Biden Takes Advantage of Tory Sweep, "Look at what happens when the Labour party moves so so far to the left."

Deepwater · Dec 13, 2019

The Adder said:
I know. I was one of them. 2008 was the first federal election I could vote in.

You know when they didn't come out? 2010.

but they did in 2018.

I mean here's the thing, expecting a traditionally jaded group of voters to come out and vote for the same kind of politicians and policies that made them jaded in the first place is foolhardy. But what we can be assured of is that if you have a candidate that can inspire young people that things might change, you'll get above the curve when its time to vote.

Deleted member 4346 · Dec 13, 2019

JVIDICAN said:
Enjoy your comfy bubble while others suffer jackass.

I don't live in a comfy bubble. Please don't make assumptions.

Trump is a symptom of a system. Electing Joe Biden is pretending that Trump is an outlier. Trump is not, see: Boris Johnson, Netanyahu, Bolsonaro, Le Pen, etc. Fascism is spreading through the world, as capitalism begins to collapse under the inequalities which it has created.

Blader said:
You know what helps continue that status quo? Helping Trump win another four years. Elections are binary choices; if you don't support one side you implicitly support the other. And all the things you want to change will just continue on with a second Trump term, and will only grow even worse.

Most of the things I want to change would continue under a Joe Biden presidency. Except they would be business as usual, so there would be no outcry. Just like there was no outcry under Obama, when he oversaw the rise of wealth inequality and forced buy-in to private health insurance. Biden doesn't even represent incremental change, as Hillary Clinton's 2016 platform did, but rather a return to the politics of a decade or more ago. He's more likable but a worse candidate policy-wise than she was. Hard pass from me.

The Adder · Dec 13, 2019

bye said:
yeah I think young people would show up to vote for Bernie

Couldn't be arsed to show up for him in the last set of primaries. Cheers =/= votes. Rally attendance =/= votes. Votes = Votes.

Powdered Egg · Dec 13, 2019

maxxpower said:
Are people here really voting for Biden in the primary? Like I get that we have no choice if the wins the nomination, but what exactly has he said or proposed to earn your vote in the primary?

Ninjas are scared. Our side is full of fear as well. Corporate media framing doesn't help either. The scale is tilted for the rich and their champions.

Powdered Egg · Dec 13, 2019

The Adder said:
Couldn't be arsed to show up for him in the last set of primaries. Cheers =/= votes. Rally attendance =/= votes. Votes = Votes.

I won't fully blame the youth. Republicans engage in voter suppression when it comes to college ballots. It also wouldn't surprise me it Democrats decide not to make a full throttled outreach for the college vote because that would invite progressive voting.

bye · Dec 13, 2019

The Adder said:
Couldn't be arsed to show up for him in the last set of primaries. Cheers =/= votes. Rally attendance =/= votes. Votes = Votes.

tell that to voters in west virginia

EPaul · Dec 13, 2019

If Trump wins again next year i will official give up on most of the modern western countries. I guess people rather horrible conservative policies that portect the rich and punish the poor....it is really sad man

The Adder · Dec 13, 2019

Deepwater said:
but they did in 2018.

I mean here's the thing, expecting a traditionally jaded group of voters to come out and vote for the same kind of politicians and policies that made them jaded in the first place is foolhardy. But what we can be assured of is that if you have a candidate that can inspire young people that things might change, you'll get above the curve when its time to vote.

People vote when they're scared or when they're angry and don't vote when they're comfortable. That has little to do with the candidate. 2018 is a testament to that fact, not a refutation. Our biggest gains were picking up actual left of center representatives in deep red districts. Unless your argument is that left-of-center Democrats are the candidates that inspire young people.

bane833 · Dec 13, 2019

Apharmd said:
I don't live in a comfy bubble. Please don't make assumptions.

Trump is a symptom of a system. Electing Joe Biden is pretending that Trump is an outlier. Trump is not, see: Boris Johnson, Netanyahu, Bolsonaro, Le Pen, etc. Fascism is spreading through the world, as capitalism begins to collapse under the inequalities which it has created.

