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Beto O’Rourke Enters the 2020 Presidential Campaign

Oct 25, 2017
1,835
Quick reminder that "liberalism" in the United States is centrism in every other developed nation.

Bernie & co. are left of center.
Most Dems are slightly right of center, with Pelosi, Hillary, and most establishment Dems being further right.

The only reason our overton window is so fucked is because a) Republicans exist and b) our nation is one built on supporting the status quo.

Oh, and before somebody complains about Pelosi being called a centrist again...
 
Oct 29, 2017
4,464
Sydney
Here's the thing - I don't think Bernie's framing won't work with median voters. People are incredibly averse to change and here's the thing, as much as people don't want to believe it, a lot of people actually do like their health care plan and like the fact they've earned it. Now, personally, I think that's stupid, but I think attempting to rewire basic American beliefs about earning certain things during a Presidential election is probably a bad plan.
I think a lot of people in key states are miserable under the status quo, which is why candidates like Obama and Trump do so well, because ideology aside, they both run on disrupting things (hope and change, drain the swamp, etc).

I also think one of the other big truths of the American electorate is that Medicare is an adored and successful program, and pitching to people that you will be able to ditch your contact with an insurance company (if you even HAVE insurance, remember many people don't) and go on that program like your parents or your grandparents is too attractive an idea for a good portion of the population that you need to win an election to ignore.
 
Oct 28, 2017
4,747
Can Beto win Texas?
If Trump's approval rating keeps slowly dropping or we hit a recession, I think it is likely. Trump's Republicanism doesn't work as well in Texas where status and wealth aren't as revered as the old south as hard work and entrepreneurship. Also Texan Republicans on average are a hell of a lot less toxic about Mexicans.

But if the election were today, probably not. Texas isn't purple yet, it might be in 6 years.
 
Oct 26, 2017
1,260
Quick reminder that "liberalism" in the United States is centrism in every other developed nation.

Bernie & co. are left of center.
Most Dems are slightly right of center, with Pelosi, Hillary, and most establishment Dems being further right.

The only reason our overton window is so fucked is because a) Republicans exist and b) our nation is one built on supporting the status quo.

Oh, and before somebody complains about Pelosi being called a centrist again...
True that.

Even the conservative and far right parties in Australia wouldn’t dare to express anything less than their full-throated support for our current system of Medicare for all and our Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme. The furthest the right goes is offering incentives for people to take up private insurance if they can afford it, and even that is highly contentious and seen by many as handouts for the wealthy.

Us non-Americans often scratch our heads at American politics and your guns etc, but for me, it’s the political discourse around healthcare that baffles me more than anything else. Nothing comes close to it.

Edit: this is the healthcare platform of our main CONSERVATIVE party.

https://www.liberal.org.au/our-plan/health

Talking about their plans to pump extra money into the public health system and heavily subsidise more and more medications. Protecting the future of the system with legislative guarantees. Strict disincentives for anti-vaxxers. Increased funding for indigenous health.

That Overton window!
 
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Oct 31, 2017
581
I think a lot of people in key states are miserable under the status quo, which is why candidates like Obama and Trump do so well, because ideology aside, they both run on disrupting things (hope and change, drain the swamp, etc).

I also think one of the other big truths of the American electorate is that Medicare is an adored and successful program, and pitching to people that you will be able to ditch your contact with an insurance company (if you even HAVE insurance, remember many people don't) and go on that program like your parents or your grandparents is too attractive an idea for a good portion of the population that you need to win an election to ignore.
Sure, people are miserable, but both Obama & Trump both basically argued they could make things better without them feeling any pain. Now, I know you can make the argument people will be better off with no premiums plus higher taxes, but most people think of higher taxes for them as something to make them feel pain.

Secondly, people like Medicare, but Sanders isn't promising Medicare for All. Medicare as it stands now, covers far less, has things like premiums, deductibles, etcetera and in certain cases, has private plans that more well-off elderly people can use for Medicare instead of normal Medicare. As of 2017, 1/3 of all people eligible for Medicare are on Medicare Advantage plans, something they chose to get instead of normal Medicare.

So, not only is Bernie's plan completely "disrupting" a middle class family in Iowa's health care plan, it's also telling a 76 year old retiree in Florida that Bernie knows better what plan is best for them than they do and is taking away the freedom of choosing a Medicare Advantage plan.

