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Deleted member 11413

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It's an argument to have though. He might be right. I tend to think tackling socio-economic issues is a better focus, because you can't legislate racism out of existence. I can't think of any law congress could pass that would change a racist's mind. I don't disagree with identity politics, but I don't think you can tackle these issues directly.
Correct, the government has more power to regulate the economy, corporations, and billionaires than it does to regulate the minds of racists. Of course, the government DOES have power to change the ways systemic racism manifests in the government (social welfare, justice system, education, etc.) but you know...Bernie talks about those things too.
 

Deleted member 11413

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Hey, uhhh, how about fuck that?

Change racists mind? No, you create laws to protect people against racism, against institutional prejudice. You create laws to shut people the fuck up and force people to put a facade and make the action of discrimination illegal.

What you're saying is like arguing the the Civil Right's Act, because it's pure identity politics, might not "have been the way to tackle racism".
Yeah and Bernie supports civil rights legislation, anti-discrimination policies, and combatting systemic racism inside the system of governance we have. The entire basis of this argument is that Bernie is bad on intersectional politics...which is not true.
 

Tukarrs

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,817

Here's Cornel West's expanded thoughts on Trump, building on that tweet.

Edit: it was before the tweet.

Excerpt:
Brother Bernie and Brother Trump are authentic human beings in stark contrast to their donor-driven opponents. Yet only Bernie has authenticity and integrity, whereas Trump is for real but not for right. Trump's attacks on precious Mexican brothers and sisters are unconscionable -- even as his blessed mother was born in Scotland and grandfather (Mr. Drumpf) was born in Germany. His kind of nativistic hostility could have excluded them. And Trump's unpatriotic complicity with the plutocratic corruption of our political system for over 30 years calls into question his integrity, including his commitment to "make America great again."
 
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cDNA

Member
Oct 25, 2017
916
He was calling him a neo-facist but he both sides'd the shit out of it
With video:




The world would be no better of a place if Trump hadn't started locking up migrants and Hillary was in charge instead. Yeeeaaaahhhh....
He was calling him a neo-facist but he both sides'd the shit out of it
With video:




The world would be no better of a place if Trump hadn't started locking up migrants and Hillary was in charge instead. Yeeeaaaahhhh....
This opotunist accepted a seat in the DNC platform committee months earlier. So he have a say in everything he was critizing in this interview.
 

mangopositive

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
2,435
Hey, uhhh, how about fuck that?

Change racists mind? No, you create laws to protect people against racism, against institutional prejudice. You create laws to shut people the fuck up and force people to put a facade and make the action of discrimination illegal.

What you're saying is like arguing the the Civil Right's Act, because it's pure identity politics, might not "have been the way to tackle racism".

Of course you make laws to protect people from racism. But that's not going to stop racism. Economic equity might.
 

Tetra-Grammaton-Cleric

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Oct 28, 2017
8,958
The issue is his message and own words presents that he believes economic issues inherently trump social issues, even if he thinks that by solving economic inequality it will bring forth social equality.

That's an inherent non starter with me because I think it lacks insight on the actual core issue this nation faces, one that he fails to recognize when he keeps parroting why the US doesn't have nationalized healthcare, which is a massive portion of this country are fucking racists who flipped their shit when a black POTUS was trying to pass a public option to where one of the old blue dogs of the party killed it. When he makes an excuse about why he lost in the south being "not real progressives" (you know, black Democrats) while celebrating how he cleaned house in caucuses in white rural states, or makes excuse for the voters in Florida for voting in a clearly racist Governor.

He's said the same things over and over, and while he holds progressive values I see him keep making excuses that are not progressive, that tell me he keeps catering to a specific group of people that his message 100% resonates with, the same thing I've been saying in this thread. Which is why when I see him say those things, and I see his pure economist message, I see someone who is specifically catering and crafting his political view that is inherently not intersectionalist, and created to bring in people who would so willingly throw away social progress for economic "progress".

It's why Sanders is an outsider, because his message is completely at odds with the identity politics that drives the Democratic Party. And you can argue that it's a good thing he is an outsider for that reason, but when people repeat the same shit over and over where they openly state that it's the fault of people who cater to "identity politics" that "we're in this mess", that it's the fault of people finally having political voices and say, I call bullshit and inherently fight back against those people taking control of the party.

Again, you are entitled to your interpretation of his platform and ideology, I just don't agree. As others have pointed out to you, his policies are intersectional and designed specifically to insulate and bolster people who have been ignored and marginalized for decades, specifically POC.

