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Griffith

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,585
I may have worded my point confusingly then so I'll lay out the intention behind the quoted post as clearly as I can I guess

I have a problem with your post because it carries the implication that thinking a candidate is too old isn't a universial thing. If somone applies it to Bernie they probably apply it to Trump and Biden too. I know I do.

Then I don't understand your reasoning. I understand that the health of a candidate might be a concern for the stability of a country but I think judging a candidate solely on an arbitrary thing like age would be wrong.

I would vote for Bernie just as soon as I would vote for Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. Not because of their age, not because on is too old or too young, but because of the strength of their ideas.
 

Kitsunelaine

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,382
Then I don't understand your reasoning. I understand that the health of a candidate might be a concern for the stability of a country but I think judging a candidate solely on an arbitrary thing like age would be wrong.

I would vote for Bernie just as soon as I would vote for Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. Not because of their age, not because on is too old or too young, but because of the strength of their ideas.

Age is not an arbitrary thing, especially for such a strenuous role as being president of the united states, a position in which one has to make many life or death decisions with very little break time (despite what Donald Trump is doing to the position right now, of course). We are all human and the way age affects us is not something any of us can control or predict. It becomes more unpredictable the older we get and we can't help it impacting our ability to do things we desperately want to do. The presidency is a potentially 8 year long job, and it is notorious for aging people incredibly. If you're not taking it into account, you're not doing your job as a citizen to vote in the most appropriate candidate for the position. You aren't just electing a VP to fill in the role later. You're electing a Big P. A capital P. A P you want to last. A P you can't hold in. A P that goes all the way. A P that stretches out into it's maximum potential.
 

Griffith

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,585
Age is not an arbitrary thing, especially for such a strenuous role as being president of the united states, a position in which one has to make many life or death decisions with very little break time (despite what Donald Trump is doing to the position right now, of course). We are all human and the way age affects us is not something any of us can control or predict. It becomes more unpredictable the older we get and we can't help it impacting our ability to do things we desperately want to do.

I agree with you. If I saw any sign that his health might be an impediment to his ability to rule the country I would share your concern, but I haven't. Somehow though I have more trust in Bernie's health than the "perfectly healthy" President.
 

Kitsunelaine

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,382
I agree with you. If I saw any sign that his health might be an impediment to his ability to rule the country I would share your concern, but I haven't.

That's a short sighted way of thinking about age that only takes into account the year we're living in. Not the years to come.

I'm sad you missed my edited in pee jokes, by the way.
 

Ichthyosaurus

Banned
Dec 26, 2018
9,375
I find it funny that some people find Bernie's age ridiculous, as if that was an impediment for his ability to govern while at the same time forgetting how old the leader of the Republican party is.

If the implication is that somehow he might be senile, people should remember who is actually in the White House.

Were I American he would be one of the candidates I'd most likely vote for. In my opinion America needs a candidate with strong ideas to fix its problems, just like it took a candidate with strong ideas to create or worsen them. I wouldn't vote for a Democrat with lukewarm ideas.

The leader of the GOP is Donald Trump, I prefer to hold up my party's POTUS standards higher than him. We deserve better than a senile old man in the White House. Considering how stressful and multifaceted the job is must be a consideration, this is certainly Trump is certainly not doing - all he's doing is visiting Mar-A-Largo, watching Fox News/CNN and golfing and he still looks like shit. Strong ideas don't have any means with a president who is too old to carry it out.

I agree with you. If I saw any sign that his health might be an impediment to his ability to rule the country I would share your concern, but I haven't. Somehow though I have more trust in Bernie's health than the "perfectly healthy" President.

The dude's nearly 80 years old, there is no "perfectly healthy" person on the planet that fits that description. You're underestimating how stressful the job is.
 

tommy7154

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,370
Good to hear that he does have support globally and it's not just here. I thought it was the case from what I've read, but I may be reading biased stuff since I'm a supporter.
 

Kitsunelaine

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,382
Good to hear that he does have support and it's not just here. I thought it was the case from what I've read but I may be reading biased stuff since I'm a supporter.

Well, it's less that he has the support on his own merits and more that the left in general (Including HRC at the time) has support because all of us pretty much fucking loathe Republicans and dems are the opposition party. I don't think he would be as known or as favourable around the world had he ran as an independent, even if he had the same ammount of airtime as he did when he was running as a dem.
 

Griffith

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,585
The leader of the GOP is Donald Trump, I prefer to hold up my party's POTUS standards higher than him. We deserve better than a senile old man in the White House. Considering how stressful and multifaceted the job is must be a consideration, this is certainly Trump is certainly not doing - all he's doing is visiting Mar-A-Largo, watching Fox News/CNN and golfing and he still looks like shit. Strong ideas don't have any means with a president who is too old to carry it out.

I just want to clarify that by "leader" I meant the position that holds that name, Senate Leader.

The dude's nearly 80 years old, there is no "perfectly healthy" person on the planet that fits that description. You're underestimating how stressful the job is.

I'm not underestimating how stressful the position is, I'm stressing that so far he's presented the ideas I consider the best and strongest for the future of the United States and the well-being of its people.

If you want to bicker about his age that's fine but don't be surprised if you end up with 4 more years of Trump/Pence and "but his age!" becomes the new "but her e-mails!"
 

Kitsunelaine

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,382
I'm not underestimating how stressful the position is, I'm stressing that so far he's presented the ideas I consider the best and strongest for the future of the United States and the well-being of its people.

We actually worry about his ability to excecute those ideas. It's great that he has them, I'm sure. But given that you guys elected Trump we all should be more weary of a person's fitness for office. As much as you might hate having to be.

I'll give you this though, at least you didn't dismiss it as "ageism". I only ever hear that word when talking about Bernie.
 

tommy7154

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,370
Well, it's less that he has the support on his own merits and more that the left in general (Including HRC at the time) has support because all of us pretty much fucking loathe Republicans and dems are the opposition party. I don't think he would be as known or as favourable around the world had he ran as an independent, even if he had the same ammount of airtime as he did when he was running as a dem.
I see. I'll take it! Thanks for your thoughts.
 

Entryhazard

One Winged Slayer
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,843
It's however unfair to assume that everyone goes senile either. There are plenty of elders that retained their mental faculties until they died.
And for such occurrence Sanders would "just" need a strong VP pick
 

Kitsunelaine

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,382
It's however unfair to assume that everyone goes senile either. There are plenty of elders that retained their mental faculties until they died.
And for such occurrence Sanders would "just" need a strong VP pick

If you think that anybody thus far has done that I would very much like to hear an argument as to why. The long and short of it is, a President can't be discused with the same weight as "everyone". That job takes a toll on your mind like no other in the world. It's not about whether or not Bernie is an elder and whether or not he'll go senile-- Not exactly. It's a much more complicated issue than you're making it out to be. There are a lot of factors, and it's those factors that make age a valid quesiton when discussing a presidential candidate.

I don't have anything to add, I just want these phrases to be more acknowledged.

it's important to have fun when discussing incredibly draining and serious topics
 

Griffith

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,585
We actually worry about his ability to excecute those ideas. It's great that he has them, I'm sure. But given that you guys elected Trump we all should be more weary of a person's fitness for office. As much as you might hate having to be.

I'll give you this though, at least you didn't dismiss it as "ageism". I only ever hear that word when talking about Bernie.

Regardless of how you evaluate Trump's health, mental or otherwise, he isn't doing anything that is inconsistent with his campaign promises or the things he has been saying for a long time. I don't understand why you accept that that he is the way he is yet think that Bernie will suddenly change his way of thinking if his age takes a toll on him. He's had one of the longest running and most consistent political careers of any American politician.

No one believes that Trump will change at his age. People dismiss the idea that he could ever be or become better than he is, yet you defend that all of a sudden Bernie could change for the worst and I find that reasoning a bit incoherent.

If his health concerns you that much, wait until he announces who will be his Vice President to see if that person has enough strength to carry his ideals but, again, until he shows any signs that his health is impeding his way of judging or operating properly I think your concern is too preemptive.

it's important to have fun when discussing incredibly draining and serious topics

I see what you did there!
 

Novel

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,933
Regardless of how you evaluate Trump's health, mental or otherwise, he isn't doing anything that is inconsistent with his campaign promises or the things he has been saying for a long time. I don't understand why you accept that that he is the way he is yet think that Bernie will suddenly change his way of thinking if his age takes a toll on him. He's had one of the longest running and most consistent political careers of any American politician.

No one believes that Trump will change at his age. People dismiss the idea that he could ever be or become better than he is, yet you defend that all of a sudden Bernie could change for the worst and I find that reasoning a bit incoherent.

If his health concerns you that much, wait until he announces who will be his Vice President to see if that person has enough strength to carry his ideals but, again, until he shows any signs that his health is impeding his way of judging or operating properly I think your concern is too preemptive.

Honestly my issue with the age complaint is many alternatives the people who make that complaint suggest are in their 70s, approaching their 70s or roughly the same age or older than Bernie already.
Hence why it reeks as ageist.
Regardless, I have to agree with your first point loads.
 

Kitsunelaine

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,382
Regardless of how you evaluate Trump's health, mental or otherwise, he isn't doing anything that is inconsistent with his campaign promises or the things he has been saying for a long time. I don't understand why you accept that that he is the way he is yet think that Bernie will suddenly change his way of thinking if his age takes a toll on him. He's had one of the longest running and most consistent political careers of any American politician.

No one believes that Trump will change at his age. People dismiss the idea that he could ever be or become better than he is, yet you defend that all of a sudden Bernie could change for the worst and I find that reasoning a bit incoherent.

If his health concerns you that much, wait until he announces who will be his Vice President to see if that person has enough strength to carry his ideals but, again, until he shows any signs that his health is impeding his way of judging or operating properly I think your concern is too preemptive.

the problem with discussing the potential of someone becoming senile and using a comparison with trump is that trump is indistinguishable from being senile already

And it's not just mental health that we need to care about but physical health as well. and as I said, I'm not just applying this to Bernie but to Biden as well. Don't want to come across as selective when I'm not.
 
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Griffith

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,585
the problem with discussing the potential of someone becoming senile and using a comparison with trump is that trump is indistinguishable from being senile already
I would sooner question the education and common sense of people that believe he isn't, or wasn't already, when he was running than I would question whether he is or not. Regardless of which is the case, it didn't impede him from following upon his promises, so I don't understand why you think it would impede Bernie who has shown no such signs and has had a very consistent political career.

I'm trying to follow your reasoning but it just doesn't add up in my opinion.
 

Kitsunelaine

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,382
I would sooner question the education and common sense of people that believe he isn't, or wasn't already, when he was running than I would question whether he is or not. Regardless of which is the case, it didn't impede him from following upon his promises, so I don't understand why you think it would impede Bernie who has shown no such signs and has had a very consistent political career.

I'm trying to follow your reasoning but it just doesn't add up in my opinion.

Trump is seen as "doing shit" because Trump has a senate that wanted everything he wanted before he did and the power to enforce it, and they may largely be acting on their own with Trump spending most of his time screaming at the television

You can't use Trump as a barometer for this and I think it's aspirational for you to try but rather misguided
 

Ichthyosaurus

Banned
Dec 26, 2018
9,375
I just want to clarify that by "leader" I meant the position that holds that name, Senate Leader.

Bernie isn't running for Senate Leader, he's running for president.

