Black Panther Blues; Our fucking History and Culture was taken from us...

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
28,905
Not a Star Wars thread, for once. I've been thinking about this for a bit as Black Panther edges closer to release. And, while I'm not expecting some groundbreaking movie that transcends the Marvel formula (I hope to be proven wrong), what BP depicts is something powerful, yet also depressing. The entire idea is that there exists a fictional African nation called Wakanda that has perfectly preserved its particular African history and culture while also simultaneously managing to be on the technological and economic level of the West, in fact it exceeds the technological achievements of the West. We've seen images of brightly garbed black people in traditional African attire. Kendrick Lamar has done a soundtrack including a stellar music-video rich with African iconography. And, every black kid has the name T'Challa on the tip of their tongue.

But, the thing that slightly depresses me about Black Panther is that it is all fiction.

And, by that I don't mean the existence of Wakanda and its techno-magic, I mean the actual culture. It reminds me of what we, as Niggas in America (and the West) have lost, which is essentially everything. You see, we have no idea what African culture was and/or is like. We don't have a fucking clue where we are originally from. We don't fucking know our particular African history. We don't have any fantastical myths passed down to us from generation to generation. We don't have our ancient fairy tales preserved into the present day such that they can be turned into animated Disney movies. We don't have our old African spiritual songs that we can chant in rhythm. We have almost zero connection to the entire continent of Africa. And, even for those black-African individuals that might actually originate from an African nation, it is unlikely that even they have any knowledge of their actual past history and culture. Rather, they have the history and culture of a post-colonialist nation, drafted by European nations drawing indiscriminate lines to conjure up entire nations where dozens of tribes likely lived separate from one another. Their history and culture is that of a response to a new order, as opposed to a continuation of the old.

In other words, our entire knowledge of African culture tends to come from a sort of pop culture osmosis. Kanga textiles and lion skins, dashikis, drums, and Swahili sounds. Lion King and Coming to America. But, we have no real connection to our past. On the other hand, "white people" culture is alive, well, and still kicking. This is something I really need to stress, almost every "white" culture (not just Anglo-Saxon) has been "perfectly" preserved (by this I mean readily accessible and distilled into their relevant society). Such that, if you're White (in America) you can easily learn about your past, even if your family has recently "forgotten" where they came from. If your English all your culture and history dating back to Hadrian's Wall is preserved; whether it be the fictional tales of King Arthur to the conquests of King Henry V or William the Conqueror. Scandinavian culture is celebrated to this day. Thor is more than a Marvel character, we're talking about an ancient Scandinavian religion that has been preserved and is still discussed and heralded to this day. Scottish culture, Polish culture, Slav/Russian culture, German culture, etc. All preserved. Yet, this connection to the past goes beyond "white" cultures, other minorities have still managed to retain a portion of their history and culture. Indians, Chinese, Japanese, Spanish, hell even those Native American tribes not wiped out have been able to at least maintain a good portion of their past history/culture, including their own celebrated heroes which have somehow even become a part of American lexicon. Black Hawk, Sitting Bull, Crazy Horse, etc.

But, back to the American Negro, what the fuck do we have? Nothing. We were carted to this New World in chains, our clutched history and culture beaten out of us. Our language rendered extinct. Our religion declared blasphemous and purged. Our homelands burnt, ravaged, stripped of resources, and then its boundaries redrawn. Its old name lost to the sands of time. The ONLY fucking culture we have is the new culture that we crafted when we were dropped onto to this God forsaken Rock. And, isn't it a surprise that our former oppressors seek to take even that from us too? Co-opt our language, shake and twerk to our music, adopt our fashion, and then when all is said and done, declare they came up with it in the first place and build themselves a statue. Ask why we can't model ourselves after the other "successful" minorities, but then conveniently forget that they enacted Jim Crow and burned Black Wall Street to the ground along with every other historically black community that achieved a modicum of success. And then, when the ashes were still smoking, declared it was time to "desegregate." Can you possibly understand what it is like not having any connection to a past that doesn't start in the chains of the 1600's?

So, what the fuck am I getting at? Well, you see, as much as Thor engages in whimsical space adventures to the tunes of Led Zeppelin, it doesn't erase the fact that Thor was a "real" person. A religious figure that can still be read about today and ties into the culture of an entire people. Whether Thor continues to exist in the Marvel-verse has no bearing on the perpetuation of his entire myth that is tied to an entire people. Black Panther, on the other hand, is no actual myth of the African-American people. Rather, he and his entire fictional universe, exists as the dream of a broken people. A look of what could have been, instead of what was. A glimpse at a foggy past, in a future world. It's not a world we can recognize from our past, but a rediscovering of what our past and future could have looked like.