Most of the things I want to change would continue under a Joe Biden presidency. Except they would be business as usual, so there would be no outcry. Just like there was no outcry under Obama, when he oversaw the rise of wealth inequality and forced buy-in to private health insurance. Biden doesn't even represent incremental change, as Hillary Clinton's 2016 platform did, but rather a return to the politics of a decade or more ago. He's more likable but a worse candidate policy-wise than she was. Hard pass from me.

Capitalism isn't collapsing. It's just taking the gloves off.

The Adder · Dec 13, 2019

bye said:
tell that to voters in west virginia

You mean the state where Sanders in 2016 got just over half the votes of Clinton in 2008?

xxracerxx · Dec 13, 2019

Fuck off Joe.

Blader · Dec 13, 2019

Apharmd said:
I don't live in a comfy bubble. Please don't make assumptions.

Trump is a symptom of a system. Electing Joe Biden is pretending that Trump is an outlier. Trump is not, see: Boris Johnson, Netanyahu, Bolsonaro, Le Pen, etc. Fascism is spreading through the world, as capitalism begins to collapse under the inequalities which it has created.

Most of the things I want to change would continue under a Joe Biden presidency. Except they would be business as usual, so there would be no outcry. Just like there was no outcry under Obama, when he oversaw the rise of wealth inequality and forced buy-in to private health insurance. Biden doesn't even represent incremental change, as Hillary Clinton's 2016 platform did, but rather a return to the politics of a decade or more ago. He's more likable but a worse candidate policy-wise than she was. Hard pass from me.

Biden's constant insistence on Trump being an outlier and the GOP's fever breaking once he's gone is both baffling to me, given his personal experience with the complete opposite for eight years, and one of the biggest reasons he's not my preferred choice in the primary by far. At the same time, I would absolutely 100% with no reservations take a Biden presidency with his proposed healthcare and climate and gun control policies, and his latitude over steering the courts away from the Federalist Society's clutches, over another four years of Trump if those were the two choices in a general election. And it's insane to me that any reasonable progressive who wants anything better for this country does not see the night and day difference between the two.

I don't think this mindset really reckons with how bad Trump is, how much damage he has done so far, and how much more consequential that legacy will be if he gets another four years at it. Trump may be a symptom of a bigger disease, but that doesn't change the fact that he is a particularly catastrophic and uniquely powerful symptom. Nothing, literally absolutely nothing, that a progressive wants to see happen will happen under a second Trump term. Even worse than that, the potential for progressive change post-Trump will be eroded further under another four years of Trump. A Biden presidency may not champion all or most ideal progressive policies, but a continuing Trump presidency will totally salt the earth to prevent those progressive policies from even being able to happen under, say, a President AOC. A continuing conservative Supreme Court and a judiciary being reshaped by Trump and Leonard Leo will see to that.

cDNA · Dec 13, 2019

bye said:
tell that to voters in west virginia

They voted for a unknown convicted felon over Obama in 2012 primaries.

Aprikurt · Dec 13, 2019

Because the middle is a great place to be.

Fuck you Biden. Go back to inappropriately kissing interns or whatever.

Foffy · Dec 13, 2019

Apharmd said:
I don't live in a comfy bubble. Please don't make assumptions.

Trump is a symptom of a system. Electing Joe Biden is pretending that Trump is an outlier. Trump is not, see: Boris Johnson, Netanyahu, Bolsonaro, Le Pen, etc. Fascism is spreading through the world, as capitalism begins to collapse under the inequalities which it has created.

Most of the things I want to change would continue under a Joe Biden presidency. Except they would be business as usual, so there would be no outcry. Just like there was no outcry under Obama, when he oversaw the rise of wealth inequality and forced buy-in to private health insurance. Biden doesn't even represent incremental change, as Hillary Clinton's 2016 platform did, but rather a return to the politics of a decade or more ago. He's more likable but a worse candidate policy-wise than she was. Hard pass from me.

