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BDS

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,845
Esports publication Upcomer is the latest to report that a 2-2-2 role lock is coming to the Overwatch League, and yesterday ex-Gladiators player Fissure confirmed that it is coming in stage 4.

While not confirmed for the actual game, it has long been rumored that a 2-2-2 lock is coming to the game itself soon, probably around the same time as it's added to OWL. The Upcomer article says Blizzard has delayed the rollout several times.

A 2-2-2 lock (meaning a team can only have 2 DPS characters, 2 tanks, and 2 supports) would be the most substantial balance change made to the game since they removed the ability to have duplicate heroes on a team in the summer of 2016. Many players have argued over the years that a 2-2-2 lock would help balance the game and prevent the notorious situation of having few tanks or supports in low-level games, while others have argued that it would stagnate creativity of team compositions. The argument finally came to a head over the last year when a composition called GOATS, consisting of three tanks and three supports, began dominating the metagame and the Overwatch League, resulting in widespread backlash to the game's balance and OWL (as well as harassment against completely undeserving targets). Over the last few months, the growing consensus in the competitive community has been that a 2-2-2 lock is the only way to fully kill GOATS and similar compositions that exploit the game's unbalanced issue around multiple healers with area-of-effect abilities.

If this lock were added to the game, it would likely be accompanied by a role queue, another feature long requested by the playerbase that would allow players to queue up for a game in their preferred role, eliminating the bickering and debate over which role to play in exchange for what will likely be longer queue times. Blizzard has previously claimed that their internal testing indicated a role queue would increase queue times to an unacceptable degree, but they have never provided hard numbers on what that means.

It's unclear if this change would also be accompanied by the major balance changes that would likely be needed to accomodate this new situation. Many characters have been buffed or nerfed based on their relation to GOATS, and a number of characters like Sombra or Brigitte fill hybrid or niche roles that are disrupted by a forced role lock. One reason I was hoping that the rumored "Overwatch 2" would be a completely new game instead of a singleplayer expansion is because I feel these fundamental balance issues are too severe to be fixed with patches and bandaids and need to be completely redesigned from the ground up.

In any case, OWL stage 4 and its 2-2-2 role lock will begin on July 25. It is unknown when Blizzard plans to make an official announcement.
 

Deleted member 8861

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
10,564
Interesting... I can definitely see the point of balancing things out this way but at the same time, there'll be a lot of interesting team compositions (not that my lowly silver ass has ever really seen any) lost to this change if it is game-wide.

However, sometimes creativity is born out of constraints, so we might see amazing stuff out of this yet.
 

SirKai

Member
Dec 28, 2017
7,365
Washington
Shame it came to this, but it really is necessary for OWL. I can't believe it didn't get implemented for Stage 3 (of which I've watched 0% of. I'll hop back into Stage 4 with 2-2-2).
 

RecRoulette

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,044
As much as I love the change to 2-2-2, doing it 75% into the season of your professional league is hilariously stupid and feels like a desperate attempt to get viewers if the actual game doesn't get it as well.

As I've said before a 2-2-2 lock would get me to play Overwatch again.
 

El_Chino

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,110
Worst decision ever.
Unless the workshop, Blizzard has not done one really good update since launch.
It eliminates GOATS, it eliminates people going damage instead of tank/healer, and it would make Overwatch League and Overwatch competitive more interesting and fun to watch/play again.
 

leenbzoold

Member
Apr 5, 2018
1,557
wow. And i hoped that regular comp would go "no restrictions" one day, allowing for much more compositions and strats.
 

Zutrax

Member
Oct 31, 2017
4,191
I'm not crazy for thinking this is a good thing right? I don't play much Overwatch anymore, but when I did play I remember the times I got teams that were basically all Widowmakers or Hanzos and that shit was annoying as hell.
 

NediarPT88

Member
Oct 29, 2017
15,080
Good.

The timing is really stupid for OWL, but iirc it was kinda the same shit last year. First 3 stages dive then 4th stage and playoffs sniper meta

Anyway the game as a whole really needed this a long time ago, better late than never.
 

Skel1ingt0n

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,716
I have nearly 500 hours in OW.

This still doesn't fix people insta-locking Hanzo and Widow (which happens ALL THE TIME in gold and silver) and now no matter what you're gonna be straight fucked.

I don't have a problem with 2/2/2... but I do have one with applying it to this game. This will fundamentally change the ENTIRE feel of the game and what I've enjoyed. This is the kinda thing that if I'm being honest, is why I DONT like GaaS. This isn't what I bought the game for.

If they're working on an OW2 for real, then sure, do it for that and I'd be there day one. But this seems so reactionary, especially since we've heard over and over it was never gonna happen.
 

Deleted member 16657

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,198
God Blizzard is such a flailing trainwreck when it comes to balancing.

"We won't implement role queue we'll just balance goats"

*1 year later*

"Ah fuck it lets just implement role queue"
 

MCD

Honest Work
Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,754
There are pros and cons to this but we won't know till they enforce it. We need more data.
 

Azzanadra

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,804
Canada
I haven't played Overwatch in a year, and every time I hear news about it, the more reluctant I am to go back.
 
Last edited:
Feb 24, 2018
5,223
Question, when you say add it to the game, does that mean just competitive mode, or that plus Quickly and/or Arcade? The former I'd be okay with, the latter not so much.
 