I also think it is interesting to note that Bernie has one of the most divergent positions on Israeli-Palestinian conflict and unlike many who purport to be progressive, he's not a fan of killing POC in other countries either.

But if you honestly think Bernie is largely indifferent to these subsets of our society then you clearly must vote your conscience.
 
Oct 27, 2017
995

Here's Cornel West's expanded thoughts on Trump, building on that tweet.

Excerpt:

Perhaps worth noting that the facebook post actually came out first:
Since it has come up, and since some folks may not be aware of the full statement made by West, I'll just note (as I pointed out in a previous thread):

The Facebook post was from the morning of Aug-24-15. On Twitter, later in the day, West apparently put out the same statement, starting with the "Social movements in the streets..." sentence (the 6th sentence from the Facebook post), as part of a series of 18 separate tweets, from 10:02PM EST on Aug-24-15 to 10:12PM EST on Aug-24-15.
 

Deleted member 8561

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Oct 26, 2017
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Yeah and Bernie supports civil rights legislation, anti-discrimination policies, and combatting systemic racism inside the system of governance we have. The entire basis of this argument is that Bernie is bad on intersectional politics...which is not true.

No, the entire basis is he catered his message to people who would completely toss aside non-economic issues if they needed to because they aren't effected by what they see as "identity politics". And it's something he has a habit of letting slip out when he shits on people who didn't vote for him as not real liberals, but in the same breath raise his hands as a champion when he gets votes from people who he says have been abandoned by the establishment, where the establishment is the rise of social issues within the Democratic Party and it's coalition of non-white voters.

People are and have been saying exactly this in this thread, so this isn't some bullshit thing I'm pulling out of my ass.
 
OP
OP
tommy7154

tommy7154

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Oct 25, 2017
5,370
Ha I knew it. Sanders saying they had a permit for 20,000 people and still many couldn't get in.
 

Deleted member 6230

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6,118
Hey, uhhh, how about fuck that?

Change racists mind? No, you create laws to protect people against racism, against institutional prejudice. You create laws to shut people the fuck up and force people to put a facade and make the action of discrimination illegal.

To address and repair the legacy of racism in this country you need laws that address income disparity, the wealth gap, segregation in our schools and communities, housing costs, etc. which are all things on Bernie's platform
 

Deleted member 11413

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No, the entire basis is he catered his message to people who would completely toss aside non-economic issues if they needed to because they aren't effected by what they see as "identity politics". And it's something he has a habit of letting slip out when he shits on people who didn't vote for him as not real liberals, but in the same breath raise his hands as a champion when he gets votes from people who he says have been abandoned by the establishment, where the establishment is the rise of social issues within the Democratic Party and it's coalition of non-white voters.
You aren't even criticizing his policies at this point, you are just criticizing some people who may have supported him. There is 0 evidence to suggest that Sanders would toss away social issues. None. His record in Congress doesn't support that, his proposed policies on the campaign don't support that.

Yeah you aren't only "the consequences are bad but the causes are good" neoliberal on this board, so some people agree with your worldview.
 

Ira

Member
Oct 27, 2017
231
The issue is his message and own words presents that he believes economic issues inherently trump social issues, even if he thinks that by solving economic inequality it will bring forth social equality.
I don't really understand why you seem to keep insisting that Sanders believes solving economic issues will magically solve other social issues. I believe that he believes that addressing things such as income inequality will go a long way to addressing broader social inequality (do you think that's untrue?) but he clearly supports policy beyond just economic ones and they're an explicit part of his platform.

For instance, his campaign website which was already linked in this thread talks about these kind of things, unless your issue is you don't believe he's actually committed to them?
 

Tfritz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,270
For instance, his campaign website which was already linked in this thread talks about these kind of things, unless your issue is you don't believe he's actually committed to them?

kinda seems like they're giving sanders the same energy sanders's supporters and campaign staff give other candidates ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 

Deleted member 8561

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You aren't even criticizing his policies at this point, you are just criticizing some people who may have supported him. There is 0 evidence to suggest that Sanders would toss away social issues. None. His record in Congress doesn't support that, his proposed policies on the campaign don't support that.

I'm criticizing the words that have come out of his mouth, the words he has written down. This conversation is about why Sanders became popular and it morphed into why I don't support him, and the primary reason why I don't support him is the existential issue of Economic Populism vs. Identity Politics, and the major implications of such the issue that was represented in 2016.

