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Beto O’Rourke Enters the 2020 Presidential Campaign

Oct 25, 2017
3,819
America definitely does not need a centrist like Beto as president, no way should a guy taking donations from oil companies be elected. The best chance to clean up this trump mess is to elect an actual progressive/leftist.
He hasn't taken donations from oil companies.
 
Oct 27, 2017
395
Here’s the deal, Medicare for all is actually really popular with conservatives too. It polls extremely well across the whole country. So why aim for less?
It polls well only when presented without any details. When you mention higher taxes to pay for it, support plummets across the board. (There's more nuance than that, of course, but that's where the political fight would end up.)
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,425
It polls well only when presented without any details. When you mention higher taxes to pay for it, support plummets across the board. (There's more nuance than that, of course, but that's where the political fight would end up.)
I believe Bernie's tax is 8%, 2% which is already for medicare? Been a while since I looked at it.

Really, all you have to say is "your taxes go up 6% but you don't have monthly premiums, deductibles, co-pays.... all the bullshit. A vast majority of the country benefits from it big time.
 
Oct 29, 2017
4,463
Sydney
I believe Bernie's tax is 8%, 2% which is already for medicare? Been a while since I looked at it.

Really, all you have to say is "your taxes go up 6% but you don't have monthly premiums, deductibles, co-pays.... all the bullshit. A vast majority of the country benefits from it big time.
And once you get it in, it becomes like any other developed nation where it becomes incredibly popular and conservatives fear doing anything to fuck with it.
 

intheflorsh

Banned
Member
Oct 25, 2017
515
I'm not sure where people are getting "Beto doesn't support Medicare for All" from considering

https://www.facebook.com/betoorourk...ay-to-ensure-all-americans-/1332704096779297/
From NYT:
While Mr. O’Rourke supports universal health care — increasingly a litmus-test position for Democratic candidates — he hasn’t committed to a specific way to get there. During his Senate campaign, he suggested that universal health care could take the form of a single-payer system or “a dual system,” in which a government-run program would coexist with private insurance.
He has given conflicting messages on the most prominent proposal, “Medicare for all.”
In 2017, during his time in the House, he said unequivocally, “A single-payer ‘Medicare for all’ program is the best way to ensure all Americans get the health care they need.” But during his Senate campaign, he carefully avoided those words, calling instead for “universal, guaranteed, high-quality health care for all.”
It doesn't sound like he's commited to the concept. I can buy that he dodged talking about MFA to help himself win against Ted Cruz in 2018, but now that he's running for president he needs to explicitly confirm what his position is.

And he should also spell out exactly what he means by MFA, because that term is getting a little muddy.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,425
And once you get it in, it becomes like any other developed nation where it becomes incredibly popular and conservatives fear doing anything to fuck with it.
I think the pragmatists also under estimate how much people hate the middle man that is the insurance companies.

Medicare is the real pragmatic solution. Free market bullshit didn't work. It's the insurance companies fault, and what is going to happen to them is on THEM.
 
Oct 25, 2017
719
Here’s the deal, Medicare for all is actually really popular with conservatives too. It polls extremely well across the whole country. So why aim for less?
So does common sense gun control legislation, but that hasn't stopped both Republicans (both politicians and voters) from fighting that tooth and nail. Just because something polls well doesn't mean they'll actually support it when the time comes.
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,141
I believe Bernie's tax is 8%, 2% which is already for medicare? Been a while since I looked at it.

Really, all you have to say is "your taxes go up 6% but you don't have monthly premiums, deductibles, co-pays.... all the bullshit. A vast majority of the country benefits from it big time.
Seriously. Right-wing groups have villified taxes and made it hard for left-wing groups to increase them. Taxes should be presented in terms of how much people will end up saving as a result - at least with cuts digging into key supports and services.

This needs to be done again and again, as straightforwardly as possible because people are so near-sighted that they will sacrifice an indirect $200 in benefits for $20 in simple and direct tax cuts.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,425
Seriously. Right-wing groups have villified taxes and made it hard for left-wing groups to increase them. Taxes should be presented in terms of how much people will end up saving as a result - at least with cuts digging into key supports and services.

This needs to be done again and again, as straightforwardly as possible because people are so near-sighted that they will sacrifice an indirect $200 in benefits for $20 in simple and direct tax cuts.
You also have the fake Medicare for All advocates that are running for president right now, who will shift the minute they are in office. It's all a front to keep the insurance middleman profiting.
 
