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Noodle

Banned
Aug 22, 2018
3,427


For Pride Awareness Month, Bethesda and its regional PR accounts changed their Twitter icons to a rainbow version of its logo, the softest most toothless, risk-free form of engagement possible.

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However there were some notable exceptions:

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"We stand with the LGBT community! Unless it would interfere with our business then you're on your own".
 

Alienhated

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,549
It's almost like... corporations do that for PR points... and not because they're good guys... whoa...
 

julian

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,786
Am I the only one who came into this thread expecting an assless chaps armor set?
 
Apr 21, 2018
6,969
Couldn't it be dangerous for their employees in some of those places if they did this?

Is it wrong to suggest that altruistic thing to do would be for Bethesda to not sell products there?

Am I asking too much of corporations here? Just seems weird to sell products in a homophobic/oppressed country and fall right in step with it to be part of the status quo.
 

Meelow

Member
Oct 31, 2017
9,195
Couldn't it be dangerous for their employees in some of those places if they did this?

Yep, Middle East alone has a long way to go before it becomes accepting, there are defiantly countries in the Middle East that are okay with LGBTQ+ but unfortunately not everywhere.

It's likely more so that they don't want to harm their employees.
 

MatrixMan.exe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,500
Couldn't it be dangerous for their employees in some of those places if they did this?

Absolutely. I'm also not sure who we're supposed to be angry with here. These are regional social media accounts.

If they haven't changed their profile pictures then that's a decision made by those regional teams. Bethesda can technically force those teams to change their profile pictures but there's every chance they're not due to the real world implications for those teams.
 

Dan L

Tried to PM someone for a tag
Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,177
Regina, Saskatchewan
Is it wrong to suggest that altruistic thing to do would be for Bethesda to not sell products there?

Am I asking too much of corporations here? Just seems weird to sell products in a homophobic/oppressed country and fall right in step with it to be part of the status quo.
Yeah let's fuck the people who live there because their governments are fucked.
 

HMS_Pinafore

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,155
Straya M8
Is it wrong to suggest that altruistic thing to do would be for Bethesda to not sell products there?

Am I asking too much of corporations here? Just seems weird to sell products in a homophobic/oppressed country and fall right in step with it to be part of the status quo.
Bethesda should really stop releasing games in the US as well then, why should they support a country who gasses their own citizens peaceful protesting.
 

skeezx

Member
Oct 27, 2017
20,171
Is it wrong to suggest that altruistic thing to do would be for Bethesda to not sell products there?

Am I asking too much of corporations here? Just seems weird to sell products in a homophobic/oppressed country and fall right in step with it to be part of the status quo.

brass tacks they probably shouldn't but consider that it took a twitter PR logo to really bring up the discussion (with caveats, like any pub kowtowing to china obvs brings up questions as of late)
 

Deleted member 64666

User requested account closure
Banned
Mar 20, 2020
1,051
Knowing some ME activists personally, I understand that by exposing yourself as an ally to LGBTQ+ people automatically means that you will be censored in certain Middle Eastern country. I've been told that it's even better to not show your "colors" until the right time comes.
 

The Masked Mufti

The Wise Ones
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
3,989
Scotland
Couldn't it be dangerous for their employees in some of those places if they did this?
Definitely, especially in the Middle East. It sucks but that's just how it is. Iirc I think Bahrain is the only Middle Eastern country where "legally" they can get away with it (I heard they don't have laws regarding homosexuality and it's more of cultural/religious. No idea if that's true, didn't fact check)
 

a916

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,838
I saw this floating around and for the longest time I read it backwards... I thought the ME posted a black logo in support of black lives matter... it seems I clearly misread it.
 

Rosebud

Two Pieces
Member
Apr 16, 2018
43,597
Is it wrong to suggest that altruistic thing to do would be for Bethesda to not sell products there?

Am I asking too much of corporations here? Just seems weird to sell products in a homophobic/oppressed country and fall right in step with it to be part of the status quo.

That would be awful for people who live there... Brazil has a shitty president but we LGBTQ+ like games too lol
 

ZiZ

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,716
Because it isn't good for business.
Do you think corporations are your allies?
 

The Masked Mufti

The Wise Ones
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
3,989
Scotland
No, but they surely help to spread awareness. That's what people want from companies.
Na. The majority only give a shit about the product the company is pushing. Just think about how many times (even here) we see the whole "separate the art from the artist" thing come up whenever something shitty is found out about an artist.

Edit: bear in mind that Era is not representative of the general consumer at all.
 

Shamash

Member
Nov 25, 2019
90
Brazil
Remember that big businesses/brands are not friends and they do not care about you in the least, they just do the bare minimum to incentivize you to consume their product.
 

Devilgunman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,456
No, but they surely help to spread awareness. That's what people want from companies.

They will help spreading awareness when it doesn't negatively affect their business. Just look at how many company came out to openly support Hong Kong protest. Businesses refused to do that because they all need to do business with China.
 

MatrixMan.exe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,500
Yes, they definitely help the cause. but that's not why they do it.

Is the implication here that the real people that are behind some of these brands and social media accounts, many of whom are LGBTQ+ or belong to other minorities, only show solidarity with social and political causes they genuinely believe in for profit?

Or that the company will only allow these views to be expressed if they believe they can profit from.it?
 

Sotha_Sil

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,067
It's entirely possible that branches of Bethesda in the Middle East are partially owned by the locals. Many foreign companies have to do this to be allowed to operate in their respective countries. In that case, you know what happens to LGBTQ people in that part of the world, right?

My company has an office in the UAE (I've worked with them many times) and it has such an arrangement. You can bet your ass we're not allowed to publicly support LGBTQ rights over there, even though the company as a whole is rather progressive.

This is all conjecture, but the point is that it's a lot more complicated than it seems.
 

ZiZ

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,716
Is the implication here that the real people that are behind some of these brands and social media accounts, many of whom are LGBTQ+ or belong to other minorities, only show solidarity with social and political causes they genuinely believe in for profit?

Or that the company will only allow these views to be expressed if they believe they can profit from.it?

I'm sure the individuals behind the accounts often belive in these causes. But the corporations don't and would not allow it if they felt it would harm their profits.
 

IMCaprica

Member
Aug 1, 2019
9,433
I want brands to be inclusive and actually do things that continue to normalize equality. But I know what they are. They're companies trying to turn a profit. So my course of action is try to make negative actions and inaction bad for business. They're not my ally. They're not sincere. They're a means to an end if enough of us can push them around. The sooner more people realize that the sooner we can demand more of them than temporarily slapping a rainbow on their logo in our countries.
 

Kthulhu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,670
Its almost like pride was just an excuse for companies to advertise and have cheap PR
 

MatrixMan.exe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,500
I'm sure the individuals behind the accounts often belive in these causes. But the corporations don't and would not allow it if they felt it would harm their profits.

Yeah, checks out, unfortunately. Although I don't think this specific example is as cut and dry as OP makes it out to be. It's fucked up, because if I had to guess the team running the ME account can't change their branding due to the legal and/or safety implications that come with LGBTQ+ support in those regions.

Not familiar with the situations in Russia and Turkey though.
 
I work in PR in Pakistan.

If a single brand or business does open support of trans or LGBT rights, they'll have a fatwa declared on them. The same is for the middle east, turkey and Russia.

As bad as it is, these companies have to abide by religious and cultural laws too. Hence why the esrb and pegi exist. If Bethesda or any other brand forced their ME branch to change to the rainbow, you'd have people in that country boycott the brand.

In Pakistan we still treat trans people like crap, and the same goes for a lot of middle east countries where gay people are thrown in prison or beaten. Bethesda ME waiving a rainbow flag will only cause unnecessary trouble and they'll roll it back in a matter of hours.

From public pressure when the religious parties put a fatwa for their heads.

I know it sucks but no brand can force their regional offices to abide by blanket terms, especially something like the rainbow flag in countries where it's a literal death sentence to belong to any letter in the LGBT alphabet.
 

Ales34

Member
Apr 15, 2018
6,455
I work in PR in Pakistan.

If a single brand or business does open support of trans or LGBT rights, they'll have a fatwa declared on them. The same is for the middle east, turkey and Russia.

As bad as it is, these companies have to abide by religious and cultural laws too. Hence why the esrb and pegi exist. If Bethesda or any other brand forced their ME branch to change to the rainbow, you'd have people in that country boycott the brand.

In Pakistan we still treat trans people like crap, and the same goes for a lot of middle east countries where gay people are thrown in prison or beaten. Bethesda ME waiving a rainbow flag will only cause unnecessary trouble and they'll roll it back in a matter of hours.

From public pressure when the religious parties put a fatwa for their heads.

I know it sucks but no brand can force their regional offices to abide by blanket terms, especially something like the rainbow flag in countries where it's a literal death sentence to belong to any letter in the LGBT alphabet.
Exactly.

The topic starter is very out of touch with the reality of actually living in those countries. As someone who lived for a while in the Middle East and Russia, I know that openly promoting LGBT rights in those countries would bring hate and threats to the company's employees at the very least. It's actually against the law to promote LGBT rights in Russia because that would supposedly hurt children. It's horrible, but it is what it is, and Bethesda as a business has to abide by those countries' cultural laws.
 
Exactly.

The topic starter is very out of touch with the reality of actually living in those countries. As someone who lived for a while in the Middle East and Russia, I know that openly promoting LGBT rights in those countries would bring hate and threats to the company's employees at the very least. It's actually against the law to promote LGBT rights in Russia because that would supposedly hurt children. It's horrible, but it is what it is, and Bethesda as a business has to abide by those countries' cultural laws.

I am currently working with some Americans who are setting up a new business in my city. I was working with them on a few communication key points and they asked me if they are allowed to use the pride flag in their office & on their socials. I had to tell them how it took almost 30+ years for trans people TO BARELY get recognized right now. A rainbow profile picture or any endorsement of the LGBT will only go well with 0.00000001% of the entire population of the country, with the remainder boycotting and protesting you.

As of right now, Trans People are the Facebook equivalent of the SEEN meme. The government has given them an identity and acknowledges their existence, but the police will never take a case of harassment, street crime, or any hostile crime committed toward a trans person as a serious case. The only difference between a trans person and an LGBT person in Pakistan is that the trans person is allowed to marry.

In Pakistan, if you belong to any letter in the LGBT and growing alphabet, and are open about it, you're a LITERAL target of the religious party, and if you go to a public university, you are literally painting a giant target on your back. These government funded universities are full of hooligans and thugs who carry guns in their cars like I carry my car papers. The law and officials are too scared to stop them because of their religious and political connections.

There is a university in my city where riots, protests and shootings happen on campus as a regular occurrence. And these are over trivial matters like beef between two sects or castes. Now imagine they find a LGBT person being open of their identity, they will literally hunt and murder that person and be rewarded for it with the media spending 2 minutes condoning the news and the remaining 58 minutes calling the rise of LGBT in Pakistan a blight.

In Pakistan and the Middle East countries, LGBT are STILL criminalized and considered pedophiles, abominations of Allah. I can't speak for Russia and I can speak for Turkey and Middle East when I say that them boosting the Rainbow flag will create an unnecessary PR nightmare, even if their intentions are good. You'll have a flood of social media comments, the media and other officials calling for a boycott or investigation into the brand and why do they support LGBT etc.

TL;DR If you KNOW that jumping in the tigers cage means a 99% chance that a tiger will rip you to shreds and eat you, would you still go in the cage with just a 1% chance of survival? That's the literal stance of Middle East countries and pride month.

I do wish things were better but unfortunately, cultural and religious laws overrule the rights of the LGBT in these parts of the world and this is something you have to accept. You can't and will never have blanket acceptance, especially in parts of the world where you KNOW it will do nothing but create a world of trouble for yourself and your brand.
 

JJD

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,506
User Banned (2 Weeks): Dismissive drive-by post in a sensitive thread.
it's impossible to live up to expectations nowadays.
 

Amnixia

▲ Legend ▲
The Fallen
Jan 25, 2018
10,424
Can we please stop looking to corporations for moral guidance? They only "support" LGTB rights in regions where its safe for marketing purposes.
 

Tyaren

Character Artist
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
24,787
Wouldn't Bethesda outright break the law in some of the mentioned countries by donning a rainbow flag?
 

Nano-Nandy

Member
Mar 26, 2019
2,302
I work in PR in Pakistan.

If a single brand or business does open support of trans or LGBT rights, they'll have a fatwa declared on them. The same is for the middle east, turkey and Russia.

As bad as it is, these companies have to abide by religious and cultural laws too. Hence why the esrb and pegi exist. If Bethesda or any other brand forced their ME branch to change to the rainbow, you'd have people in that country boycott the brand.

In Pakistan we still treat trans people like crap, and the same goes for a lot of middle east countries where gay people are thrown in prison or beaten. Bethesda ME waiving a rainbow flag will only cause unnecessary trouble and they'll roll it back in a matter of hours.

From public pressure when the religious parties put a fatwa for their heads.

I know it sucks but no brand can force their regional offices to abide by blanket terms, especially something like the rainbow flag in countries where it's a literal death sentence to belong to any letter in the LGBT alphabet.
Pretty much.