• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.

Zem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,969
United Kingdom
It's completely fine that they remove all his scores, even the live and verified ones. Otherwise there's very little risk in cheating on an emulator, hoping you don't get caught and if you do, oh well, you still have some scores. Nope, they need to wipe everything and it's why they will not accept scores from him again in the future. It's the only option they had really and it's the best way of doing it. It needs to be clear that if you cheat then that's it for you on their scoreboards otherwise the risk/reward is skewed in favour of the cheater.
 

Narasumas

Banned
Nov 27, 2017
952
Melbourne, Florida
It's about time!! Weibe was the man! Hope he gets a little self-validation from this.

F*** Mitchell. I know people say he did a lot for the sport, but he's just a tool imo.

Competitive gaming & Twin Galaxies are now better off having him expelled from competition.
 
OP
OP
Erik Twice

Erik Twice

Member
Nov 2, 2017
685
ok so while this does mean he used an emulator or some such faked cabinet this doesn't prove he never got the scores though right? Or is there evidence which shows the scores are all faked too?
There's strong circumstancial evidence that he used the playback feature of MAME to craft the record.

Here's the thing, people in the know have been suspicious of his Donkey Kong scores for a very long time. There were things that didn't seem right, and, privately, some people expressed their doubts. From the top of my head, there were at least three things that were a bit strange:

a) His playstyle was very risky for a world record attempt.
b) The scoring of the barrels, which is random, was heavily weighted into his favour (Something like 90+% percentile)
c) The record had no sound.

This was not enough to challenge Mitchell's score. After all, being lucky does not make a run invalid, one can get the same result just from playing over and over. But it's strange and now that it has been proven he used MAME, it seems extremely likely his luck and risky playstyle are the result of using save states.

Similarly, the lack of sound doesn't seem particularly important but it's actually key. You see, MAME sound emulation is not that good when it comes to Donkey Kong. It sounds very different at certain points, to the point that people used more accurate "samples" of the sounds than the MAME default. And even then, there's a hardware quirk that MAME doesn't emulate: When the game boots, it plays all sounds at once.

So yeah, it is more than reasonable to assume that he faked the score, not just tried to pass a MAME one as if it were an arcade game.

The whole "only original hardware" thing seems kind of dumb tbh.
Emulation often differs significantly from the original, specially in some titles. Hence the arcade and MAME tracks are kept sepatate.

All scores should be done in a live event, not a videotape sent in the mail.
This would prevent everyone but a small pocket of Americans from competing and, hence, make the competition pointless. In fact, the reliance on live events and the extremely localized pool of competitors is what allowed most fake scores to exist. Mitchell wouldn't have been caught without a tape.

The current rules for recording a game seem more than enough to determine the validity of a score. I see no reason to distrust them and many reasons for allowing recordings to be accepeted.
 
Oct 27, 2017
199
I think Billy Mitchell needs to embrace this and just start showing up to events with a Russian flag tie or whatever post/current cold war villain we currently have. I need full on WWF circa Desert Storm in this arcade scene.
 

Buggy Loop

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,232
If i understand correctly, the hardware had to be modified for this cheat? How did it happen? The arcade place was in on this?
 

SoH

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,733
Removing all his scores is the right move. Trying to create some criteria on what stays and what doesn't would be maddening. And would send a signal to anyone else considering cheating that it just better be really convincing. You get caught you get the axe, no exceptions, is the right message.

That said I do think Mitchell has demonstrated he knows the game. Makes it all the more tragic, but the blame rests entirely on his shoulders. Don't fucking cheat and then lie about the cheating if you don't want your valid scores to go down the toilet too.
 

Gonzalez

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,679
This is shame seeing a pioneer being humiliated like this. I guess this is how Pete Rose fans feel about his banning from baseball.
 

Narpas Sword0

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,087
Note: Keep in mind that, while he has been proven to be a cheater, the depiction of the events in The King of Kong is inacurrate and ought not to be treated as gospel.

Isn't this depiction itself inaccurate? Mitchell has been proven to have used something other than original hardware but the finding of Twin Galaxies describes itself as narrow and doesn't use the word "cheat." They don't even confirm it was MAME.

Not defending him, but if you want people to be strictly factual then you should be strictly factual.
 

daegan

#REFANTAZIO SWEEP
Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,897
I screencapped and tried to post all this, bc there's a lot, but it's an unwieldy process on mobile:


Included in the FB post is even some detail on why the Pac-Man should be side-eyed at best
 

Richard Booth

Verified
Jan 4, 2018
353
I screencapped and tried to post all this, bc there's a lot, but it's an unwieldy process on mobile:


Included in the FB post is even some detail on why the Pac-Man should be side-eyed at best

Scott is legit and on the up and up. He's been a friend of mine for a long time and has been nothing but gracious and truthful to me.
 