This post here explains the issue in depth. While I don't agree with refusing to vote for Biden, this is precisely the problem of Biden winning. It allows the political left to assume a fluke from a party that consistency produces a series of fluke, extreme, problematic people in the White House only really produced one anomaly instead of the whole thing being broken.

Biden is literally every characterization about how bad Hillary Clinton was, but all of it is real. He represents the failure of the political system to actually have a pulse to understanding problems and addressing them. Joe Biden, to put it plainly, represents everything wrong about the "normal" way American politics functions. Trump, by contrast, represents the normal of the Republican party without the "marketable" language. Both are negative positions.

cDNA · Dec 13, 2019

Spirit of Jazz said:
He should have come out strongly in favour of remain. It did wonders for the Lib Dems.

In areas where the Brexit party ran they were the party Labour lost their voters to. It doesn't take a degree in politics to figure out why Labour lost the election.

I was talking the actual Brexit election, Jerermy was already the Labor Leader.

Sordid Plebeian · Dec 13, 2019

Expected, but then again anyone who thinks this country would accept Warren or Bernie with open arms is kidding themselves

Tiger Priest · Dec 13, 2019

Apharmd said:
I reject this whole cloth. Biden doesn't represent my beliefs. And that speaks to a larger problem- Democrats cannot continue to run shitty center-left candidates with problematic histories of racial policy and think that us voters will just meekly fall behind them because the Republicans have gone off a cliff.

The Democratic Party will need to represent real change and opposition to the right and moneyed interests, or it should die off. It cannot continue to represent the status quo, which is destroying the environment, creating an America where the disparity between rich and poor is becoming more like a Third World country than a developed one, mass incarcerating black and brown people, mass deporting immigrants, and waging a forever-war against the Muslim world.

Under no circumstances would I vote for Joe Biden. He unapologetically represents all of these things.

Ok, so effectively you're voting for Trump if Biden wins the nomination then? Are you really going to both sides this? Look at the unmistakable difference between this country's policies under Obama and Trump and tell me that there's "No Difference" between center-left leadership and TRUMP.

Grow up.

Mr. Poolman · Dec 13, 2019

This is your champion?

cDNA · Dec 13, 2019

cDNA said:
They voted for a unknown convicted felon over Obama in 2012 primaries. I was wrong 41 % percent voted against Obama in that primary.

The Adder · Dec 13, 2019

cDNA said:
They voted for a unknown convicted felon over Obama in 2012 primaries.

They're trying to refute my point that rally attendance =/= an indicator for election voter turnout by saying Sanders beat Clinton in West Virginia in 2016, so it must correlate.

To which I reply, Sanders numbers in 2016 were just over half of Clinton's numbers in 2008. Someone's going to win the primary one way or another, this just proves my point that Sanders' rallies being popular didn't do anything for his actual voter turn out.

EDIT: And I'm not saying voter turn out was down because of Sanders. Voter turnout was down because people were complacent in 2016. What I am saying is that the argument "people show up to his rallies so they will show up at the polls" is inherently flawed.

Spirit of Jazz · Dec 13, 2019

Blader said:
I'm not misreading anything. You can't have it both ways and say Labour's policies were more popular but also that elections aren't about policies, while also acknowledging this election was about Brexit, because Brexit itself is a gigantic fucking policy matter.

My whole point was that the right wing propaganda machine has shaped the sad state UK politics from Brexit to the smears.

When talking about the election not being about policies I was clearly referring to a parties policies as a whole and how they'd effect the lives as voters. Not one hot button issue that's pushed by right wing propaganda.

When I said Labours economic/social policies were more popular I mean that they were more popular than the Tories policies in those areas. Not that Brexit wasn't seen as a much more important issue for the majority of rubes in the country.

If you want to keep argue semantics then you're going to have to do it on your own. I'm not trying to "have it both ways" when I've clearly always been talking about how propaganda has fucked up the country.

It's also not just a propaganda effect, where voters are manipulated into making choices they don't realize will hurt them as well. We see in the U.S. all the time that often rural, white conservatives will consciously vote for Republicans because they know even if they'll be hurt at least immigrants and non-white people will be hurt even more.

This is one of the features of nationalistic propaganda, it's not a separate issue. Also I think it's disputable if they honestly think they're going to get hurt more than if they voted for another party.

Azuran · Dec 13, 2019

I see we are already erasing Hillary's failure from history. Or maybe Biden forgot to take his medications again.

I honestly don't know what this senile centrist even offers that she didn't. They're both from the same cloth.

Spirit of Jazz · Dec 13, 2019

cDNA said:
I was talking the actual Brexit election, Jerermy was already the Labor Leader.

Oh, sorry, I misread.

Sign My Guestbook! · Dec 13, 2019

God, what is this mans problem? Literally dividing his own party over the voting results of another country.

Deleted member 48897 · Dec 13, 2019

I believe we should heed Biden's words and, uh, register more British youth to vote in the upcoming US primaries.
No matter how you look at his words he's making a spurious comparison.

Brexit referendum BARELY passed and needed a huge campaign in the cities going on about needing to protect the NHS.
Labour got voted out on the basis of their lack of commitment to Brexit, in favor of a party that plans to end the NHS.
Labour's losses are partly attributed to latent antisemitism in the party, losing to a party whose racism was open and unabashed.
The most interesting point to be made about all this is the way that the media threw the election with extensive disinformation campaigns.

I swear the only really coherent conclusion I can draw (and plenty of wry tweets would seem to agree) is that now that Britain can't get their kicks fucking over India and parts of Africa, they're stuck with having to resort to ruining Scotland instead. (We Americans certainly know a thing or two about that considering how the Black belt has been treated historically)

Joshbob1985 said:
Why do people keep saying this?

Lib Dems:

Seat change: -1
Votes: 3,696,423
Vote share %: 11.5
Vote share change: +4.2

Labour:

Seat change: -59
Votes: 10,295,907
Vote share %: 32.2
Vote share change: -7.8

It's probably this bit:

Seat change: -1
Votes: 3,696,423
Vote share %: 11.5

Sounds to me like the lib dems have not been a particularly successful party in recent history if this is an improvement.

JVIDICAN said:
Enjoy your comfy bubble while others suffer jackass.

Gonna take a wild guess that the people advocating a leftist push here aren't the comfortable ones

Heromanz · Dec 13, 2019

Tiger Priest said:
Ok, so effectively you're voting for Trump if Biden wins the nomination then? Are you really going to both sides this? Look at the unmistakable difference between this country's policies under Obama and Trump and tell me that there's "No Difference" between center-left leadership and TRUMP.

Grow up.

Grow up?
that poster is the most grown person he see the reality of the situation. He see Trump versus the status quo before Trump. And no he's not advocating voting for Trump

Blader · Dec 13, 2019

Spirit of Jazz said:
When talking about the election not being about policies I was clearly referring to a parties policies as a whole and how they'd effect the lives as voters. Not one hot button issue that's pushed by right wing propaganda.

Brexit is a policy that will affect the lives of voters...

This is one of the features of nationalistic propaganda, it's not a separate issue. Also I think it's disputable if they honestly think they're going to get hurt more than if they voted for another party.

There are many farmers in America who will vote to re-elect Trump because they don't like immigrants and minorities even though Trump's actual trade policies are hurting them more than anything else. That is a deliberate choice being made to accept economic pain as long as it means getting rid of immigrants.

Heromanz said:
Grow up?
that poster is the most grown person he see the reality of the situation. He see Trump versus the status quo before Trump. And no he's not advocating voting for Trump

Not voting Democrat is functionally the same as voting Republican. You can hate the system is set up that way all you like, but that doesn't change the fact that that's how it works. Any vote not cast for one helps the other.

etrain911 · Dec 13, 2019

I officially refuse to vote for Joe Biden.

kickz · Dec 13, 2019

LMAO, this is the nominee folks....

S1lentSymph0ny · Dec 13, 2019

etrain911 said:
I officially refuse to vote for Joe Biden.

I won't but I respect your right not to vote for shitty status-quo candidates.

