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"Black Panther fails to provide an exciting alternative to the western concept of development"- HT

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DosaDaRaja

DosaDaRaja

Member
Oct 26, 2017
963
Finally watched the movie today, and, while I did like what I saw, this article by The Hindustan Times, does tend to touch on something that I felt to be sorta true- that this film shows a Westernised version of what they consider a "Third-World Futuristic Nation" to be.

https://m.hindustantimes.com/editor...lopment/story-wDof55G2fYJPFDzcmIkjpI_amp.html

Some bits from the article:

Instead what we see is a well-lit Gotham City located in a green valley. It is almost as if the western idea of development and technological advancement – slick, white labs with minimalist furniture, tall glass and metal buildings, and an inexplicable aversion to sandals in formal spaces – the inevitable telos of all civilisation; as though any culture, with any philosophy would necessarily have eventually found its way to what 21st century America is.
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There is no departure from a contemporary American/western trajectory of technological progress in this untouched African nation (except for one excellent divergence from typical American action films: the absence of guns in fight sequences). In the final turn, as Wakanda decides to emerge from secrecy to share technological know-how with the rest of the world, it is only in service of a very American problem.
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Limited as it is by the demands of the MCU franchise and an American worldview, Black Panther pays lip service to the many histories of the glorified mother continent. Africa ideals of traditional knowledge, sustainable development and pastoralism find little prominence in this Americanised ideal of a successful African nation state. In an unintentionally funny moment, the war cry of a rival tribe's leader (muted, in New Delhi) is an incongruous invocation to Hanuman.
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In essence, Black Panther simply doesn't go as far with its concept as it could go.

What are your thoughts?
 

TheLittlestHobo

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
223
Black Panther was basically Disney Corporation patting black people on the head and telling them not to be too radical.

The irony of them using 'the revolution will not be televised' as a cool song to put on the trailer.
 
ThatWasAJoke

ThatWasAJoke

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,373
I think it makes good points. Black Panther doesn't feature African actors. It does depict a western trajectory just in a place where it didn't happen. If I were African I think I'd find cause to be frustrated by the appropriation of my culture for Disney's gain - but I'm not, so my voice shouldn't be that important here. Wonder what others think.
 
BocoDragon

BocoDragon

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,207
BP is not actually a true expression of non-European descended futurism. It's from America. It's from Hollywood. It's from Marvel. It's from Disney (to put it bluntly: white, white, white, white).

It's a great first start though. It primed the market to accept more in the future. I consider it a first step towards even more truly non-Euro/American visions of fantasy/sci-fi/Adventure.
 
T'Challa Shakur

T'Challa Shakur

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,487
Toronto
ThatWasAJoke said:
I think it makes good points. Black Panther doesn't feature African actors. It does depict a western trajectory just in a place where it didn't happen. If I were African I think I'd find cause to be frustrated by the appropriation of my culture for Disney's gain - but I'm not, so my voice shouldn't be that important here. Wonder what others think.
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Lupita Nyongo?
 

notBald

Member
Oct 27, 2017
392
Huh. First time I've heard of "Black Panther," or this movie. Is he new?

Regardless, I'm not surprised it doesn't do a good job depicting an African future. World building has never been a strength of super hero movies, AFAIK they're all just slapdash made to look impressive with little thought put into the world itself. There may be exceptions, possibly Watchmen, but more often then not it's just a bunch of random locations for all those cool scenes. Going into a superhero movie expecting a coherent and vibrant world is setting yourself up for disappointment.
 
Dreams-Visions

Dreams-Visions

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
41,368
Miami, FL
Director is a black man from Oakland and the comic book franchise was written by Americans. Don't @ us American blacks for doing the best we know how to do. Also, why is it BP's burden to reinvent what technological advancement looks like? There were fantastic touches all around the sky scraper design, market design, fashion, etc. Like, get the stick out of your ass.

notBald said:
Huh. First time I've heard of "Black Panther," or this movie. .
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huh?
 