Oct 27, 2017
395
I believe Bernie's tax is 8%, 2% which is already for medicare? Been a while since I looked at it.

Really, all you have to say is "your taxes go up 6% but you don't have monthly premiums, deductibles, co-pays.... all the bullshit. A vast majority of the country benefits from it big time.
I agree, man. It would be a net benefit.

But Republicans and Fox News would aggressively fight it, as they do all common sense solutions that would benefit everyone. All they have to say it "your taxes will go through the roof!" and you've cut off like 40% of the Medicare-for-all support, according to the polling. (Of course, they would go much further, hugely mischaracterizing the details, and using "dangerous socialist takeover" rhetoric.)

Getting people to understand the benefits is a big time generational fight. It took seven years for voters to realize Obamacare wasn't going to kill their grandparents with death panels, and it only barely survived a GOP Congress.

To stay on topic: I don't know yet if Beto is the candidate to lead a massive sweeping wave to take back the Senate. That's what we truly need to get anything done.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,425
I agree, man. It would be a net benefit.

But Republicans and Fox News would aggressively fight it, as they do all common sense solutions that would benefit everyone. All they have to say it "your taxes will go through the roof!" and you've cut off like 40% of the Medicare-for-all support, according to the polling. (Of course, they would go much further, hugely mischaracterizing the details, and using "dangerous socialist takeover" rhetoric.)

Getting people to understand the benefits is a big time generational fight. It took seven years for voters to realize Obamacare wasn't going to kill their grandparents with death panels, and it only barely survived a GOP Congress.

I understand the plight of it all.... ultimately it would help if the Dem party leadership/"establishment" was actually behind it in defending the metrics. They arn't, because the really don't want it. They just know it polls well in general so they are using it to try and get the nomination. Not gunna work though.
 
Nov 1, 2017
1,692

When people show you who they are, believe them.
Do you think the US could completely eliminate oil and gas power right away? one year? two years? three? He is absolutely right that they will play a role in US power generation. Even the green new deal thinks it will take at least a decade to move off oil and gas so we really should think about how they can contribute in a sustainable way while on that path whether it is carbon taxes or another method.
 
Oct 31, 2017
581
You also have the fake Medicare for All advocates that are running for president right now, who will shift the minute they are in office. It's all a front to keep the insurance middleman profiting.
"Bernie Sanders wants to take away your health care plan that you worked hard to earn, replace it with the same government plan that everybody has to use, and increase your taxes to pay for everybody elses health care. Vote Republican and we'll protect your health care plan, instead of trying to toss it in the trash like Bernie Sanders wants too."
 
Nov 7, 2017
11,813

When people show you who they are, believe them.
Responsible oil manufacturing lol

Almost as bad as clean coal. I get saying that we need to stop our reliance on oil asap is gonna be a hard sell for a campaign and not practically feasible with the iron triangle but man you shouldnt be promoting it either
 
Nov 1, 2017
1,692
"Bernie Sanders wants to take away your health care plan that you worked hard to earn, replace it with the same government plan that everybody has to use, and increase your taxes to pay for everybody elses health care. Vote Republican and we'll protect your health care plan, instead of trying to toss it in the trash like Bernie Sanders wants too."
You forgot the part where they say "We want patients and doctors, not a bureaucrat in Washington, to decide what treatment you get."
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,826
Do you think the US could completely eliminate oil and gas power right away? one year? two years? three? He is absolutely right that they will play a role in US power generation. Even the green new deal thinks it will take at least a decade to move off oil and gas so we really should think about how they can contribute in a sustainable way while on that path whether it is carbon taxes or another method.
I think oil dependence ending in my lifetime is overly optimistic.
 
Oct 31, 2017
581
You forgot the part where they say "We want patients and doctors, not a bureaucrat in Washington, to decide what treatment you get."
Right - "Bernie wants to put overpaid union government workers who can't be fired in charge of your health care, saying whether you can get a surgery or not. Do you want to wait for months for a surgery like they do in Canada or do you want freedom and control over your own care?"
 