And THAT IS WHY BLACK PANTHER IS SUCH A BIG DEAL YOU PIECE OF SHITS.

Discuss.

EDIT:

Fixed some typos and grammar.

DOUBLE EDIT:

Adding in The Adder 's response since it is also extremely relevant.

I'm going to use this as a jumping off point.

It's not the same thing, not in the least.

Our history begins in chains.

Think about that. Really think about it. Our book opens up on defeat and oppression of someone else's creation. Not with legends. Not with stories of how we built what we have to get where we are. The story begins below decks of some ship pressed in with our people like cargo. Because that's what we were treated as.

Our story is one of constantly being beat down and robbed of. Of enduring and building only to see it burned down. We created a country which we will never inherit. Without our backs there would be no America. Without our input, there would be know American art forms. Those were created by and then stolen from us.

There is no group of Americans more American than we are because our stories started in America. The only people who can claim otherwise had roots here before America was a thing that existed. And we aren't allowed that respect. That acknowledgement.

Everything of which we can be proud, and there is plenty that we can be proud of, is taken and the thieves pretend that they made it. That it's theirs and has always been theirs. Even when they were ridiculing it. Demonizing it. Right up until they stole it.

We advance, are beaten back, and those of us who can't be beaten back any more, can't work up the will to climb even when they know there's just someone waiting there to cut the rope as we're just beginning to see sunlight again, they're called lazy. Shiftless. Thugs. And are used to paint the rest of us the same.

The only thing we're allowed is the things that can't be claimed by others. That which comes of the sweat of our brow and the breaking of our backs. And even then it's not because of our unshakable, iron will as a people that has seen us through the worst of times. Has led us to rise, be pushed down, and rise again. Time after time. No. It's because we're just naturally gifted at that, of course. Not by our own works, but by genetics. Because hey, they can take some credit for that at least. After all, when we were treated as cattle, was it not they who decided how we were allowed to love and form families?

Our history is one of constantly pushing against a wall that barely budges. And I'm proud of that history, make no mistake. Members of my family have spilled blood for that history. And if the moment arises, I will as well. But that's not a history you look back on fondly. That you tell happy stories about. That's not a time where any of us can put on the rose-tinted glasses of nostalgia and say 'if only.' If only I was born back then, wouldn't that have been great. Not like the times of knights and castles. Viking raids. Samurai. Our best days, from any perspective, are ahead of us, unless our best days are now and it's all down hill.

We have no fantasies of fantastical times we could have had but for the quirk of time. And that's something no one else is going to understand.
 
Last edited:

IrishNinja

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,574
Vice City
good OP man, i think this kinda came up elsewhere when talking about how black culture out here is american culture, but white culture isn't the same because of (as you said) the preservation of cultural history & all, without all the atrocities in between.

i literally can't wait for friday, but knowing what all this means to others makes it even greater.
 

ShortNasty

Member
Dec 15, 2017
1,005
I’m not gonna say something glib like “#facts” or “#truth” even though I really want to. You hit all of the nails directly on the head. I remember you talking about this idea a day or so ago in another thread. Glad you did it.

It does sometimes feel like we (blacks) are grasping for something, anything, to anchor us. I’m not sure if that makes sense, but think of how quickly and powerfully damn loads of just got hyped off of a single trailer. I’m not really smart enough to keep pulling at this thread, but I feel you.

Also, maybe a few hundred or thousands of years down the road, people will look at some of the figures highlighted during this month as the beginning of a new (Western Hemisphere) black tapestry.
 

CoolestSpot

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,325
Interesting and depressing. As a white guy I always was jealous of Black culture for being seemingly strongly tied to the roots of its culture and a shared origin between people. I guess I failed to realize white culture has by force made itself the main one.

I only hope for a future where everyone's culture can shine through full force and take effect
 
Oct 27, 2017
11,408
Someone I know brought this up recently about a coworker who didn’t understand the gravity of this and asked them would they give up their culture to fully assimilate and it’s had me thinking how I don’t know and will never know my ancestry. We’ve nothing to pass on and it’s heartbreaking.
 

Keywork

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,917
Teaching at a predominately black middle school, I see Black Panther as so much more than just the next great Marvel movie. Not many kids are talking about it and I would love to ask my students how many of them are excited to see it, but I don't want to cross any lines as a white male and come off in poor taste. Anyone have any tips?
 

Paradox House

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,115
I'll side step your point on African culture as I think its very ignorant. However you should take heart that your ancestors brought some of their culture with them, yes it is now distinct from African culture and is really a mesh of multiple cultures - but you can still trace it back.

Look across the Caribbean where there is a rich and unique culture. The problem in America (and I dont have a fix for this) is much of the culture has to be formed around living where racism is rife but I think despite that there is a clear African culture in modern black culture.
 

CoolestSpot

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,325
Teaching at a predominately black middle school, I see Black Panther as so much more than just the next great Marvel movie. Not many kids are talking about it and I would love to ask my students how many of them are excited to see it, but I don't want to cross any lines as a white male and come off in poor taste. Anyone have any tips?
Ask for class discussion who would win Batman or Black Panther. Slightly hint at white generational money and privilege through it but mainly discuss how dope Black Panther is and bring up the money
 

Tablo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
23
You should read about Pan-Africanism, Kwame Nkrumah and DuBois, as well as George Padmore. Garyeyism (Marcus Garvey) also relevant.
But remember, why should you feel a connection to something called 'Africa'? it's a continent with a lot of different people organized in different ways, and treating it as a homogenous and collective culture is wrong. Black people in the United States who are descendants of slaves are an identifiable particular group, and then who knows from what culture and what place in Africa their ancestors were taken from. So even then, everyone has their own background, better to understand and embrace the diversity rather than try to fabricate some pretty vague generalized story that fits all.
Your personal struggle in defining your own cultural background, I can empathize with, no need to get too caught up or lost in it though.
No need to rely on myth and made up feel good culture. Just try to understand whats going on and what happened is my advice.
 

Pooh

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,846
The Hundred Acre Wood
I'm glad you brought this up because it always seemed to me like... I don't know, Black Panther would also be sort of depressing, but as a white guy I didn't feel it was my place to bring it up. Thanks for a thoughtful post OP.
 

Deleted member 3058

User requested account closure
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,728
This is a fantastic thread and there is a hidden sadness to all of this celebration that you perfectly captured. It's not surface level and you have to look for it, but it's always there.
Ask why we can't model ourselves after the other "successful" minorities, but then conveniently forget that they enacted Jim Crow, burned Black Wall Street to the ground along with every other historically black community that achieved a modicum of success, and then declared it was time to "desegregate." Can you possibly understand what it is like not having any connection to a past that doesn't start in the chains of the 1600's?

Whether Thor continues to exist in the Marvel-verse has no bearing on the perpetuation of his entire myth that ties to an entire people. Black Panther, on the other hand, is no actual myth of the African-American people. Rather, he and his entire fictional universe, exists as the dream of a broken people. A look of what could have been, instead of what was. A glimpse at a foggy past, in a future world. It's not a world we can recognize from our past, but a rediscovering of what our past and future could have looked like.
Just.. amazingly well put. Like, damn.
 

Deleted member 8741

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
4,940
Thank you for sharing. I can't put myself in your place to know what it's like, but it breaks my heart to hear it.

I celebrate Black Panther's success and hope it is a small beacon of light for you.

May we work together for a better future than the horrible past my fathers created.
 

CoolestSpot

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,325
I want to link post on Facebook or something now. Like legit required reading.

This is why you can always trust Kylo-Ren fan boys. Thanks for an excellent write up OP
 

sprsk

Resettlement Advisor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,171
Yuuuuuuup, this is why when people are like "But blade and meteor man" I'm like this is totally different thing. Black Panther isn't just a black superhero, he's a hero for the culture and the history.
 

SolVanderlyn

I love pineapple on pizza!
Member
Oct 28, 2017
11,786
Earth, 21st Century
Yeah, I think about stuff like this all the time. Cultural identity is so often viewed through the lens of who has power and wealth, and who doesn`t. European cultures have wealth of history and technological advancements, so they naturally get shoehorned into the top of society, and it becomes common knowledge. We forget that the almost-wasteland of the Middle East used to be the center of human civilization. Countries that are less powerful today, like Egypt, used to be number one. Africa is the literal beginning point of all humans. How many number ones don`t even exist anymore? How many number ones were lost entirely? How many at the bottom have climbed to the top and been shot back down again?