I'm not underestimating how stressful the position is, I'm stressing that so far he's presented the ideas I consider the best and strongest for the future of the United States and the well-being of its people.

If you want to bicker about his age that's fine but don't be surprised if you end up with 4 more years of Trump/Pence and "but his age!" becomes the new "but her e-mails!"

Yes, you are. He's not simply "presenting ideas" he's leading the country. Which involves trade disputes, meeting with foreign leaders, articulating foreign policy, green lighting military missions, passing legislation through congress, analysing and acting on intelligence and so much more. This discussion isn't about how he sells his ideas, it's how he governs - and people will live and die based on how his decisions.

This implies Bernie is the only candidate who can save us from Trump, I disagree. It would be a sad state in the US were that true because he's nearly 80 years old. That alone should disqualify him. The same goes for Biden and other very old candidates. Hillary's emails were bullshit, Bernie is not immune for age. It's not his age that worries me, it's the side affects of what that'll do to his mind and body. POTUS is a job which is infamous for turning people's hair white from the stress, and you're fine doing that to an old man?
 

Griffith

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,585
Trump is seen as "doing shit" because Trump has a senate that wanted everything he wanted before he did and the power to enforce it and may largely be acting on their own with Trump spending most of his time screaming at the television

You can't use Trump as a barometer for this and I think it's aspirational for you to try but rather misguided

But I wasn't. Honestly you're confusing me at this point. I'm going to reiterate my original point and leave this conversation at that.

I don't think age alone should be the main factor deciding whether or not a person is fit for presidency. I agree that their health is a concern but, until there are signs that their health might present an obstacle to their ability to run you should reserve judgement on it. I would prefer for there to be younger candidates running for President, like AOC, but I think that you should vote on a candidate based on their ideas and political carer, not their age alone.
 

Deleted member 135

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,682
God damn it. Fucker is too old (so is Biden). Bernie should really be using his influence to elevate a "successor" to his legacy.
 

Novel

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,933
Nobody is doing that, yet I see it too much from the left when those demographics vote for non-leftists. Or don't centrist women and minorities count?

It happened all the time at the old place. It has happened here from time to time (including in this thread). I've seen it happen elsewhere online quite often. I've had it happen to me irl. Centrists do it all the time to leftist minorities and women. Thanks for denying the erasure though.
 

Kitsunelaine

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,382
But I wasn't. Honestly you're confusing me at this point. I'm going to reiterate my original point and leave this conversation at that.

I don't think age alone should be the main factor deciding whether or not a person is fit for presidency. I agree that their health is a concern but, until there are signs that their health might present an obstacle to their ability to run you should reserve judgement on it. I would prefer for there to be younger candidates running for President, like AOC, but I think that you should vote on a candidate based on their ideas and political carer, not their age alone.

Nobody is saying age alone is the main factor in deciding fitness for presidency. What we're saying is that it's important to consider. Ideas are meaningless unless followed by action. You need to reasonably assess a candidate's ability to perform their job in order to know whether or not they will be fit for it. This includes

-Age
-Ability to work with others
-Ability to work with congress and senate, which depends on anticipating a multitude of factors we can't account for knowing with any sense of certainty whatsoever
-Whether or not policy can be realistically implimented without massive compromise
-Whether or not the message isn't just economically responsible but also socially responsible (if you care about being a leftist at all)
-Image
-Legacy (if the candidate is unable to fulfil promises, how will this impact the party's future prospects and the voting bloc's engagement)
-etc
-etc
-etc
-etc

too much to discuss

too much to lay out

not easy to boil down into a soundbite but you tried anyway
 

Hugare

Banned
Aug 31, 2018
1,853
I'm not even north american and I know for sure that he doesn't have what it takes to beat Trump
 

Ichthyosaurus

Banned
Dec 26, 2018
9,375
It happened all the time at the old place. It has happened here. I've seen it happen elsewhere online. I've had it happen to me irl. Centrists do it all the time to leftist minorities and women. Thanks for denying the erasure though.

This isn't the old place. In this very thread someone told you that they got this from leftists, as well. Did you believe them? I'm not denying it happened but framing it that it's only centrists doing this is not true. What I said was true about leftists erasing women and minority centrists, as well. If you think leftists are perfect 24/7 with eradicating sexism and racism among themselves you are very, very wrong.

Nodobdy is doing that, except well...many people in this very thread.

Receipts, please.
 

Griffith

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,585
Bernie isn't running for Senate Leader, he's running for president.

You misunderstood what I said, let me clarify:

I find it funny that some people find Bernie's age ridiculous, as if that was an impediment for his ability to govern while at the same time forgetting how old the (SENATE) leader of the Republican party is..

Yes, you are. He's not simply "presenting ideas" he's leading the country. Which involves trade disputes, meeting with foreign leaders, articulating foreign policy, green lighting military missions, passing legislation through congress, analysing and acting on intelligence and so much more. This discussion isn't about how he sells his ideas, it's how he governs - and people will live and die based on how his decisions.

There's a lot to unpack here so let me take it by steps.

We can bicker back and forth about whether or not I underestimate it and it won't get us anywhere so I'll just quote myself:

I don't think age alone should be the main factor deciding whether or not a person is fit for presidency. I agree that their health is a concern but, until there are signs that their health might present an obstacle to their ability to run you should reserve judgement on it. I would prefer for there to be younger candidates running for President, like AOC, but I think that you should vote on a candidate based on their ideas and political carer, not their age alone.

Next:

This implies Bernie is the only candidate who can save us from Trump, I disagree. It would be a sad state in the US were that true because he's nearly 80 years old. That alone should disqualify him. The same goes for Biden and other very old candidates. Hillary's emails were bullshit, Bernie is not immune for age. It's not his age that worries me, it's the side affects of what that'll do to his mind and body. POTUS is a job which is infamous for turning people's hair white from the stress, and you're fine doing that to an old man?

I'm just going to remind you of my first response on this thread:

Were I American he would be one of the candidates I'd most likely vote for.

As for your age/health argument, I don't agree with it for the reasons I already explained in my own quote.
 

LosDaddie

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,622
Longwood, FL
Count me among those who believe Bernie is too old. Same goes for Biden.

2 dusty ass old white dudes from the NE just aren't going to excite the base.

But if Bernie can move the other candidates to the Left, then I think that's a good thing.

There's no tangible proof that it did. Nor was that something agreed upon by the candidates.
And most Bernie supporters went with her in the end.
Her issues were with how her campaign was managed and how she never went to key states.
And the Republican propaganda that was against her for decades.
Can we please stop looking to blame the left for why Hillary lost?

There's still a ton of bitterness leftover from 2016. Most of these people lived in the GAF OT bubble that told them Bernie Bros were why Trump won.

You can point out the fact that more Bernie voters went for Hilary in 2016 than Hillary voters went for Obama in 08, and it still won't matter. They don't realize that they're swinging at electoral statistical noise that most ignore. There's really not any GOP voters on Era (or GAF before), so Bernie voters appear to be next closest proximity.
 

kambaybolongo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,028
This isn't the old place. In this very thread someone told you that they got this from leftists, as well. Did you believe them? I'm not denying it happened but framing it that it's only centrists doing this is not true. What I said was true about leftists erasing women and minority centrists, as well. If you think leftists are perfect 24/7 with eradicating sexism and racism among themselves you are very, very wrong.



Receipts, please.
Look through the thread, especially the older pages. There was a fair amount of it.
 

