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Billy Mitchell taking legal action against Twin Galaxies and Guinness

plagiarize

To its ports I have been
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
8,206
Cape Cod, MA
If you watched the King of Kong you'd see that they were super anal about the arcade hardware used to set records. There's no way he played on a MAME machine to set a world record without being aware of it.
There was some bullshit in one of the MAME videos showing them supposedly swapping out a board on a real cabinet. He knew.
 

Nacho

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,482
NYC
If you watched the King of Kong you'd see that they were super anal about the arcade hardware used to set records. There's no way he played on a MAME machine to set a world record without being aware of it.
I mean, he was able to play them and submit them with only a video, no? Outside of the doc, doesnt seem like they've been anal about anything until recently due to reputation.
 

trugs26

Member
Jan 6, 2018
1,353
Sounds like it'd be easier if they do records like in sport. You have your personal best (which could be hacked in this case), but then a public record that you do in front of people on a specified device (e.g., Olympic record) which should go on websites like twin galaxies or Guinness.
 

Druffmaul

Member
Oct 24, 2018
233
I mean, he was able to play them and submit them with only a video, no? Outside of the doc, doesnt seem like they've been anal about anything until recently due to reputation.
TG made an exception especially for Billy because they trusted him and assumed he would never ever cheat. Normally for arcade game world records they insist it be done on a machine in front of an audience and a judge.
 

TSM

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,692
I mean, he was able to play them and submit them with only a video, no? Outside of the doc, doesnt seem like they've been anal about anything until recently due to reputation.
That was because he was in with the guys at Twin Galaxies and they took him at face value without verifying his equipment. A big part of the scandal when it was shown he cheated was that Twin Galaxies didn't do their due diligence and it devalued the rest of the scores that were allegedly legit. So they purged his and Todd Rogers scores after it was proven that they lied and/or cheated in an attempt to regain credibility.
 

Nacho

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,482
NYC
TG made an exception especially for Billy because they trusted him and assumed he would never ever cheat. Normally for arcade game world records they insist it be done on a machine in front of an audience and a judge.
Yes. I'm aware of how it happened. I'm replying to a poster saying that they check everything with a fine tooth comb before submitting in response to me saying that it's entirely possible he didnt know the machines were running mame. We're very close to talking in circles here.
 

Druffmaul

Member
Oct 24, 2018
233
Yes. I'm aware of how it happened. I'm replying to a poster saying that they check everything with a fine tooth comb before submitting in response to me saying that it's entirely possible he didnt know the machines were running mame. We're very close to talking in circles here.
It's the exception that proves the rule, but you refuse to let it go. He was the one person in the world they assumed would never ever try to submit a world record using a MAME machine, either through ignorance or deceit.

EDIT after he replied below: lol I forgot how tiresome this shit could be.
 
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Nacho

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,482
NYC
It's the exception that proves the rule, but you refuse to let it go. He was the one person in the world they assumed would never ever try to submit a world record using a MAME machine, either through ignorance or deceit.
Huh? Listen all I said was that he may have not known and have responded to people saying he HAS to know and why that must be, or other people thinking I don't know the situation I'm talking about. I'm not NOT letting anything go, just clarifying responses when people reply to me... like... a conversation?
 
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SmiteOfHand

SmiteOfHand

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,004
Unfortunately it's very possible that he played on a machine not knowing it was mame. It's not out of the realm of very real possibility.

And let's be honest, twin galaxies is a shit show anyway, they've used Billy Mitchell as a sort of example to try to clean up their image.
Billy himself in his massive evidence packet rejects this possibility. Neither Twin Galaxies, Billy Mitchell, or the venue are making an argument that MAME was accidentally used.

 

Nacho

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,482
NYC
Billy himself in his massive evidence packet rejects this possibility. Neither Twin Galaxies, Billy Mitchell, or the venue are making an argument that MAME was accidentally used.

And this would mean, if it is indeed a MAME machine or not, he is under the express impression that it isn't?
Anyway, as the other poster was speaking of letting this go, I'm letting this go.
 
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SmiteOfHand

SmiteOfHand

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,004
And this would mean, if it is indeed a MAME machine or not, he is under the express impression that it isn't?
Anyway, as the other poster was speaking of letting this go, I'm letting this go.
His evidence document is a lot of repeating the same info but the basic argument is he argues he completed the scores on authentic arcade hardware and the tape was tampered with after the fact.
 

Error 52

Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,748
I remember him getting salty over Regular Show’s parody and suing Cartoon Network over it.

"The television character does not match the plaintiff in appearance: GBF appears as a non-human creature, a giant floating head with no body from outer space, while Plaintiff is a human being,"

"And when GBF loses his title, the character literally explodes, unlike Plaintiff."
 
Evidence Document Update
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SmiteOfHand

SmiteOfHand

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,004
I have made my way through the evidence document. Here is what I think is the most important throughline worth knowing about..

In TG's livestream reviewing Billy Mitchell's 1,047 score the integrity of the tape source is addressed here. This is Mitchell's primary complaint because the source of the tape, Dwayne Richard, has a publicly well known extreme dislike for Mitchell.

(47:20)

In short, TG used footage from King of Kong as well as an independent copy provided by Greg Erway.

"At the time that Steve Wiebe was submitting his performances and they were being called under question, Billy's performances were used as the model of professional play to compare Steve Wiebe's tapes to as they looked for things. So what happened is Walter Day had copies of Billy's performances sent to all referees that he had asked to take a look at. One of those people was Dwayne Richard. Another one was Greg Erway who actually got digital files of both the 1047 and the 1050 performances. So we got a copy from Greg Erway"

Billy takes issue with this because Walter Day states he never dealt with digital copies of any player's performance so he couldn't be the source. This leads Billy to the wild conclusion that the only possible source of this independent copy is Dwayne Richard. The hateful man out to ruin him. It is a fucking leap and a half and a weak-ass argument. He goes on and on about various things and endless witness documents about how wonderful he is but this is what he presents as his primary evidence of tape tampering.

Quick Update: initially I didn't address line item 4 because I couldn't find whatever testimony from Erway is being mentioned. I think he must be referring to the statement on Page 29 from Richard Vavrence which mentions his discussion with Erway saying he can't confirm the tape source. Which isn't a testimony by Erway it is a second hand discussion, but regardless. It'll be trivial for TG to line up the gameplay from King of Kong if it does match since you have the score as a constant reference.

 
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TSM

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,692
I have made my way through the evidence document. Here is what I think is the most important throughline worth knowing about..

In TG's livestream reviewing Billy Mitchell's 1,047 score the integrity of the tape source is addressed here. This is Mitchell's primary complaint because the source of the tape, Dwayne Richard, has a publicly well known extreme dislike for Mitchell.

(47:20)

In short, TG used footage from King of Kong as well as an independent copy provided by Greg Erway.

"At the time that Steve Wiebe was submitting his performances and they were being called under question, Billy's performances were used as the model of professional play to compare Steve Wiebe's tapes to as they looked for things. So what happened is Walter Day had copies of Billy's performances sent to all referees that he had asked to take a look at. One of those people was Dwayne Richard. Another one was Greg Erway who actually got digital files of both the 1047 and the 1050 performances. So we got a copy from Greg Erway"

Billy takes issue with this because Walter Day states he never dealt with digital copies of any player's performance so he couldn't be the source. This leads Billy to the wild conclusion that the only possible source of this independent copy is Dwayne Richard. The hateful man out to ruin him. It is a fucking leap and a half and a weak-ass argument. He goes on and on about various things and endless witness documents about how wonderful he is but this is what he presents as his primary evidence of tape tampering.

Wouldn't all of this be pointless unless Billy has the original recorded footage without the MAME level transitions? Even if the source of the digital copies was in question he'd still have to prove that they were doctored.
 
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SmiteOfHand

SmiteOfHand

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,004
Wouldn't all of this be pointless unless Billy has the original recorded footage without the MAME level transitions? Even if the source of the digital copies was in question he'd still have to prove that they were doctored.
His arguments around the 1,047 tape are really strange. He goes on about how it was never a real submission and was done for "entertainment purposes only" as part of making King of Kong a "docu-drama." As part of that he ended up sending the master tape because the copy had the rollover problem when 1 mil was hit as we saw in the film.

So he wants us to understand it was not a serious submission and the referees watching it were not verifying it. Implying that what is seen cannot be used to verify. So he is admitting what is on the tape that is shown in King of Kong was fabricated bullshit but never actually saying it as to not implicate himself? I really, really do not understand his argument.




He also has a whole section dedicated to even though he believes the tapes were tampered, just in case, the girder level transition IS ACTUALLY possible on arcade hardware..

..on DK jr.

It is an odd document.