Black Panther is not only going to be a dope movie based on the fact that it`s about a high tech superhero in one of the most original settings in the Marvel universe, but also because it`s some really interesting social commentary. How much does the level of technological and cultural advancement affect how groups of people, or even entire places, are valued in society, especially through the eyes of those on top?
 

Coyote Starrk

The Fallen
Oct 30, 2017
25,956
I feel bad now that I simply quoted the "Well Damn" comment left it at that, but that was my literal reaction. As a white guy I can't put myself in your shoes OP, but when I read the situation like that my reaction is just........damn. I don't know what else to say.
 

SecondNature

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,276
Teaching at a predominately black middle school, I see Black Panther as so much more than just the next great Marvel movie. Not many kids are talking about it and I would love to ask my students how many of them are excited to see it, but I don't want to cross any lines as a white male and come off in poor taste. Anyone have any tips?
Why not just ask?
 

Deleted member 26909

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 30, 2017
153
Thank you so much for writing all of this. Of all the takes I've seen on why Black Panther is important, I haven't come across this one yet. You're an intelligent person, BossAttack. I look forward to hearing more from you.
 
OP
OP
BossAttack

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
28,905
I’m not gonna say something glib like “#facts” or “#truth” even though I really want to. You hit all of the nails directly on the head. I remember you talking about this idea a day or so ago in another thread. Glad you did it.

It does sometimes feel like we (blacks) are grasping for something, anything, to anchor us. I’m not sure if that makes sense, but think of how quickly and powerfully damn loads of just got hyped off of a single trailer. I’m not really smart enough to keep pulling at this thread, but I feel you.

Also, maybe a few hundred or thousands of years down the road, people will look at some of the figures highlighted during this month as the beginning of a new (Western Hemisphere) black tapestry.
Yeah, I been thinking about for a while and needed some time to focus on it and not be just angry too.


I'll side step your point on African culture as I think its very ignorant. However you should take heart that your ancestors brought some of their culture with them, yes it is now distinct from African culture and is really a mesh of multiple cultures - but you can still trace it back.

Look across the Caribbean where there is a rich and unique culture. The problem in America (and I dont have a fix for this) is much of the culture has to be formed around living where racism is rife but I think despite that there is a clear African culture in modern black culture.
You should read about Pan-Africanism, Kwame Nkrumah and DuBois, as well as George Padmore. Garyeyism (Marcus Garvey) also relevant.
But remember, why should you feel a connection to something called 'Africa'? it's a continent with a lot of different people organized in different ways, and treating it as a homogenous and collective culture is wrong. Black people in the United States who are descendants of slaves are an identifiable particular group, and then who knows from what culture and what place in Africa their ancestors were taken from. So even then, everyone has their own background, better to understand and embrace the diversity rather than try to fabricate some pretty vague generalized story that fits all.
Your personal struggle in defining your own cultural background, I can empathize with, no need to get too caught up or lost in it though.
No need to rely on myth and made up feel good culture. Just try to understand whats going on and what happened is my advice.
I feel your both missing the point. First, obviously modern African-American/Western culture is influenced by our African roots. That's how Blues, Jazz, and Hip-Hop came about with their overbearing basis on drums. The point is we have no fucking clue what that past was like, you can trace Jazz back to a particular part of Africa but what the fuck does that mean to us on an individual level? Second, I am not saying we should feel a connection to a homogenized Africa, that's the whole point I brought up in the OP. "Africa" never existed, we were a diverse and disparate set of people with our own unique history and culture. That culture was lost in time and forced into homogenization as we were shipped to the new world. Our culture begins with the bonds of slavery, everything before that has been "lost." No other large set of people on the planet really have this same problem.
 

Deleted member 15326

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,219
You should read about Pan-Africanism, Kwame Nkrumah and DuBois, as well as George Padmore. Garyeyism (Marcus Garvey) also relevant.
But remember, why should you feel a connection to something called 'Africa'? it's a continent with a lot of different people organized in different ways, and treating it as a homogenous and collective culture is wrong. Black people in the United States who are descendants of slaves are an identifiable particular group, and then who knows from what culture and what place in Africa their ancestors were taken from. So even then, everyone has their own background, better to understand and embrace the diversity rather than try to fabricate some pretty vague generalized story that fits all.
Your personal struggle in defining your own cultural background, I can empathize with, no need to get too caught up or lost in it though.
No need to rely on myth and made up feel good culture. Just try to understand whats going on and what happened is my advice.
I don't believe the OP was soliciting advice, especially not the kind that ignores the majority of what he was saying.
 