Fudgepuppy · Dec 13, 2019

Xx 720 said:
It's not worth the risk of Trump stacking the Supreme Court which will have ramifications for decades, as a gay man my civil liberties are at stake, trans people are already getting fucked. We have to win this next election failure is not an option.

Hate to break it to you, but the option that appeases the middle, won't do much for these marginalized groups of people.

cDNA · Dec 13, 2019

Fudgepuppy said:
Hate to break it to you, but the option that appeases the middle, won't do much for these marginalized groups of people.

If they get good Judges yes it will help a lot of people.

Deleted member 48897 · Dec 13, 2019

Blader said:
Not voting Democrat is functionally the same as voting Republican.

This is exceptionally wrong but then I'm lukewarm on electoralism as a source of change in general

HylianSeven · Dec 13, 2019

I really hate the fact that it's looking like Biden will win the nomination, and once AGAIN we'll be at the point of "Stop complaining and just vote for the candidate that's not Trump!" I'll vote for him if he wins the primary but I'm absolutely not happy about it, and I can totally understand why other people are unhappy about it. When Hillary won the primary, shit got toxic real fast, and it even was BEFORE she won the primary, with blame on Bernie for not stepping aside sooner for Hillary. Obviously I don't think people should vote for Trump and Biden's an objectively better candidate than Trump, but can you really blame people for really not wanting to vote for Biden? Did we learn nothing from 2016? Don't run status quo candidates that clearly the electorate does not like. Just because they can win a primary does not guarantee victory in the general election. I honestly don't know if Bernie would have beaten Trump in 2016 if he won the primary. There's obviously no denying the Russian influence and issue of the Electoral College that kept Hillary from winning, but the fact that she STILL wasn't far ahead in Electoral Votes of someone like Trump says a lot. She won the popular vote, which does not matter because we have the stupid Electoral College.

IMO I think Biden will even lose harder than Hillary did if he makes it to the general.

greenbird · Dec 13, 2019

Blader said:
Not voting Democrat is functionally the same as voting Republican.

That's not really true, people only phrase it that way to make it sound as bad as possible.

A potential voter going from D to R is a two point swing. A potential D voter sitting home is a -1, only half as damaging as the first scenario. Also, someone can abstain from presidential voting or even choose 3rd party, while voting a bunch of Dems down ballot.

Yeah, it's still not good or ideal for Democrats, but mathematically it's not exactly the same as voting for Trump. And no, I'm not advocating any of this. Just a bit annoyed at hearing that statement parroted hundreds of times. We can be honest about stuff without the need to exaggerate.

BabyMurloc · Dec 13, 2019

Evil vs. useless, the election battle of the ages.

mreddie · Dec 13, 2019

He's getting the nominee is he?

JVID · Dec 13, 2019

greenbird said:
That's not really true, people only phrase it that way to make it sound as bad as possible.

A potential voter going from D to R is a two point swing. A potential D voter sitting home is a -1, only half as damaging as the first scenario. Also, someone can abstain from presidential voting or even choose 3rd party, while voting a bunch of Dems down ballot.

Yeah, it's still not good or ideal for Democrats, but mathematically it's not exactly the same as voting for Trump. And no, I'm not advocating any of this. Just a bit annoyed at hearing that statement parroted hundreds of times. We can be honest about stuff without the need to exaggerate.

Best way to look at it imo is that you're canceling out the vote of a trump voter.

roflwaffles · Dec 13, 2019

MasterOfPastures said:
Well, pack it up I guess. Now that the UK will become the US, we might as well prop up hill-dawg up again.

Isn't Biden practically hill-dawg 2.0?

Pasha · Dec 13, 2019

Joe Biden is fucking TRASH!

Deleted member 8741 · Dec 13, 2019

roflwaffles said:
Isn't Biden practically hill-dawg 2.0?

I hate to say it, but he's also male and that might be enough for some people. I hate that it is though.

Tiger Priest · Dec 13, 2019

Heromanz said:
Grow up?
that poster is the most grown person he see the reality of the situation. He see Trump versus the status quo before Trump. And no he's not advocating voting for Trump

etrain911 said:
I officially refuse to vote for Joe Biden.

Refusing to vote for Biden is effectively a vote for Trump. I don't want him to be the nominee either, but this is the reality of this situation. If you're seriously telling me that Biden is not an improvement over Trump then you are out of your mind. On immigration, health care, taxes for the wealthy, climate, foreign policy, energy policy - in every single one of these areas the country would be better off than under this raging xenophobic lunatic currently in office.

So yes, grow up.

greenbird · Dec 13, 2019

roflwaffles said:
Isn't Biden practically hill-dawg 2.0?

He's a downgrade across the board. Electability remains to be seen.

Deleted member 8741 · Dec 13, 2019

I agree with everyone who says grow up. You may not like Biden, but you'll like a ultra conservative RBG replacement even worse.

Voting for the president isn't just about the presidency.

Boiled Goose · Dec 13, 2019

Ecotic said:
No, I didn't. Even with the headwind of the same party trying to hold the White House for a third term, she won the popular vote comfortably despite running a generally bad campaign. She held half the rallies that Trump did, was unlikable, and didn't campaign in the Midwest until it was too late because she thought it was safe. Plus the Comey Letter. And despite all that, she wins the popular vote by nearly 3 million. So I say the basic thesis that a good center-left candidate can win is sound.

To me the issue with the whole center fallacy is that it really isn't about being more moderate vs progressive. The split largely tends to happen in terms or pro corporate vs pro constituent. And that middle has very little appeal.

Ecotic said:
No, I didn't. Even with the headwind of the same party trying to hold the White House for a third term, she won the popular vote comfortably despite running a generally bad campaign. She held half the rallies that Trump did, was unlikable, and didn't campaign in the Midwest until it was too late because she thought it was safe. Plus the Comey Letter. And despite all that, she wins the popular vote by nearly 3 million. So I say the basic thesis that a good center-left candidate can win is sound.

My issue with the premise is that the middle doesn't tend to be moderate, it tends to be pro corporate. And that middle doesn't appeal to either side. Issue by issue there are more people that lean left that lean right. It really aint close. The problem with going to pro corporate middle is that you alienate both side.

If there was a pro worker, actually moderate middle running without big donor money, I'd agree... But sadly that doesn't really apply to current dnc candidates

BobLoblaw · Dec 13, 2019

He's not wrong. He shouldn't have said it, but those of us Dems that have been around for more than a few elections know he's right. Do you think Barack Obama would've been nominated in 2008 if he ran on gay rights and DACA?

The country isn't far left, so there's no point in running on that platform all the way to the GE. You surround yourself with good progressives and then slowly push things forward. It can't be a drastic thing or else you'll lose a lot of people. And Joe Biden is a terrible candidate for those that think I support him.

etrain911 · Dec 13, 2019

Tiger Priest said:
Refusing to vote for Biden is effectively a vote for Trump. I don't want him to be the nominee either, but this is the reality of this situation. If you're seriously telling me that Biden is not an improvement over Trump then you are out of your mind. On immigration, health care, taxes for the wealthy, climate, foreign policy, energy policy - in every single one of these areas the country would be better off than under this raging xenophobic lunatic currently in office.

So yes, grow up.

You, nor the democratic establishment are entitled to a minority voting for you. The sooner you learn this, the better for you. Grow up and stop using your privilege to advocate the status quo.

Cat Party · Dec 13, 2019

The "lessons" from the UK election and from 2016 seem to be at odds with each other, and also at odds with the "lessons" from 2018. Maybe we should stop looking for lessons.

Kcannon · Dec 13, 2019

etrain911 said:
You, nor the democratic establishment are entitled to a minority voting for you. The sooner you learn this, the better for you. Grow up and stop using your privilege to advocate the status quo.

Great sentiment, but utterly useless in the end.

There are lives at stake.

Biden Takes Advantage of Tory Sweep, "Look at what happens when the Labour party moves so so far to the left."

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