JohnOfMars

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
943
Mars
"Bernie Sanders wants to take away your health care plan that you worked hard to earn, replace it with the same government plan that everybody has to use, and increase your taxes to pay for everybody elses health care. Vote Republican and we'll protect your health care plan, instead of trying to toss it in the trash like Bernie Sanders wants too."
You’re right. Let’s give up. Better things aren’t possible.
 
Nov 1, 2017
1,692
You're right, I'd rather have some insurance guy get that honor.
See that is the common response and it is a terrible one. It sets you up for one of two responses:

1. Well if an insurance guy makes a mistake at least we can fire him!
or
2. I agree that isn't good either. But lets talk about how we can REFORM the system instead of REPLACING it with a government takeover.


dems have gotten a lot better at this debate since 2010 and the ACA but i still expect 2020 to be brutal
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,124
I guess people do still like voting a conservative democrat solely for being charismatic and electable...... even though 2018 and 2019 shows that way way better candidates being elected is very very possible but well....... people act like it's still the 2000s.

Or maybe people that support Beto are actually closet Conservatives who vote democrat.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,155
Chicagoland
I guess people do still like voting a conservative democrat solely for being charismatic and electable...... even though 2018 and 2019 shows that way way better candidates being elected is very very possible but well....... people act like it's still the 2000s.

Or maybe people that support Beto are actually closet Conservatives who vote democrat.
Okay FUCK OFF.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,425
See that is the common response and it is a terrible one. It sets you up for one of two responses:

1. Well if an insurance guy makes a mistake at least we can fire him!
or
2. I agree that isn't good either. But lets talk about how we can REFORM the system instead of REPLACING it with a government takeover.


dems have gotten a lot better at this debate since 2010 and the ACA but i still expect 2020 to be brutal
If they really wanted to defend it, they would. Problem is.... they don't want to. If one of the centrists gets the nom and is elected, most we will get is lowering medicare age to 55.
 
Oct 28, 2017
4,745
Ah, the purity tests begin.

I see we are on the "we must cease all energy sources that have climate changing effects right fucking now" as a criticism to prudent energy policy to incentivize renewables and innovation to cost reduce them to the point where market forces do all of the migration work.

This isn't a game of civilization where you can select wildcard policies and migrate all cities to solar/wind power in 1 year.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,436
I guess people do still like voting a conservative democrat solely for being charismatic and electable...... even though 2018 and 2019 shows that way way better candidates being elected is very very possible but well....... people act like it's still the 2000s.

Or maybe people that support Beto are actually closet Conservatives who vote democrat.
Well this escalated quickly...
 
Oct 29, 2017
4,463
Sydney
"Bernie Sanders wants to take away your health care plan that you worked hard to earn, replace it with the same government plan that everybody has to use, and increase your taxes to pay for everybody elses health care. Vote Republican and we'll protect your health care plan, instead of trying to toss it in the trash like Bernie Sanders wants too."
Is it your earnest estimation this will not be said regardless of who the Democrats run?
 
Oct 28, 2017
4,745
I guess people do still like voting a conservative democrat solely for being charismatic and electable...... even though 2018 and 2019 shows that way way better candidates being elected is very very possible but well....... people act like it's still the 2000s.

Or maybe people that support Beto are actually closet Conservatives who vote democrat.
Beto's total voting record averages almost exactly in line with the average Democrat. He's about as perfect of an example of a Democrat as you can get, and an optimistic one at that. Just because he isn't a democratic socialist doesn't mean he's a Republican, lol. He wouldn't even come close to passing as an old school HW Bush Republican, let alone a Trump one. But you live in your false reality and feel good about yourself.
 
Nov 1, 2017
1,692
I guess people do still like voting a conservative democrat solely for being charismatic and electable...... even though 2018 and 2019 shows that way way better candidates being elected is very very possible but well....... people act like it's still the 2000s.

Or maybe people that support Beto are actually closet Conservatives who vote democrat.
If we've moved the bar far enough left that a "conservative democrat" on the national stage is one who supports universal health care, restricting gun ownership, and saying the GND is technically and logically possible.

If that is what makes a centrist today we're already ahead of where we were in 2000s.
 
Oct 27, 2017
117
So does common sense gun control legislation, but that hasn't stopped both Republicans (both politicians and voters) from fighting that tooth and nail. Just because something polls well doesn't mean they'll actually support it when the time comes.
Look at this in the context of the post I was actually responding to... is this a good reason a presidential candidate shouldn’t back a position? A majority of Americans support it but the lobbyists don’t so a good “centrist” candidate should side with the lobbyists rather than the will of the people?

It polls well only when presented without any details. When you mention higher taxes to pay for it, support plummets across the board. (There's more nuance than that, of course, but that's where the political fight would end up.)
So the present the nuance? My god some of you have such low expectations for a candidate. “An issue will be minorly difficult to explain so I’d rather support a candidate who doesn’t fight at all for the right thing”
 
Oct 26, 2017
1,260
I just can’t shake the gut feeling that he’s an extremely charismatic empty shirt. That was great when he was going up against an extremely uncharismatic empty shirt in Cruz for a senate seat.

I am just not vibing on him for the presidency. It’s like the debating club captain at school who absolutely nails his opening remarks opposing the question “is America truly the land of opportunity” but deep down it just feels inauthentic because you feel like he isn’t speaking from lived experience. It all just feels a bit too slick and rehearsed to me.

Again, it’s not an analysis of his platform. Just my gut reaction, which is often a bigger factor in presidential elections that it should be. If I was running the GOP campaign, I would feel a lot more confident of devising a strategy to take him down than I would with Kamala.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,826
Look at this in the context of the post I was actually responding to... is this a good reason a presidential candidate shouldn’t back a position? A majority of Americans support it but the lobbyists don’t so a good “centrist” candidate should side with the lobbyists rather than the will of the people?
A majority of Americans will only support it until the multi-billion dollar insurance companies band together to run attack ads nonstop and change their minds about the whole thing.
 
Oct 29, 2017
4,463
Sydney
I'm sure it will, but the difference is, Bernie's response will be the same as Walter Mondale's, "of course I'm going to do this."
He'll reject the entire framing of the question, as he always has.

This is the problem with obsessing how Republicans frame the narrative. They'll always do the same thing regardless (they called the ACA, a Heritage Foundation plan, rank Communism and said it would institute panels to kill old people).

You have to create your own framing in a way that resonates with people.
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,722
You’re right. Let’s give up. Better things aren’t possible.
That's not what he was saying and you know it.

We can agree that Medicare for All is the best way to go while also acknowledging the political realities of pursuing such legislation.

Acting like a tax increase on every American will be an easy sell, even if the benefits are carefully and rationally explained, is laughably naive.

Does that mean we shouldn't do it? Of course not. The ACA was very unpopular and probably lost us the House in 2010, but that doesn't mean it wasn't the right thing to do.

However any candidate should be weighing the options carefully. Transitioning to a single-payer bill overnight is hardly the only way to get universal healthcare.
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,931
Ann Arbor, MI
Beto's total voting record averages almost exactly in line with the average Democrat. He's about as perfect of an example of a Democrat as you can get, and an optimistic one at that. Just because he isn't a democratic socialist doesn't mean he's a Republican, lol. He wouldn't even come close to passing as an old school HW Bush Republican, let alone a Trump one. But you live in your false reality and feel good about yourself.
You are replying to people who insist Pelosi is also a centrist.

It's a losing battle.
 
Oct 31, 2017
581
He'll reject the entire framing of the question, as he always has.

This is the problem with obsessing how Republicans frame the narrative. They'll always do the same thing regardless (they called the ACA, a Heritage Foundation plan, rank Communism and said it would institute panels to kill old people).

You have to create your own framing in a way that resonates with people.
Here's the thing - I don't think Bernie's framing won't work with median voters. People are incredibly averse to change and here's the thing, as much as people don't want to believe it, a lot of people actually do like their health care plan and like the fact they've earned it. Now, personally, I think that's stupid, but I think attempting to rewire basic American beliefs about earning certain things during a Presidential election is probably a bad plan.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,124
If we've moved the bar far enough left that a "conservative democrat" on the national stage is one who supports universal health care, restricting gun ownership, and saying the GND is technically and logically possible.

If that is what makes a centrist today we're already ahead of where we were in 2000s.
Which we really are thank goodness, democrcrats have moved lefter.
 

Kitsunelaine

My favorite cake is pie
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,306
You are replying to people who insist Pelosi is also a centrist.

It's a losing battle.
but don't you see, anyone with a (D) next to their name is a centrist if they aren't simply using it as a costume while you're actually participating as an (I)