Yes, he is liberal, but he also represents a major shift on how the Democratic Party would function in terms of it's political ideology, and economic populism in America has never been a good thing for people who don't happen to be straight and white, nor has inclusive welfare reform ever been an actual thing because when the white people start noticing everyone who doesn't look like them starts getting some government aid, they revolt pretty fucking fast.
 

Deleted member 11413

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I'm criticizing the words that have come out of his mouth, the words he has written down. This conversation is about why Sanders became popular and it morphed into why I don't support him, and the primary reason why I don't support hims is the existential issue of Economic Populism vs. Identity Politics, and the major implications of such the issue that was represented in 2016.

Yes, he is liberal, but he also represents a major shift on how the Democratic Party would function in terms of it's political ideology, and economic populism in America has never been a good thing for people who don't happen to be straight and white, nor has inclusive welfare reform ever been an actual thing because when the white people start noticing everyone who doesn't look like them starts getting some government aid, they revolt pretty fucking fast.
Ah yes, because neoliberalism has been so great for marginalized people. Wtf is this welfare reform bullshit? Sanders is not for 'welfare reform' (which has always been a dogwhistle for massive cuts to social programs) he's for massively expanding the social welfare state. To benefit marginalized people.
 

Deleted member 8561

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Ah yes, because neoliberalism has been so great for marginalized people. Wtf is this welfare reform bullshit? Sanders is not for 'welfare reform' (which has always been a dogwhistle for massive cuts to social programs) he's for massively expanding the social welfare state. To benefit marginalized people.

I like how you instantly equate neoliberalism to Identity Politics.
 

Deleted member 6122

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Bernie is specifically addressing racial inequality right now, for anyone who thought that he doesn't do that for whatever reason. Lots of statistics here, black women being more likely to die during childbirth, incarceration rates, and wealth gap
 

brainchild

Independent Developer
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Nov 25, 2017
9,480
I'm criticizing the words that have come out of his mouth, the words he has written down. This conversation is about why Sanders became popular and it morphed into why I don't support him, and the primary reason why I don't support him is the existential issue of Economic Populism vs. Identity Politics, and the major implications of such the issue that was represented in 2016.

Yes, he is liberal, but he also represents a major shift on how the Democratic Party would function in terms of it's political ideology, and economic populism in America has never been a good thing for people who don't happen to be straight and white, nor has inclusive welfare reform ever been an actual thing because when the white people start noticing everyone who doesn't look like them starts getting some government aid, they revolt pretty fucking fast.

The words literally coming out if his mouth right now disprove your claim (he's talking about the intersectional aspect of combatting racism right now at the rally).
 

Dream Machine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,085
I like how you instantly equate neoliberalism to Identity Politics.
the problem is that neoliberalism uses identity politics as a cudgel, while not implementing the economic changes required to change anything about the systems that disadvantage people (sometimes even doing the opposite). Economic populism and identity politics are not mutually exclusive, the issue is that identity politics alone are not enough to get the job done. The idea that it's a this or that situation is silly when the two are inextricably linked
 

Deleted member 8561

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The words literally coming out if his mouth right now disprove your claim (he's talking about the intersectional aspect of combatting racism right now at the rally).

Jesus Christ I never said he doesn't support issues regarding minorities or some closet bigot, I've already laid out in specific detail what my issues are and existential concern with what he represents is, talked to people in this thread who as his supports outright confirm my issues with the message he brought forward. Not going to keep repeating the same shit.
 

Midnight Jon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,161
Ohio
this entire page is pointless because none of you are talking about Actual Neoliberalism

now if you'll excuse me i'm gonna use Made In Heaven to turn this into a thread about the merits of a candidate in favor of privatizing everything
 

Deleted member 11413

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the problem is that neoliberalism uses identity politics as a cudgel, while not implementing the economic changes required to change anything about the systems that disadvantage people (sometimes even doing the opposite). Economic populism and identity politics are not mutually exclusive, the issue is that identity politics alone are not enough to get the job done. The idea that it's a this or that situation is silly when the two are inextricably linked
Thank you.
 

TheModestGun

Banned
Dec 5, 2017
3,781
To address and repair the legacy of racism in this country you need laws that address income disparity, the wealth gap, segregation in our schools and communities, housing costs, etc. which are all things on Bernie's platform
This, racism isn't just attitudes. It's systemic economic issues as well, even if you could just fix attitudes, the picture isn't complete without addressing the systemic economic issues.