Soundscream

Soundscream

Member
Nov 2, 2017
9,234
Some people already complained about slow parts, imagining the part of film where they cover pastoralism. LOL
 
Supermanisdead

Supermanisdead

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,223
It's almost like there's no frame of reference for a futuristic African society free from any colonization or Western influence.
 
TheChuggernaut

TheChuggernaut

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,216
Good lord that is a shoddy looking website. There's some interesting points, but we don't actually know what a futuristic African society would look like so it's all just speculation.
 
Afrikan

Afrikan

Member
Oct 28, 2017
16,988
What in the fuck?

People always looking for something to argue/debate or hate about. I'm out, fuck this.
 
Ferrs

Ferrs

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
18,829
Man it feels to me that some people really try their best to nitpick about BP.
 
FaceHugger

FaceHugger

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
13,949
USA
The advanced world over appears that way, not just the United States. In fact, Wakanda in the film reminded me more of Singapore or (especially) Kuala Lumpur than it did any US city.

As for the rest, we can't really know what an ultra-advanced African nation would resemble, what trajectories it would take. I think the filmmakers did a wonderful job of creating a convincing, authentic feeling civilization that was able to hold onto their age-old customs and traditions because they were sheltered, isolated, and advanced enough to do so.
 
Dreams-Visions

Dreams-Visions

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
41,368
Miami, FL

TheLittlestHobo

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
223
Why do people get so upset when people talk about something they like in a way that isn't totally adulatory.

They're not saying the movie sucks and they're not saying you suck for not liking the movie.
 
Paradox House

Paradox House

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,115
BocoDragon said:
BP is not actually a true expression of non-European descended futurism. It's from America. It's from Hollywood. It's from Marvel. It's from Disney (to put it bluntly: white, white, white, white).

It's a great first start though. It primed the market to accept more in the future. I consider it a first step towards even more truly non-Euro/American visions of fantasy/sci-fi/Adventure.
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This.
 
Alx

Alx

Member
Oct 27, 2017
660
TheChuggernaut said:
Good lord that is a shoddy looking website. There's some interesting points, but we don't actually know what a futuristic African society would look like so it's all just speculation.
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That's kind of the point, it's an opportunity to imagine something really different, and it ended up as a mix of western references and tribal features. If Wakanda is supposed to be centuries ahead both technologically and sociologically, one would have expected something even more alien. Just look at the evolution of any country in a century. Wakanda in the modern world should feel like comparing current UK to Victorian era, or modern US to the Wild West.
 
Dreams-Visions

Dreams-Visions

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
41,368
Miami, FL
St. Alphonzo said:
I mean, it's not hard. The film isn't very good.

But it's a Disney Marvel film, so people shouldn't really expect it to be.
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don't cut yourself on that edge.

Alx said:
That's kind of the point, it's an opportunity to imagine something really different, and it ended up as a mix of western references and tribal features. If Wakanda is supposed to be centuries ahead both technologically and sociologically, one would have expected something even more alien. Just look at the evolution of any country in a century. Wakanda in the modern world should feel like comparing current UK to Victorian era, or modern US to the Wild West.
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but alien and unrecognizable wasn't the goal?
 
Kain-Nosgoth

Kain-Nosgoth

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,568
Switzerland
i mean... a lot of big cites outisde of america have this look... what's even their point?

so i don't find weird that a technologically advanced african nation would do the same

here's lagos in nigeria :

Lagos-Central-Business-District.jpg


and they're planning to expand even more so that it will ressemble other big city from around the world



Yeah sure the movie is made by americans, not by different nations from africa, but it's a weird thing to complain about here
 
Westbahnhof

Westbahnhof

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
10,105
Austria
ThatWasAJoke said:
I think it makes good points. Black Panther doesn't feature African actors. It does depict a western trajectory just in a place where it didn't happen. If I were African I think I'd find cause to be frustrated by the appropriation of my culture for Disney's gain - but I'm not, so my voice shouldn't be that important here. Wonder what others think.
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Wait, I was under the impression it did? Is this a joke? The rest of your post seems serious, but with a name like yours, I'm not sure if you're messing with me.
 
Soundscream

Soundscream

Member
Nov 2, 2017
9,234
TheLittlestHobo said:
Yes, everyone who disagrees with you about some new Marvel movie is just trying to be edgy, or they've fabricated an opinion in a desire for clicks. No legitimate opposing viewpoint can possibly exist. Thanks for your contribution to the discussion.
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Every metric availible says otherwise. Its ok to go against the grain, but dont present your opinion as a universally agreed fact when all evidence points against it.
 
Dreams-Visions

Dreams-Visions

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
41,368
Miami, FL
TheLittlestHobo said:
Yes, everyone who disagrees with you about some new Marvel movie is just trying to be edgy, or they've fabricated an opinion in a desire for clicks. No legitimate opposing viewpoint can possibly exist. Thanks for your contribution to the discussion.
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when you're ready to add something yourself to the discussion, I'm ready to be impressed.

So far you've offered exactly 2 posts, neither of which offer any commentary to the discussion. Instead, you've spent both of your posts critiquing other people critiquing the subject matter at hand. Meanwhile both of my posts have addressed the topic.

By my math, you're 0 - 2 in offering anything to the discussion, yet you ask me to contribute more to the discussion that you yourself have offered absolutely nothing to. You see how silly you look, right?

Ball's in your court. You gonna continue thread whining about people who disagree with the author's opinion or not?
 
Ferrs

Ferrs

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
18,829
St. Alphonzo said:
I mean, it's not hard. The film isn't very good.

But it's a Disney Marvel film, so people shouldn't really expect it to be.
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One thing is argue about if the movie is good or not, but the discussion about "it's not african enough" "to americanized" "this futuristic city is not what imagine what a futuristic Africa should be" feels like nitpicking to me. It may not be perfect but BP still did more than, like, any other super hero movie, and even outside that genre. Yet here we are.

It feels more, as Dream-Visions said, discussions just created for the clicks.
 
Westbahnhof

Westbahnhof

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
10,105
Austria
The Almighty Tria said:
Like, the entire world is influenced by Western development. Why would the fictional nation be the only one?
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Because they're ahead of the western world in development.
I mean, I think the movie did it just fine, but the whole point is that Wakanda is ahead, and thus developed not influenced by the ways of the west.

St. Alphonzo said:
Is it an edgy "hot take" to say that a film that isn't particular good... isn't particularly good?

Calm down, guys.

While it's probably good that, of all these hackneyed Marvel films, this one is doing well financially, it's still a hackneyed Marvel film and not particularly good.

Maybe they'll do better next time.
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Oh come on. You're still just stating that it's not good like it's as objective as sea water being salty or some crap.
People stated that their problem with your post was the lack of backing for the opinion, and you're just going "well it's just bad, calm down".
 
TheChuggernaut

TheChuggernaut

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,216
TheLittlestHobo said:
Yes, everyone who disagrees with you about some new Marvel movie is just trying to be edgy, or they've fabricated an opinion in a desire for clicks. No legitimate opposing viewpoint can possibly exist. Thanks for your contribution to the discussion.
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Mate, that guy he was responding just came into the thread and said a movie that is critically, culturally, and financially successful is garbage with nothing to actually back it up, and you're going to going to call out this guy for not contributing to the discussion? It's chill if you don't like the movie, but this thread isn't exactly about that.
 
St. Alphonzo

St. Alphonzo

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
851
Dreams-Visions said:
don't cut yourself on that edge.
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Soundscream said:
HOT TAKE COMING THROUGH!!!!
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Demolition_Human said:
Look, more hot takes.
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Is it an edgy "hot take" to say that a film that isn't particular good... isn't particularly good?

Calm down, guys.

While it's probably good that, of all these hackneyed Marvel films, this one is doing well financially, it's still a hackneyed Marvel film and not particularly good.

Maybe they'll do better next time.
 
Rogote

Rogote

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,606
Dudes, you can like the movie. It's ok to like the movie even if others don't. No need to attack them with the "hot take" rhetoric. You can't expect everyone to like it, and you can't exepct people who didn't like it to just not voice their dislike of it.
 
Dreams-Visions

Dreams-Visions

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
41,368
Miami, FL
The Almighty Tria said:
Like, the entire world is influenced by Western development. Why would the fictional nation be the only one?
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in the author's opinion: simply because it could be the only one. that's literally enough for him or her to pen the opinion. It should have gone further because he/she can imagine further. Never mind the director's vision as a black man from Oakland. He needed to do more than offer one of the most powerful and empowering visions of Africa to date. Nope, gotta do more. Like, okay. Thanks for your thoughts and concern? And best of luck on the clicks that you appear thirsty for.
 
Demolition_Human

Demolition_Human

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,458
NC
St. Alphonzo said:
Is it an edgy "hot take" to say that a film that isn't particular good... isn't particularly good?

Calm down, guys.

While it's probably good that, of all these hackneyed Marvel films, this one is doing well financially, it's still a hackneyed Marvel film and not particularly good.

Maybe they'll do better next time.
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Yeah, reviews say otherwise to that drivel that leaves your mouth that you call gospel. But nice try.
 
Speevy

Speevy

Member
Oct 26, 2017
19,351
I'm not sure I understand this blockbuster comic book movie's moral obligation to be so many things to so many people. I thought it was unique among Marvel movies both for its setting and themes. I enjoyed it.
 
TheChuggernaut

TheChuggernaut

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,216
Shredderi said:
Dudes, you can like the movie. It's ok to like the movie even if others don't. No need to attack them with the "hot take" rhetoric. You can't expect everyone to like it, and you can't exepct people who didn't like it to just not voice their dislike of it.
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This is my last post about it because this is super off topic. Saying "This movie is bad." does fuck all for discussion, and is just wasting everyone's time. No one can read your mind, no one knows what you mean. You need to actually articulate the issues you have with the film if you want your opinion to be taken seriously and not just dismissed.
 
OP
OP
DosaDaRaja

DosaDaRaja

Member
Oct 26, 2017
963
Kain-Nosgoth said:
i mean... a lot of big cites outisde of america have this look... what's even their point?

so i don't find weird that a technologically advanced african nation would do the same

here's lagos in nigeria :

Lagos-Central-Business-District.jpg


and they're planning to expand even more so that it will ressemble other big city from around the world



Yeah sure the movie is made by americans, not by different nations from africa, but it's a weird thing to complain about here
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You could argue a lot of other nations are taking cues from already existing infrastructure in the developed nations into account while making their own buildings, leading to a homogenisation of architecture across the world.

The Almighty Tria said:
Like, the entire world is influenced by Western development. Why would the fictional nation be the only one?
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You could argue that said fictional nation is isolated from other countries, and as shown in the film, is hilariously ahead of them, and thus, should have it's own semblence of identity.
 
Dreams-Visions

Dreams-Visions

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
41,368
Miami, FL
Speevy said:
I'm not sure I understand this blockbuster comic book movie's moral obligation to be so many things to so many people.
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It doesn't have any obligation other than to satisfy the people who made it and those who go see it.

Idunno. It just feels like clickbait. "I could imagine something wilder, so let me write a critique piece saying that it should have matched something I can imagine." Like, okay. But the black director seemed happy with it. The black cast seemed happy with it. Nobody has suggested their vision was limited by executives. They made the movie they wanted to make (within the framework of a MCU movie, ofc.)
 
Sinfamy

Sinfamy

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,724
"Western development".
There are architectural differences, sure.

But this slightly triggers me, reminds me of the whole "western science" Cape Town fiasco.

Both an African and a British engineer should reach the same general conclusions in development, the only thing lacking is funding and access to education.
 
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