Zombegoast

Member
Oct 30, 2017
14,224

Griffith

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,585
Nobody is saying age alone is the main factor in deciding fitness for presidency. What we're saying is that it's important to consider. Ideas are meaningless unless followed by action. You need to reasonably assess a candidate's ability to perform their job in order to know whether or not they will be fit for it. This includes

-Age
-Ability to work with others
-Ability to work with congress and senate, which depends on anticipating a multitude of factors we can't account for knowing with any sense of certainty whatsoever
-Whether or not policy can be realistically implimented without massive compromise
-Whether or not the message isn't just economically responsible but also socially responsible (if you care about being a leftist at all)
-Image
-Legacy (if the candidate is unable to fulfil promises, how will this impact the party's future prospects and the voting bloc's engagement)
-etc
-etc
-etc
-etc

too much to discuss

too much to lay out

not easy to boil down into a soundbite but you tried anyway

I think Bernie's tremendously successful grass-roots campaign should be a testament to his ability to work with and coordinate others. As for how he would work with congress I imagine he would have many disputes with them because they wouldn't agree on many issues, but discussing and bringing those issues to light would help drive them forward which is why other Democrat candidates have adopted a lot of those same ideas.

I don't expect it would all be rainbows and sunshine, with politics it never is, but I do believe he would get the job done and help make America truly better.
 

Deleted member 11069

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,001
God damn it. Fucker is too old (so is Biden). Bernie should really be using his influence to elevate a "successor" to his legacy.

Same. Had an argument with my wife about it, she thinks his age is no problem.
I on the other hand do not even want people to drive once they reach close to 80. At least not without some testing.
So yeah, make him put someone else over. You need an american Justin Trudeau that can make Trump look like the old fool he is.
Bland and populist.
 

Ichthyosaurus

Banned
Dec 26, 2018
9,375
Same. Had an argument with my wife about it, she thinks his age is no problem.
I on the other hand do not even want people to drive once they reach close to 80. At least not without some testing.
So yeah, make him put someone else over. You need an american Justin Trudeau that can make Trump look like the old fool he is.
Bland and populist.

Fuck yeah, give me a American Justin Trudeau - we could use someone like that, badly.
 

Mr. Shakedown

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,112
Cincinnati, OH
I love how this post implicitly exonerates racist white Americans who love white supremacy and voted for Trump en-masse.

The racists were always there and he spoke to them. I'll give your point that, but Trump won the election with less votes than Romney lost with in 2012. Hillary did not inspire anyone to get out and vote. That's not Russia's fault, nor is it Bernie Sanders' or Jill Stein's.

And lmao I'm not exonerating shit, get the fuck out of here.
 

Drek

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,231
Eh. If he wins the primary I'll vote for him but he's still a fucking moron. None of his policies have any real substance and every time he and his team try to flesh them out with substance they concoct some of the single worst implementations of policy I've seen a career politician suggest.


There's no tangible proof that it did. Nor was that something agreed upon by the candidates.
And most Bernie supporters went with her in the end.
Her issues were with how her campaign was managed and how she never went to key states.
And the Republican propaganda that was against her for decades.
Can we please stop looking to blame the left for why Hillary lost?
Bernie Sanders very likely did cost Hillary Clinton the Presidency.

His core supporters are far enough left that yes, they did show up.

His campaigning through the rust belt on the same issues as Trump (thinly veiled isolationism most overtly manifested in an opposition to TPP) lured a non-trivial amount of white, working class voters who normally turn out D to either not vote or to vote Trump.

White working class voters in strong union states had their worst D turnout and best R turnout in literally decades. Sanders spent almost a year lobbing anti-establishment Dem bombs to those exact people using lines that sounded straight out of a Trump stump speech.

Then the entire election turns on a few hundred thousand of those people either voting against union interests or just not voting in Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania.

The far left core primary supporter showed up. Great. That wasn't where Sanders did damage. He did damage by attacking the "centrist" Dems when the party needed to be united against Trump's isolationist message.

And now the U.S. likely also missed a significant economic win as the rest of the TPP nations have moved on without us. Another example of how he's a fucking moron I might add, as the TPP was a gigantic win for U.S. economic interests.
 
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