Again, Sander's plan would likely be better for all those people, but people don't like being forced to do things, even if it's good for them.
 
OP
OP
ThisThingIsUseful
Oct 31, 2017
4,112
Trumps right about one thing: Beto sure loves moving his arms around a lot when he talks. lol. But I'll take that over crimes and treason any day.
I don't have cable or streaming channels (just Netflix at the moment until football season), but I hope the cable news stations (can't imagine it'll be a nightly news event) didn't focus on his comment and let Trump hijack discussion by turning it into his arms.

Especially since that would be another classic, "Trump accuses other person of doing things that Trump himself does," moment.





But it would be easier for people on cable to talk about this because they'd really have to wrap their brain around policy talk.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,125
Beto's total voting record averages almost exactly in line with the average Democrat. He's about as perfect of an example of a Democrat as you can get, and an optimistic one at that. Just because he isn't a democratic socialist doesn't mean he's a Republican, lol. He wouldn't even come close to passing as an old school HW Bush Republican, let alone a Trump one. But you live in your false reality and feel good about yourself.
Just because he isn't a republican doesn't mean that he isn't more conservative and more right-wing than the other dem candidates.

But you have the privilege to live in a false reality that think that being only slightly left than Biden is an acceptable candidate facing the crisis of 2019 and you feel good about yourself. We can do better than "average democrat" you know.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,774
Texas
Trumps right about one thing: Beto sure loves moving his arms around a lot when he talks. lol. But I'll take that over crimes and treason any day.
I’ve watched other candidates, politicians, and public speakers, and they all seem to talk with their hands. I’m actually surprised he hasn’t gone after Beto’s all teeth grin and criminal record.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,942
Fiddler's Green
I'll be looking forward to see how he -- like all of the candidates -- does in the early primaries. I'm not really a stan of any of these people, and the sort of insane tribalism I see going on in all the democratic primary threads is pretty off putting. You can not support and disagree with a candidate without maligning his supporters. This doesn't actually have to be a process full of acrimony and hatred.
 
Oct 31, 2017
581
Quick reminder that "liberalism" in the United States is centrism in every other developed nation.

Bernie & co. are left of center.
Most Dems are slightly right of center, with Pelosi, Hillary, and most establishment Dems being further right.

The only reason our overton window is so fucked is because a) Republicans exist and b) our nation is one built on supporting the status quo.

Oh, and before somebody complains about Pelosi being called a centrist again...
Politicians in other countries have called out the lie Bernie would be "left of center" in Europe multiple times, including Denmark's own prime minister. Also, considering the rightward tilt on immigration and multi-culturalism that multiple social democratic parties are taking in Europe, I'm perfectly OK with American "centrism" over European "liberalism" if it means moving right on immigration to do so.

Also, the fact there's been a giant jump in right-wing parties recently shows that Europe is just like America, except they avoided having black and brown people asking for social services for centuries, but now that they are, supposed enlightened countires have no problems voting for right wing parties, including former social democratic voters.
 
Oct 29, 2017
4,464
Sydney
Sure, people are miserable, but both Obama & Trump both basically argued they could make things better without them feeling any pain. Now, I know you can make the argument people will be better off with no premiums plus higher taxes, but most people think of higher taxes for them as something to make them feel pain.

Secondly, people like Medicare, but Sanders isn't promising Medicare for All. Medicare as it stands now, covers far less, has things like premiums, deductibles, etcetera and in certain cases, has private plans that more well-off elderly people can use for Medicare instead of normal Medicare. As of 2017, 1/3 of all people eligible for Medicare are on Medicare Advantage plans, something they chose to get instead of normal Medicare.

So, not only is Bernie's plan completely "disrupting" a middle class family in Iowa's health care plan, it's also telling a 76 year old retiree in Florida that Bernie knows better what plan is best for them than they do and is taking away the freedom of choosing a Medicare Advantage plan.

Again, Sander's plan would likely be better for all those people, but people don't like being forced to do things, even if it's good for them.
I think with the right framing it'll work electorally. But we'll have to wait and see how the Primary plays out I suppose.
 

ISOM

Banned
Member
Nov 6, 2017
1,955
Quick reminder that "liberalism" in the United States is centrism in every other developed nation.

Bernie & co. are left of center.
Most Dems are slightly right of center, with Pelosi, Hillary, and most establishment Dems being further right.

The only reason our overton window is so fucked is because a) Republicans exist and b) our nation is one built on supporting the status quo.

Oh, and before somebody complains about Pelosi being called a centrist again...
What does this have to do with American politics? What other countries define as their center-left-right are of no importance in the grand scheme of things.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,835
This is what i took issue with, and again you can fuck right off with that line of thinking.
I'm gonna be straight with you, I don't want to offend or anything, but do you have any particular reasons for supporting Beto in this race? May I ask what qualities he has that are attractive to you?

I'm not asking to condescend or anything, I just can't see why one would support him outside of his charisma (I will admit he has plenty of that) and would like to know what would make him anybody's horse in the race?
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,820
I'm not too fussed with the details yet about universal healthcare. It's like gay marriage. We know he is for it. I won't fault him for not giving specifics yet. We know he will be better compared to a Republican.
I guess people do still like voting a conservative democrat solely for being charismatic and electable...... even though 2018 and 2019 shows that way way better candidates being elected is very very possible but well....... people act like it's still the 2000s.

Or maybe people that support Beto are actually closet Conservatives who vote democrat.
Most of the Dems that got voted in 2018 were moderates.
 
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Oct 29, 2017
923
Can Beto win Texas?
Yes. He nearly did it in a non-Presidential year, and Trump's ratings are under water in Texas. Also, Trump has just never been that popular in Texas compared to other red states. Conservatives here tend to be more snobbish than hateful (although, believe me, the hateful ones exist). In general, though, being conservative here is more about living in Plano, Southlake, Lakeway, Woodlands, etc (read: upper middle class) and raising the nuclear family than it is about hanging on every word of Breitbart. That's why you saw a shift of some urban/suburban counties further blue (or first time blue, Tarrant! [Fort Worth]) this last time around.

Also, keep in mind that there are metric tons of people in cities who don't vote. I feel like a good chunk of people who don't normally vote would show up to vote for Beto out of Texas Pride(tm).
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,125
What does this have to do with American politics? What other countries define as their center-left-right are of no importance in the grand scheme of things.
It properly contextualizes that America is quite more right-leaning than other countries.
I mean, American military operations on other countries...........
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,835
What does this have to do with American politics? What other countries define as their center-left-right are of no importance in the grand scheme of things.
The non-stop "PeLoSi IsN't A cEnTrIsT" clapback when she votes moderately at best and opposes extremely popular socdem policies made me write that up, and while it isn't too relevant in the locality of the US and was more of a kneejerk, I just find it funny that she's so quick to be defended as a leftist when even in America that's hardly true.
 

ISOM

Banned
Member
Nov 6, 2017
1,955
It properly contextualizes that America is quite more right-leaning than other countries.
I mean, American military operations on other countries...........
It still of little importance in how Americans contextualize their own politics. And I'm more talking about economic and social issues.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,125
Wait, people still say that Pelosi is a centrist? In 2019?
I thought she was a progressive. But when she put Ilhan Omar under the bus and joined the others in their disingenuous smear campaign against a black muslim woman, well it made me think that she wasn't as progressive as I thought she was.
 
Oct 31, 2017
581
ITT - People who don't understand that the problem in America isn't that we don't have a Left, but that we don't have an actual center right like most of the rest of the First World does.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,820
I thought she was a progressive. But when she put Ilhan Omar under the bus and joined the others in their disingenuous smear campaign against a black muslim woman, well it made me think that she wasn't as progressive as I thought she was.
That's a black mark against her but looking at the overall picture still says she is progressive to me.
 
Oct 25, 2017
81
I would prefer Bernie or Warren, but I wouldn't be too distraught if Beto got in, especially if his hot dad energy helps the down ballot. I'm more curious about what his foregin policy stances are and what a Beto cabinet would look like. I'm also confident that most of the Democratic presidential canidates would rubber stamp medicare-for-all, (positive) welfare reform , etc.
 
Nov 7, 2017
7,084
That's a black mark against her but looking at the overall picture still says she is progressive to me.
You can still be a progressive and centrist in US politics.

Justin Trudeau is a centrist, and you guys would probably label him as a leftist socialist with your warped standards.

Why is this bad exactly?
Look at your health care system and ridiculous shit like citizens united. You guys seriously need something more than corporate shills running the place.
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,932
Ann Arbor, MI
Wait, people still say that Pelosi is a centrist? In 2019?
Because Betos voting record is near identical to hers and they want to call Beto a centrist. So by proxy Pelosi is a centrist.

That or there are those who are the mindset that anything that isn’t full on socialism is centrist.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,656
With Beto now in the race my support has moved from Harris to him. I really like what I saw from Beto during the last election but I'll be paying attention to the primaries to see if he truly is my kind of candidate or not.
 
Oct 31, 2017
581
Why is this bad exactly?
Because at the end of the day, the Left isn't going to win every election. You need a sane center-right who might not do everything you like, but who also aren't going to wreck everything for ideological reasons.

When center right parties in Europe take power, they may not like all the policies the left-leaning party passes, but for the most part, they don't try to undercut those policies at every single turn. Look at the reaction of the Tories after they won back power when it came to the NHS as opposed to the GOP when it came to the ACA.

The current American political breakdown is a small amount of leftists who think there's a secret population of socialists, a large social democratic faction of varying degrees, a smaller but still prominent center-left neoliberal faction, a bunch of right-wing populists who are OK with a welfare state for white people, right-wing Christian social conservatives, and Ayn Rand fanatics.

I'll put it this way - I'm a dork. I actually look at the policies of random international parties. When I look at the large center-right parties in places like France, Germany, etc., I don't like many of them, but I'm not scared of them in power, like I am with the GOP.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,125
I'm not too fussed with the details yet. It's like gay marriage. We know he is for it. I won't fault him for not giving specifics yet. We know he will be better compared

Most of the Dems that got voted in 2018 were moderates.
Yes, let's ignore the gains that was the winning of more left-leaning politicians and how they've
become popular.


The line of thinking of others it seems is "the majority of the candidates who won were moderates, let's continue doing that" instead of "wow, these very progressive candidates actually WON and have become very popular. Let's build upon that"
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,364
Ugh. He would be fine for running another senate campaign in Texas, but he'd be a terrible president. He's a straight white rich guy who can afford to sing kumbaya and back Tea Party Republicans while framing it as putting country over party because he has absolutely nothing to lose from the right's draconian policies.

I wonder if any of the other candidates will hold him accountable for propping up Will Hurd, a candidate who wouldn't even support Beto in the GE or for blaming Democrats for Trump/Republicans locking up babies in cages.
But I was told by a certain era community that if you're critical of Beto in any way, you're exactly like the right wing. Cause horseshoe theory.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,820
Yes, let's ignore the gains that was the winning of more left-leaning politicians and how they've
become popular.


The line of thinking of others it seems is "the majority of the candidates who won were moderates, let's continue doing that" instead of "wow, these very progressive candidates actually WON and have become very popular. Let's build upon that"
No, my line of thinking is actually to hone your candidates to fit your district. I just happen to think that Beto has the bet chances of beating Trump in the current climate. You beat Trump at his own game of sucking the media oxygen out of the room. You don't put up a policy wonk against him as that gives him the best chances of winning a second term.
 
Nov 7, 2017
11,816
Sorry he's not as electable as the other dem candidates when viewed under the standards of 2019.
Hes easily more electable than 80% of them at least

I dont love beto but I feel like people ran out of legitimate criticisms for him and Harris and instead of just repeating them or not saying anything they're continuing to latch on to sillier and silliers things. Doubly so on Twitter
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,973

Color me shocked that a Bernie stan is attacking Beto at the same time as declaring Beto's supporters to be morons.

Keep 'em coming.
Did you read the article? Can you really refute... well... any of it? Beto was a great Senate candidate for Texas. As a Presidential candidate however, he has no real solutions or plans as of yet, and seems to actively be staying away from the more popular policies that the Democrats are suggesting. His verbiage is reminiscent of Obama, but not in a good way because it evokes... nothing. He can't really answer the question of why he's running and why he thinks he's "the guy" that we need to get the country on track. This is going to be the most important elections in American history, and he really thinks that what we need is another "both sides" and "compromise" kind of guy? FOH with that noise.
 
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Oct 25, 2017
3,820
Hes easily more electable than 80% of them at least

I dont love beto but I feel like people ran out of legitimate criticisms for him and Harris and instead of just repeating them or not saying anything they're continuing to latch on to sillier and silliers things. Doubly so on Twitter
They are rushing to define him and Harris, which is smart political play at this early a stage. Kamala and Beto are the new kids on the block and excites people.