BossLackey

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,789
Kansas City, MO
Fucking finally.

I feel like the reason they did this is because these Billy Mitchell videos that basically prove he's been cheating have garnered so much attention.

To say that Twin Galaxies has a large journey to earn back their credibility would be an understatement (if they ever had any).

The sad part is, this is only one of the cheaters. Glad it happened though.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,050
Between this and the Dragster debacle (and um, using triforce as a spokesman), it'd be nice if this place went totally under but they're too slippery for that.
 

Andres

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,661
tumblr_inline_nyc0rulZ1y1rtcxwh_500.gif
 

Cow Mengde

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,705
I was really hoping Billy Mitchell was just playing a character in the documentary when they revealed it was heavily edited that way. He was entertaining. It's too bad he turned out to be a real turd.
 
Dec 2, 2017
3,435
I was really hoping Billy Mitchell was just playing a character in the documentary when they revealed it was heavily edited that way.
I don't even believe that it was the editing, or that he was "playing it up" once he heard how it was being edited (because how would he even know that during filming?). He's got so many Baghdad Bobs running propaganda for him, that line just sounds like one more bit of damage control.
 

Narpas Sword0

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,087
He had several 950k+ live scores for Donkey Kong and his perfect Pac-Man game was live if I remember right

I wonder how they can erase that one

You mean the "first" perfect pac man game that came about two days after a rule change that only he knew about?

He was first because all prior attempts for the preceding 15 years limited the player to fewer lives than Mitchell had on his attempt.
 

Mugsy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,256
If anyone wants an in depth look at why they removed the scores this video covers it pretty well.

 

Lord Error

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,359
Similarly, the lack of sound doesn't seem particularly important but it's actually key. You see, MAME sound emulation is not that good when it comes to Donkey Kong. It sounds very different at certain points, to the point that people used more accurate "samples" of the sounds than the MAME default. And even then, there's a hardware quirk that MAME doesn't emulate: When the game boots, it plays all sounds at once.

So yeah, it is more than reasonable to assume that he faked the score, not just tried to pass a MAME one as if it were an arcade game.
I still don't quite see how any of that casts a suspicion that he cheated using saved states, recorded playback or something like that. Wouldn't the video show the state reloading? Or do you think he crafted the perfect record playback mame file in the text editor and then used that for a one final, recorded full auto-playthrough? Is that really possible, meaning - is that mame record input file easy to fake like that?


Emulation often differs significantly from the original, specially in some titles. Hence the arcade and MAME tracks are kept sepatate.
Oh I know. But in case of DK, other than the sound component, the emulation is pretty much spot on in terms of actual gameplay. In fact, he'd probably be at a slight disadvantage due to any added input latency by the emulator, if he used mame without cheating.

You mean the "first" perfect pac man game that came about two days after a rule change that only he knew about?

He was first because all prior attempts for the preceding 15 years limited the player to fewer lives than Mitchell had on his attempt.
But how does that matter? Aren't you supposed to not lose any lives in a perfect pacman playthrough?
 

SoH

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,733
I still don't quite see how any of that casts a suspicion that he cheated using saved states, recorded playback or something like that. Wouldn't the video show the state reloading? Or do you think he crafted the perfect record playback mame file in the text editor and then used that for a one final, recorded full auto-playthrough? Is that really possible, meaning - is that mame record input file easy to fake like that?
Creating a TAS is not very difficult. Why use Mame, and then lie about using Mame if your intentions were pure?
 

Tetra-Grammaton-Cleric

user requested ban
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
8,958
I'm sure Walter is hurt by this as he had implicit trust in Billy. Walter is in India right now but I'll attempt to get a statement from him and I'll throw it up here.

Dwayne Richards and many other people (including some former Twin Galaxy refs) have levied some pretty serious accusations at Walter and Billy.

Have you watched his low-end docs?

You've been very forthcoming in the past and I was curious as to your take on the many claims 'The Perfect Fraud man' and "King of Con' make.
 
Last edited:

eyeball_kid

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,225
This is great, but sadly Steve Wiebe can never get his moment back. Perhaps it'll inspire him to try to break the WR again.
 

Dullahan

Always bets on black
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,410
Couldn't have happened to a better guy!

Good riddance. Cheaters getting caught is always a good thing to see.
 

Agent Unknown

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,661
Despite how extremely obnoxious Mitchell is this is still pretty sad and disappointing, but at least the truth is known, this was a master class of research in exposing a fraud.

Anyways, all hail king Wiebe. King of Kong seriously needs a reissue with a new epilogue after all this.
 
Last edited: