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Boss

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
951
What are the major differences between Warren and Sanders?
They both seem similar but Warren messed up with the whole Native American thing and sounding like Tim Cook.
There are a lot of differences between them, like someone else said, Bernie goes further to the left than Warren. Something that sticks with me is that Warren is tip-toeing around the issue of healthcare, while Bernie is unequivocal about delivering healthcare as a right through medicare for all.
 

AdamE

3D Character Artist
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
1,044
Japan
I think they wanted details...not platitudes.

For instance, Warren's Green New Deal would seek to raise 2 trillion while Sander's would seek 16.3 trillion. I think framing it in simple ideological terms like that is simplistic. It puts too much credince in abstract thinking. The Green New Deal alone, if underpinned by a just transition would be pretty radical in terms of socio-economic implications if implimented.

So basically Warren is very left leaning but Sanders is far more?
I mean as an outsider, they both sound good to me
There are a lot of differences between them, like someone else said, Bernie goes further to the left than Warren. Something that sticks with me is that Warren is tip-toeing around the issue of healthcare, while Bernie is unequivocal about delivering healthcare as a right through medicare for all.

Gotcha, thanks
 

Prodigal Son

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,791
So basically Warren is very left leaning but Sanders is far more?
I mean as an outsider, they both sound good to me


Gotcha, thanks
There's also foreign policy. Sanders has a fairly coherent world-view regarding dismantling US imperialism + solidarity with marginalized groups and leftists internationally. Warren isn't particularly different from the standard democrat on foreign policy from the little of it she's said and done.
 
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Robin

Restless Insomniac
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,502
There are a lot of differences between them, like someone else said, Bernie goes further to the left than Warren. Something that sticks with me is that Warren is tip-toeing around the issue of healthcare, while Bernie is unequivocal about delivering healthcare as a right through medicare for all.

This is true to an extent but it's not so much that Warren is further to the right than Bernie on healthcare. Bernie wrote Medicare for All. Warren is for Medicare for All. The weakness with Warren on the issue is that everyone knows that Warren wants to be seen as pro-establishment and want to get her on record admitting that Medicare for All means a raise to taxes so they can use it and clip it into whatever soundbite they want to hurt her campaign. Sanders wrote the damn bill and it's the tentpole of his campaign and movement, but Warren wants to walk and chew bubblegum at the same time, and has been raked for it, unfairly in my mind.

On the left we all know that there's more to how this will affect the average american than a tax increase but the moderates aren't going to see that and they want her on the record saying it.

I've donated to both the Warren and Sanders campaigns, I haven't made up my mind on the two yet but it's one or the other for me.
 

Vector

Member
Feb 28, 2018
6,640
Warren is coming form the Center towards the Left.
Bernie is coming from the Left towards the Center.

Warren is a reformist who wants to work within the current framework of capitalism to heavily regulate it.
Bernie fancies himself as a revolutionary who wants sweeping, fundamental change.

They end up in the same place on some issues, but Bernie goes way further.
 

Deleted member 82

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,626
So basically Warren is very left leaning but Sanders is far more?
I mean as an outsider, they both sound good to me

Oh, they're both decent, to be sure. You'll find that people who want Bernie here - including myself - pretty much all have Warren as their second best pick. Almost nobody would pick, say, Biden or Harris over Warren if Bernie should lose. At this point, if you fancy yourself an actual leftist and/or a socialist (as opposed to moderate center-left), it's hard to justify supporting anyone other than Sanders or Warren.
 
OP
OP
tommy7154

tommy7154

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,370
A lot of the media doesn't want to shout it but I of course will...this was by far the largest rally for a candidate of this race, with many more in attendance that Warren in Sept., or Harris's announcement crowds of 20,000. I don't see an article on many sites unsurprisingly, but here's one from Politico https://www.politico.com/news/2019/10/19/bernie-sanders-ocasio-cortez-endorsement-rally-051491



This is the real news right here.

Yes that's huge. We've got AOC in New York, Omar in Minnesota...and hopefully many more to come. AOC actively campaigning for him in states like IA and CA could even push him over the edge. I love that some people are coming out and endorsing early. And not only endorsing, but actively working with. It shows that this is the person they truly want to win the nomination and lead the country.
 

Boss

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
951
This is true to an extent but it's not so much that Warren is further to the right than Bernie on healthcare. Bernie wrote Medicare for All. Warren is for Medicare for All. The weakness with Warren on the issue is that everyone knows that Warren wants to be seen as pro-establishment and want to get her on record admitting that Medicare for All means a raise to taxes so they can use it and clip it into whatever soundbite they want to hurt her campaign. Sanders wrote the damn bill and it's the tentpole of his campaign and movement, but Warren wants to walk and chew bubblegum at the same time, and has been raked for it, unfairly in my mind.