TheHunter

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,447
This isn't a star wars prequel thread.

But yeah it is tragic how much culture was lost; slavery's effects was more than just dehumanizing. Culture, art; music and religion were all lost to the slaves and that effect is still felt to this day. The silver lining to it is that you ended up forging your own identity. Not worth the chains and debasement but African American culture is rich and has brought a lot to both Americana and the world at large. It's just a pity AA's aren't more recognized and respected in America.
 

Zaph

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,107
Bruv I've got nothing to add other than I feel ya

I've grown up in western opportunity while having the ability to visit my father's homeland whenever I've wanted to. That's a privilege and I never forget it.
 

Tablo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
23
Hmm I get your point then, it’s about the kind of level of records and detail and history that is preserved and accessible.
And the brutality and destruction towards black/African culture over time by colonial, neocolonial, a lot of sources and America’s white supremacy.
I’m a history major, in a good African history seminar this quarter.
 
OP
OP
BossAttack

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
28,905
This isn't a star wars prequel thread.
Yet...

EDIT:
Hmm I get your point then, it’s about the kind of level of records and detail and history that is preserved and accessible.
And the brutality and destruction towards black/African culture over time by colonial, neocolonial, a lot of sources and America’s white supremacy.
I’m a history major, in a good African history seminar this quarter.
It's not even just that, but that this past culture is not disseminated. It is not part of the cultural zeitgeist of the African-American/Western experience. You can learn about African history in a College history class, but it isn't something you can tap easily tap into on a subconscious cultural level. Simple things like nursery rhymes and fairy tales go a large way into preserving and perpetuating culture. African versions of these have been mostly lost or forgotten, especially in the new world. When you read or watch Lord of the Rings, you aren't simply enjoying a fictional world. You are being exposed to Western-Medieval culture and history. The mythical allure of the Samurai is a connection that Japanese people will always have to their past, legends they will always be able to pass down that ties their current world to their past. It doesn't matter about the "reality" of what the Samurai were, the idea of the Samurai is a powerful cultural connection.

We don't have those things.
 
Last edited:

Jam

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,647
Great OP, interesting read.

Regarding modern culture though, do you not feel some sort of identity tied to African-American culture? Or excitement at the development of that culture itself? While born out of two differing cultures it stands on its own two feet now with its own identity and all that comes with it.

(Aside from the dismay at the cultural appropriation you mentioned.)
 

HeySeuss

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
5,967
Ohio
I can't love this thread enough. I've been telling people how excited I am that the black community finally has something that doesn't make them a token or a side kick or comic relief for a change. Not only is BP a badass that doesn't play off a white costar, but the entire culture and level of Independence is something we've never seen before given so much respect and reverence. This is going to be a cultural phenomenon that we may never sadly see again.

And I'm white as rice.
 

Frostinferno

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,277
Eye-opening OP. Good shit man!

Don’t quote me on this, but I think Killmonger’s story in the movie deals with this.
 

PoppaBK

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,128
Excellent post, but this:
And, even those black individuals that might actually be from an African nation, it's unlikely that even they have any knowledge of their actual past history and culture. Rather, they have the history and culture of a post-colonialist nation, drafted by European nations drawing indiscriminate lines to conjure up entire nations where dozens of tribes likely lived separate from one another. Their history and culture is that of a response to a new order, as opposed to a continuation of the old.
has happened in some form to pretty much every civilization that has ever existed. Its why countries like Yugoslavia just implode all of a sudden as divides centuries deep suddenly tear them asunder. Its why you have separatist movements in Italy and Spain and other countries. Take a look at a map of Europe circa 1200 and you'll see lots of countries that simply don't exist anymore.
 

EdibleKnife

Member
Oct 29, 2017
7,723
Wow. You are not wrong in the least Boss. Even as an Nigerian, the pain of colonialism and its impact on the land of my mother and father, my family history, African legacy; it all still stings. And I know that that hurt is galaxies worse for African-Americans who've descended from the first generations kidnapped and dragged to the states. To have to create culture from near scratch and have it brutalized again and again by blows of white supremacy, it's frustrating to see throughout American history and even worse is America is also so desperate to gloss over it.