking a centrist or a Yang.
 

Lord of Ostia

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,609
Cot damnit. See that is what I'm afraid Bernie's answer would be when he gets on stage with Trump. If he said that Trump would steamroll him. Perception is reality and if you travel this country and listen to people you would pick up very quickly that illegal immigration is viewed as a serious problem. Saying you would give the money to the FBI to combat more serious problems is essentially saying illegal immigration isn't a serious problem to you.

Bernie currently has an issue connecting with African American voters, he gets up there and says that shit during a primary and he is fucked.
It's not a serious problem. People only think it is due to racism. Also no idea why you are bringing up black voters, I'm almost positive immigration is low on their list of concerns.

The conditions immigrants are fleeing are serious problems, obviously.
 
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shotopunx

Member
Nov 21, 2017
991
Dublin, Ireland
There's quite a bit of research to say that illegal immigration is a net gain for an economy. This is predicated predominantly on two things.

1) They are paid under the value of the labour they provide.

2) While they pay VAT, they cannot get any returns on that tax that they pay.

If you think something like ICE is necessary, you've been hoodwinked. Please consider how much wealth and resources that the US has hoarded and tell me its justified.
 

y2dvd

Member
Nov 14, 2017
1,793
Always interesting to see non-US folks siding with Bernie. Trust me, I'm trying to do my part! Just another plan to push him even further to lead the pack.
 

Ionic

Member
Oct 31, 2017
1,481
Always interesting to see non-US folks siding with Bernie. Trust me, I'm trying to do my part! Just another plan to push him even further to lead the pack.
Remember, in the 2016 primary the Democrats Abroad vote went 70 - 30 Sanders/Clinton. Folks who have left the US are seemingly aware of what services a functional nation should provide its citizens.
 

obelisk

Banned
Nov 7, 2019
3
When lefties say 'abolish ice' they (usually) are leaving out the second part which is 'replace it with something better'. Those roles you listed are important but can be done by a far more sympathetically designed organisation.

edit: ofc the range of opinions on the left can also span over too 'immigrants shouldn't be deported because they are just a scapegoat for capital inequalities created domestically' and that gang crime is exacerbated by the war on drugs and awful foreign policy. In which case if those things are fixed then ICE would have no purpose
So if we stop trying to tackle the major drug problem in the United States and improve our foreign policy gang crime will be fixed? There has always been gang crime in America, especially at the border. In addition, there are numerous examples of illegal immigrants who do cause harm in local communities and aren't simply used as a "scapegoat for capital inequalities."

What kind of "sympathetically designed organization" do you have in mind?

Here's the thing about ICE: all of those positive things you just named that ICE does? Those are all under the purview of the FBI. If ICE were abolished, FBI could just take over all of ICE's funding to fight those very issues. The problem with ICE is that their mandate is specifically tied to immigration. Meaning they are incentivized to go after all forms of undocumented immigrants as a directive, not just undocumented immigrants who are committing serious crimes (crimes that, again, are already under the purview of the FBI). They are a completely unnecessary organization unless you think the mass deportation of undocumented immigrants purely for being undocumented is a good thing. If you do think that, then I can't help you because you have a fucked up worldview.
The mass deportation of illegal immigrants is not done on general principle. There is a fully legal way to enter our country, and if you genuinely do need to seek asylum there is a valid method to do that as well. I cannot sympathize with people who get detained whilst trying to cross our borders in an illegitimate way.

Immigration into the United States is something everyone should embrace, as it is what built our country and is what makes our country what it is today. By allowing people to stay here illegally, the immigrants that have taken time, money, and effort to migrate here are overshadowed by those who simply disregard and disrespect our laws.
 

mrmoose

Member
Nov 13, 2017
7,572
There's quite a bit of research to say that illegal immigration is a net gain for an economy. This is predicated predominantly on two things.

1) They are paid under the value of the labour they provide.

2) While they pay VAT, they cannot get any returns on that tax that they pay.

If you think something like ICE is necessary, you've been hoodwinked. Please consider how much wealth and resources that the US has hoarded and tell me its justified.
So following this, if they are paid at the value of the labour they provide, which is what Bernie wants and presumably what most supporters want, doesn't that net gain become a negative? I still don't get how you can guarantee wages to a group of people who legally aren't supposed to be working.
 

Lord of Ostia

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,609
So if we stop trying to tackle the major drug problem in the United States and improve our foreign policy gang crime will be fixed? There has always been gang crime in America, especially at the border. In addition, there are numerous examples of illegal immigrants who do cause harm in local communities and aren't simply used as a "scapegoat for capital inequalities."

What kind of "sympathetically designed organization" do you have in mind?


The mass deportation of illegal immigrants is not done on general principle. There is a fully legal way to enter our country, and if you genuinely do need to seek asylum there is a valid method to do that as well. I cannot sympathize with people who get detained whilst trying to cross our borders in an illegitimate way.

Immigration into the United States is something everyone should embrace, as it is what built our country and is what makes our country what it is today. By allowing people to stay here illegally, the immigrants that have taken time, money, and effort to migrate here are overshadowed by those who simply disregard and disrespect our laws.
The asylum system is complete bullshit, it does not come even remotely close to addressing the need that exists. It needs significant reforms, but the people fleeing violence, disease, and starvation don't have the luxury of waiting for those reforms. So they cross the border.

If the laws are leaving people to die then guess what? They are immoral and should be disobeyed. Legality is not morality. These people just want to be able to live their lives, provide for their children. The immigration system as it stands now is a wealth/priviledge barrier.
 

Lord of Ostia

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,609
So following this, if they are paid at the value of the labour they provide, which is what Bernie wants and presumably what most supporters want, doesn't that net gain become a negative? I still don't get how you can guarantee wages to a group of people who legally aren't supposed to be working.
You give them legal status.
 

chirt

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,170
User banned (3 days): metacommentary
Weird that the usual suspects derailing Bernie threads haven't made an appearance in this one.
 
Oct 26, 2017
3,790
Not bad, will have to read his actual plan. So long abolishing ICE and CBP doesn't effect the enforcement of the border and the ability to manage what's coming through our ports of entry, then I wouldn't miss them especially seeing what those departments have turned into; gutting them may be the only way to ensure those practices under this administration die.
 

muteKi

Member
Oct 22, 2018
10,415
a sunken pirate ship
You started quite a few threads here to disparage Bernie Sanders on here. I'm glad you are being less negative toward his platform these days. Is it this plan that has changed your mind?
I can't speak for her but I can say that stuff like this is a HUGE deal, because one of the reasons I didn't vote in the 2016 primary was dismissiveness toward issues relating to racial justice from both Sanders and Clinton in a time when it's one of the most pressing matters in our country. I'm glad Sanders isn't hedging on this, this campaign, and it makes me significantly more interested in supporting him.
 

excelsiorlef

Member
Oct 25, 2017
40,288
You started quite a few threads here to disparage Bernie Sanders on here. I'm glad you are being less negative toward his platform these days. Is it this plan that has changed your mind?
I've always maintained my issues are with his personality, and frequently his approach at times being too much class reductionist, not his policies or ideas.

But he's running a better campaign yes.
 

Speely

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,646
User Banned (3 days): antagonizing other members
You prolly just summoned them. This tends to happen.

Anyway, I haven't ever been behind a pres candidate like I am am behind Bernie. Been that since he first ran. I will gladly support the farthest-left option again and again until it works because I want to elect someone who wants to save humans and human rights, not just use borders and racism and corporations to advance their own aims.

This immigration plan is good. One thing it could do is integrate Americans with immigrants in a healthier fashion. That's a good long-term benefit because it affects the most important issue we currently face: climate change.

Racists vote Republican almost every time. If racists elect more Rebublican presidents, then nothing is done about climate change. I.E. racism directly affects us as an existential risk because of ongoing policy that ignores the very real threat of climate change.

Turns out, electing people who are more humane isn't just being a carebear. It's also trying to save the world.

Having a real, comprehensive policy that makes day to day life between immigrants and born citizens more normalized can only help in this capacity, and anything that reduces the ammunition racists use to affect their childrens' future racist voting decisions is great.

We can't have a great policy on climate change without a great policy on social change. Republicans will always side with big business unless we force them not to, and racists will always vote Republican unless we show them that not doing so helps them as much as it does others.
 

obelisk

Banned
Nov 7, 2019
3
The asylum system is complete bullshit, it does not come even remotely close to addressing the need that exists. It needs significant reforms, but the people fleeing violence, disease, and starvation don't have the luxury of waiting for those reforms. So they cross the border.

If the laws are leaving people to die then guess what? They are immoral and should be disobeyed. Legality is not morality. These people just want to be able to live their lives, provide for their children. The immigration system as it stands now is a wealth/priviledge barrier.
Then these people should be Mexico's problem, not ours. We already have a hard time as it is providing for our poor, so how should we care for Mexico's impoverished as well? I'm all for sending aid, but we simply cannot take in every person who wants to flee their country, especially considering there have been multiple instances where they have brought over drugs and crime.

The United States is an independent country, not somewhere you illegally invade because you can't wait the same amount of time everyone else does to enter it the correct way.
You give them legal status.
So then there would be no benefit to entering the country legally? If we're just going to give everyone who jumps the border legal status, why don't we go ahead and open the flood gates already? You have to enter the country legally or you get deported. That's how it always has been and how it always will be. We've already seen what taking in thousands of refugees has done to countries in Europe and I'd rather not that happen here.
You can't tackle the drug problem in the US by trying to throw cops at it. The war on drugs wasn't even meant to curtail drug use, it was just trying to disenfranchise people who did use drugs, i.e., poor black people and leftists.

Time to post it again
Could you tell me what possible benefit could arise from disenfranchising black people and democrats? Anyhow, this quote is completely unverified and not confirmed by any source except the interviewer who just somehow remembered it after Ehrlichman had died.

Drugs have taken a large toll on this country. I live in an area where opioid abuse and underage drug use is rampant, and I can assure you that people aren't against drugs just so they can "disrupt" black communities.
 

Pagusas

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,490
Frisco, Tx
This all sounds great, but how do you convince all the people who see illegal immigration as a serious problem that this a good idea? I don’t want to hear those people don’t matter, because those people vote in droves and got us Trump, ignoring them will only get Trump re-elected. I’m constantly trying to think how one shifts the view of those voters just enough to get some out of the crazy bin into the “I’ll listen with an open mind” bin.

So I ask, what is the realistic way to communicate this in a way to voters who can be swayed to help him win? I fear the right will have a very easy time tearing this apart.
 

Televator

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,739
BERNIE HAS ABOLISHMENT OF ICE ON THE AGENDA

Fuck everyone else. Fuck a heart attack. This is my candidate for the primary. Gotta be Bernie
 

pigeon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,181
So then there would be no benefit to entering the country legally? If we're just going to give everyone who jumps the border legal status, why don't we go ahead and open the flood gates already?
You're absolutely right. We should open the borders and allow anybody* to immediately become an American citizen. It's the only morally or economically sensible thing to do.

Bernie's plan is a very good stepping stone while we work on building the constituency for that.

edit: Also thank God Bernie is such a flip-flopper on immigration, am I right? This was a big problem with his platform in the past.


* I mean do a check if they're a murderer fleeing justice first, but that should be about the limit of our barriers.
 

Dream Machine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,276
This all sounds great, but how do you convince all the people who see illegal immigration as a serious problem that this a good idea? I don’t want to hear those people don’t matter, because those people vote in droves and got us Trump, ignoring them will only get Trump re-elected. I’m constantly trying to think how one shifts the view of those voters just enough to get some out of the crazy bin into the “I’ll listen with an open mind” bin.

So I ask, what is the realistic way to communicate this in a way to voters who can be swayed to help him win? I fear the right will have a very easy time tearing this apart.
Tell the fucked up stories about what ICE does and say "we're not doing that, but we will still have border security"
 

Pagusas

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,490
Frisco, Tx
Why do they think illegal immigration is a serious problem?
Because that’s what they’ve been brainwashed to believe by certain parties of the media, the far right, Trump and some need a scape goat to blame. That’s what we’re all fighting, brain washing and false information. I don’t know the answer to solve it, I’m just posing the question.
 

2Bee

or not 2B
Moderator
Oct 27, 2017
6,239
Illegal immigration benefits the big corporations because they get to pay them lower wages and immigrants are usually afraid to make any complaints about work conditions so they get away with treating them like shit as well.

I'm glad Bernie is taking this initiative, we should have open borders, and give those willing to come here to work the rights and wages they deserve as well.
 

pigeon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,181
Because that’s what they’ve been brainwashed to believe by certain parties of the media, the far right, Trump and some need a scape goat to blame. That’s what we’re all fighting, brain washing and false information. I don’t know the answer to solve it, I’m just posing the question.
No, I meant specifically. You’re asking how to engage with people who genuinely believe illegal immigration is a problem. I’m saying you can’t begin without understanding their justification. This is why I constantly just say we should have open borders — I want other people to explain why they think it would be a bad idea!

You will probably find that a good number of them say something about national “character.” They probably oppose expanding legal immigration too. Not to put too fine a point on it, those guys are racists. Engaging with them requires dealing with fundamental moral questions like the equality of all humanity and our implied duties. I am not really sanguine about convincing those guys.

But for people who have some non-racist answer, you can always try data. Immigrants commit less crime, produce economic benefit for all Americans, create new jobs by consuming goods and services, and generally feel more positively about American values than Americans. If you care about any of those things you should want to open the borders.
 

Aphexian

Member
Oct 26, 2017
307
I kinda wish that the minimum wage would be a bit higher. $15/hour doesn't feel the same as it was during the last presidential election. I only say this because I KNOW that almost all business will just pay the minimum and not use it as a baseline to go up from proactively. I mean it's better than the current one by a fucking long shot, but we had that one for far too long. I almost feel that the minimum wage should get a "cost of living" raise each year. If businesses want it go to down help fix the economic crisis.
 

Josh5890

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,305
I am all for getting rid of ICE, but I believe you still need some form of Customs Border Patrol
 

muteKi

Member
Oct 22, 2018
10,415
a sunken pirate ship
Could you tell me what possible benefit could arise from disenfranchising black people and democrats?
You need me to explain the fundamentals of election rigging and political imprisonment? The quote may be manufactured but even so the statistics of enforcement of drug crimes speak for itself (stuff like marijuana is used in equal levels by most ethnic groups, but it's minorities who actually get arrested on felony charges)
 

Lord of Ostia

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,609
I am all for getting rid of ICE, but I believe you still need some form of Customs Border Patrol
Customs? Sure. Boarder patrol? Maybe, but they could use some serious reform (like most law enforcement in this country). Sanders' proposal has nothing to do with CBP though
You need me to explain the fundamentals of election rigging and political imprisonment? The quote may be manufactured but even so the statistics of enforcement of drug crimes speak for itself (stuff like marijuana is used in equal levels by most ethnic groups, but it's minorities who actually get arrested on felony charges)
Don't bother, seems like they were just trolling.
 

Josh5890

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,305
Customs? Sure. Boarder patrol? Maybe, but they could use some serious reform (like most law enforcement in this country). Sanders' proposal has nothing to do with CBP though
CBP is in the title of the thread and in the OP

To break up ICE and CBP, under Sanders’s platform, their functions would be redistributed to other federal agencies.
I'm all for reform. Maybe you split them up. But they do serve a necessity.