I've donated to both the Warren and Sanders campaigns, I haven't made up my mind on the two yet but it's one or the other for me.
It's 1. Bernie and 2. Warren for me and I hope that if Bernie isn't the nominee, it is Warren. I just want her to get specific on the details and commit on what she means when she thinks of Medicare for all and what she wants to implement.
 

zoabs

One Winged Slayer
Avenger
May 7, 2018
1,672
Warren is also pretty centrist/lame in terms of foreign policy especially in the Middle East. (I.e: Iran and Israel)

Main reason I'm picking Bernie over her but they're very similar otherwise in all other areas although Bernie is more extreme (in a good way, in my opinion) in his policies/ideology.
 

Luminish

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,508
Denver
What are the major differences between Warren and Sanders?
They both seem similar but Warren messed up with the whole Native American thing and sounding like Tim Cook.
Biggest is her coalition is built around people very interested in politics, while Bernie's coalition is built around people not very interested in politics. People already interested in politics is definitionally a red ocean and makes it a lot less likely for any change to occur beyond the usual back and forth hot potato of party control of the white house. She also has support of some insiders that has Bernie supporters feel suspicious, but I would note that she was far more aggressive against Obama's worst appointees when he was president than Bernie was.

There's also worries about what she'd do with the military compared to Bernie because she's a lot more timid when it comes to speaking about foreign policy. When you compare issue by issue on concrete policy statements, technically they're the same, but it feels telling when a firebrand like Warren stops being a firebrand about something.

And finally, it seems extremely unlikely that she'd make a big fight about healthcare as a defining issue when she's in office. And given how unlikely it is for Bernie to get anything at all from congress, it might be a good thing to not waste your limited time in office on a issue that's not going to happen any time soon, but Bernie supporters would say it's too important of an issue to give up on prematurely.

Otherwise, I'm pretty sure both would follow through on the list of highly impactful executive orders that Obama didn't do but legally probably could have, which is the main reason why I think Bernie vs Warren is unimportant but Bernie and Warren vs everyone else is important, because I'm pretty sure no one else would go above what Obama did.
 

BADMAN

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,887
What are the major differences between Warren and Sanders?
They both seem similar but Warren messed up with the whole Native American thing and sounding like Tim Cook.

Warren's focus is middle class, Bernie's is working class. Compare their policies, ideology, and rhetoric and it's pretty clear. Bernie wants to spend significantly more money fixing poverty and bailing out the working class.
 

uncelestial

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,060
San Francisco, CA, USA
Except most people (In the US) think socialism is just European social safety nets, which exist because of social homogony which has never existed in the US. If you actually poll people on actual socialism, IE, the end of the capitalist state, end of private ownership of businesses and what they actually entails, there is no way 50% of "young Americans" will support that.
Ah, the "young people don't know what they mean when they say they support socialism" explanation.

Very cool, thanks!
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
Dude I literally quoted you with a very concise explanation regarding that question, and have been talking about it for the last five pages.

I'm criticizing the words that have come out of his mouth, the words he has written down. This conversation is about why Sanders became popular and it morphed into why I don't support him, and the primary reason why I don't support hims is the existential issue of Economic Populism vs. Identity Politics, and the major implications of such the issue that was represented in 2016.
That conflict doesn't actually exist in Sanders' policy though. That's what I find bizarre about your criticisms.

If it was just that, idk, some of his proposals don't seem feasible in the current system then I'd at least get where you are coming from, but saying he doesn't have intersectional politics? That's just demonstrably false.
 

bytesized

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,882
Amsterdam
I'm not from the US but I really really hope Bernie ends up winning the nomination. I think he's the only one that can easily beat Trump and be an inspiration for left leaning politicians around the world that are also struggling to defeat alt-right proto fascist governments or movements. Also, I kind of think climate change could really get out of control even with just one more Trump term, he's so damaging on multiple levels.
 

Chaos Legion

The Wise Ones
Member
Oct 30, 2017
16,909
Yeah I'm in favor of banning guns but I don't think many of the candidates have committed too that. Who is your preferred candidate?
It was Beto the moment he announced and the first person I've ever donated to for their campaign.
Him doubling down on a politically unpopular viewpoint has only made me like him more. I'll wait until any of the other candidates grow a backbone to support the career suicide that is reigning in gun violence.
 

Deleted member 18360

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,844
Yes, in the US, it's a safe assumption that they don't.

Especially if they get their socialism from Sanders, who isn't socialist!

I don't think that's a safe assumption at all. If anything I'd think that the generation of kids who saw the corporate buyouts from the last recession and are being faced with catastrophic climate change are ten years later reflecting on their paltry opportunities. You don't even have to read these days to develop class consciousness, even if it's somewhat nascent or not fully articulated. And I'm not sure these people have any reason to believe in 'accountable capitalism' given that capitalism has had ample time to be accountable and yet and for some reason it never seems to happen...

And if you observe the overt philosophical influences present in the things that Sanders says, it seems apparent that Bernie is about as radical as the office he is running for could currently allow. Whether you agree with the strategy or not, Bernie is ostensibly for a workers movement, which is frankly much bigger than him or any other politician, and which cuts a clear distinction from Warren's technocratic 'I have a plan for that'. And if I'm being charitable, I'm not sure why you'd wholly gloss over this distinction unless you just aren't sensitive to these arguments or rhetoric at all, in which case you're not really an adequate judge.
 
Dec 9, 2018
20,973
New Jersey
I feel like this is a turning point for Bernie's campaign. For a few months, Bernie has been stagnant and statistically dipped in the polls, going to third place and sometimes even fourth. However, after this rally and a juggernaut endorsement from one of the most popular faces in politics right now, I honestly think it's likely that Bernie will win the nomination if he keeps this momentum and strengthens his outreach. Bernie 2020 is significantly larger than 2016, and my bold (and potentially false) prediction is from here on out he will win the nomination with Obama 2008-like energy.
 

BADMAN

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,887
I feel like this is a turning point for Bernie's campaign. For a few months, Bernie has been stagnant and statistically dipped in the polls, going to third place and sometimes even fourth. However, after this rally and a juggernaut endorsement from one of the most popular faces in politics right now, I honestly think it's likely that Bernie will win the nomination if he keeps this momentum and strengthens his outreach. Bernie 2020 is significantly larger than 2016, and my bold (and potentially false) prediction is from here on out he will win the nomination with Obama 2008-like energy.
I'm right there with you. This is the turning point moment that we were hoping for. As long as the momentum keeps building from here, he has the nomination.
 

Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,220
There's polls asking what people think socialism means and Democrats by-and-large just associate it with "equality" for everyone.
Like this?
When asked to explain their understanding of the term "socialism," 17% of Americans define it as government ownership of the means of production, half the number who defined it this way in 1949 when Gallup first asked about Americans' views of the term. Americans today are most likely to define socialism as connoting equality for everyone, while others understand the term as meaning the provision of benefits and social services, a modified form of communism, or a conception of socialism as people being social and getting along with one another. About a quarter of Americans were not able to give an answer.
Less people today have an understanding of what socialism means than in 1949.
 

Conciliator

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,123
Young people have grown up in a world where they get 1000 different definitions of what socialism is depending on what's convenient for the entity defining it. They're told that expanding food stamps would be socialism, and they say "well guess I'm a socialist." Then they get asked why they want to live in Maoist China. By trying to tie mild expansions of social welfare policies to 20th century autocratic regimes, the word has lost any consistent meaning for most people.

When young people say they're socialist, they do mean something closer to social democrat, or...democratic socialist(the difference between those is a whole nother can of mixed definitions). But ultimately it's a mix of the remnants of Cold War propaganda and various media and politicians playing extremely fast and loose with the term for years and years. Like if you went and asked 100 people on the street what 'socialism' means, you'd definitely get several dozen different answers.

Point being I guess is that socialism can't simultaneously be "when the government does stuff" and "same as communism" and "a strong social safety net" and "the opposite of capitalism" and "nazi ideology" and "a democratic worker-controlled economy" and "that dern common core the schools are teaching my kids" and "what Bernie supports." Or it can, I suppose, but then it ultimately means nothing.
 

jim-jam bongs

Member
Oct 25, 2017
182
I feel like this is a turning point for Bernie's campaign. For a few months, Bernie has been stagnant and statistically dipped in the polls, going to third place and sometimes even fourth. However, after this rally and a juggernaut endorsement from one of the most popular faces in politics right now, I honestly think it's likely that Bernie will win the nomination if he keeps this momentum and strengthens his outreach. Bernie 2020 is significantly larger than 2016, and my bold (and potentially false) prediction is from here on out he will win the nomination with Obama 2008-like energy.
I'm right there with you. This is the turning point moment that we were hoping for. As long as the momentum keeps building from here, he has the nomination.

WJKWoCK.gif
 
OP
OP
tommy7154

tommy7154

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,370
I feel like this is a turning point for Bernie's campaign. For a few months, Bernie has been stagnant and statistically dipped in the polls, going to third place and sometimes even fourth. However, after this rally and a juggernaut endorsement from one of the most popular faces in politics right now, I honestly think it's likely that Bernie will win the nomination if he keeps this momentum and strengthens his outreach. Bernie 2020 is significantly larger than 2016, and my bold (and potentially false) prediction is from here on out he will win the nomination with Obama 2008-like energy.
I like the way you think. I'm probably not as optimistic, but I sure hope you're right.
 

danm999

Member
Oct 29, 2017
17,096
Sydney
Young people have grown up in a world where they get 1000 different definitions of what socialism is depending on what's convenient for the entity defining it. They're told that expanding food stamps would be socialism, and they say "well guess I'm a socialist." Then they get asked why they want to live in Maoist China. By trying to tie mild expansions of social welfare policies to 20th century autocratic regimes, the word has lost any consistent meaning for most people.

When young people say they're socialist, they do mean something closer to social democrat, or...democratic socialist(the difference between those is a whole nother can of mixed definitions). But ultimately it's a mix of the remnants of Cold War propaganda and various media and politicians playing extremely fast and loose with the term for years and years. Like if you went and asked 100 people on the street what 'socialism' means, you'd definitely get several dozen different answers.

Point being I guess is that socialism can't simultaneously be "when the government does stuff" and "same as communism" and "a strong social safety net" and "the opposite of capitalism" and "nazi ideology" and "a democratic worker-controlled economy" and "that dern common core the schools are teaching my kids" and "what Bernie supports." Or it can, I suppose, but then it ultimately means nothing.

images
 

Bluelote

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,024
not American here, but I really admire Bernie and his campaign and ideals, I find puzzling the lack of support for him over here
if Bernie got elected it would be one of the biggest events in political history for the entire world.
 

Gully Bully

Member
Aug 19, 2019
145
That's a bit harsh, he had a movie out like last year. He just got disowned by a lot of liberals for being critical of Obama.

It is those so-called "liberals" who should, in turn, get disowned for failing to be critical of Obama, then.

What they continue to stubbornly fail to acknowledge is that Trump is a referendum on Obama, just as Obama was a referendum on George W. Bush, and Hillary Clinton had to pay the price just like John McCain before her.

Obama lives long enough to see himself become obsolete as the torch bearer of progressive movement. His endorsements don't mean shit anymore, while AOC's endorsement is an adrenaline shot in the arm.

Were these "liberals" you speak of to have their way, we'll get to watch another Obama special in Joe Biden tally another Democratic loss to Trump on November 3, 2020. May God save us all on that day.
 

Madison

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,388
Lima, Peru
Obama lives long enough to see himself become obsolete as the torch bearer of progressive movement. His endorsements don't mean shit anymore, while AOC's endorsement is an adrenaline shot in the arm.
Lol what? Dems still love Obama, theres no proof that shows that his endorsements arent worth anything.

AOC has endorsed losers, Obama has endorsed winners, no idea where your statement comes from.

Biden has been leading for months purely because of being Obama"s VP. Can you imagine how unstoppable he would be if Obama had actually endorsed him? The gesture of "remember Obama" was enough for Biden poll at 40% when he announced. If Joe was like, five years younger he would have won comfortably.

Theres a lot to criticize Obama about but this idea that AOC has some secret endorsement sauce when compared to the 60% approved former president of the US is just absurd
 

brainchild

Independent Developer
Verified
Nov 25, 2017
9,478
I don't understand what people are talking about with the "AOC was nervous" comments. Is it just because she flubbed a couple of lines? Everybody does that, it doesn't mean someone is nervous because of it.

Having said that, I think just about anyone would be a little nervous speaking to a crowd of 25,000+ people.
 

BADMAN

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,887
not American here, but I really admire Bernie and his campaign and ideals, I find puzzling the lack of support for him over here
if Bernie got elected it would be one of the biggest events in political history for the entire world.
A lot of people don't want a political revolution because it challenges a structure that they trust in (for the most part) and perhaps benefit from. There's also a fear that it would cause unrest with the moderate independents that could lead to another term for Trump. All of this being propagated by corporate media and pundits. There's also the reactionary social media issue where vocal fans of both sides harass and bully their political opposites which causes people to react negatively towards the candidates themselves. And that's not to mention the 2016 kerfuffle that created a bitter divide between Clinton and Bernie supporters which never fully healed.

There's a lot of white noise that drowns out the importance of what Sanders is doing here. It's understandable but unfortunate none the less. I'm not too worried about it though. Perpetually online Bernie haters don't make up a particularly large amount of the voting block. It'll all come down to momentum, mobilization, and a clear message that Sanders is the candidate for the working class and that middle class prosperity comes from the bottom up. I think that message will win out at the end of the day.
 

brainchild

Independent Developer
Verified
Nov 25, 2017
9,478
For all the armchair pundits trying to figure out AOC's strategic basis for endorsing Bernie:



She says there isn't one. For her, it's not about political calculus, it's about being authentic.