Deleted member 203

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,899
I haven't played OW in like 2 years or something, but this seems like a bit of an admission of defeat? Like, they can't balance the game to the point where leaving roles unrestricted doesn't fuck up the meta somehow.

I could maybe see an argument for trying this in comp for a while, at least. But yeah, not sure if this bodes well for the game overall.
 

Deleted member 15440

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,191
every ranked game i've played this season i've had at least 3 (sometimes 4) people instalocking DPS and refusing to switch roles so i hope this comes to the main game too

it never used to be this bad, people just don't give a fuck anymore
 

Mafro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,364
Think of all the rage quits of children not getting to go their favourite DPS character and refusing to play as anyone else ever.
 

NotLiquid

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
34,748
Really, really not sure how to feel about this. Dominant strategy sucks and all but this feels like throwing the baby out with the bath water.
 

LiK

Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,045
Won't fix anything for regular players in terms of people tilting or throwing from losing rounds. But role queue is something I had wanted way back so I didn't need to worry about what I played when I entered match.
 
OP
OP
BDS

BDS

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,845
Question, when you say add it to the game, does that mean just competitive mode, or that plus Quickly and/or Arcade? The former I'd be okay with, the latter not so much.

We don't know. When the duplicate hero limit was first added, it was only for competitive. Blizzard eventually rolled it out to all modes a few months later.
 

JayWood2010

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,120
It was needed. Not only does it get rid of GOATS, but it also gets rid of the overload of DPS players on one team.

I love this game, and it truly is amazing, but its the community, and how they play that can end up hurting the games. GOATS, and unbalanced teams picking DPS and then inevitably pointing the finger at other players for losing hurts the game.
 

Deleted member 23212

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
11,225
I guess they can experiment with it, I think if OW2 is truly a think that they should try as many of this stuff as possible with the first game to ensure that the second one is strong out of the gate.
 

TheChits

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,158
I haven't played OW in like 2 years or something, but this seems like a bit of an admission of defeat? Like, they can't balance the game to the point where leaving roles unrestricted doesn't fuck up the meta somehow.

I could maybe see an argument for trying this in comp for a while, at least. But yeah, not sure if this bodes well for the game overall.
This is absolutely them admitting defeat, throwing their hands up, and saying screw it. A huge bummer that it has come to this
 

Patapuf

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,407
This kinda sucks?

But Blizzard has also never managed to balance the game in a way where different kinds of composition (in terms of role) were viable. So maybe this is the better option.
 

Deleted member 15440

User requested account closure
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Oct 27, 2017
4,191
I haven't played OW in like 2 years or something, but this seems like a bit of an admission of defeat? Like, they can't balance the game to the point where leaving roles unrestricted doesn't fuck up the meta somehow.

I could maybe see an argument for trying this in comp for a while, at least. But yeah, not sure if this bodes well for the game overall.
i kind of agree but it's really necessary. a balance between player freedom and game balance has to be struck.

it's similar to hero stacking, which theoretically allows more team compositions but in practice one particular makeup proves to be overwhelmingly strong and there's no reason to play anything else. forced 2-2-2 will probably result in more hero diversity in the league.
 

Bunkles

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,663
Sounds awful. Clearly an admission of defeat though Blizzard has been flailing about with Overwatch since launch.
 

Letters

Prophet of Truth
Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
4,443
Portugal
Mixed feelings about this if it's game wide. It will help sometimes but then ruin special tacticts or counter in others. Hopefully not forced on Quickplay, the playlist I like to chill on. Two guys will instalock Hanzo and Widow every match and you either quit or play without proper DPSs that impact the match (unless the Hanzo and Widow are amazing, but what are the chances of that happening in the blue team..)
 

SirKai

Member
Dec 28, 2017
7,365
Washington
Really, really not sure how to feel about this. Dominant strategy sucks and all but this feels like throwing the baby out with the bath water.

There's really no solution aside from totally reworking most heroes or reworking how a ton of the mechanics work. They could keep tweaking/buffing/nerfing heroes but they've made SO many changes up to this point and none of them have killed GOATS in pro play. If Blizzard still wanted to avoid sweeping systematic changes (like locked 222), they would have to make some characters legitimately unplayable for most players to kill GOATS in pro play.
 

DoublePayje

Member
Oct 29, 2017
172
As much as I love the change to 2-2-2, doing it 75% into the season of your professional league is hilariously stupid and feels like a desperate attempt to get viewers if the actual game doesn't get it as well.

As I've said before a 2-2-2 lock would get me to play Overwatch again.

Same thing they did last season, Blizzard is just awful at this. Imagine being a team manager trying to build the best team possible by trading, scouting and hiring great players before mid-season roster locks kick in. And then Blizzard changes the balance and the expensive squad you assembled is not suited for the new meta in the playoffs.

How do they think this uncertainty makes for a good foundation to run a sports league? Can't wrap my head around it. The change in general is fine and I welcome it, just the timing... yikes.
 

Mecha Meister

Next-Gen Guru
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,801
United Kingdom
If this is added to the game for everyone then I don't like this at all.
People should be free to form the teams they want. This should be optional and not forced on the players, or approached very carefully.
This breaks things like having three tanks, 1 dps and 2 supports etc.
 

Perfect Chaos

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,335
Charlottesville, VA, USA
Was there a particular addition or change to the game that caused the GOATS meta to emerge? Or is it something that's always been possible and has just now gained traction and been proven out in pro play?
 

Acquiescence

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
10,257
Lake Titicaca
That sounds overly restrictive to me. Much of the time you'd be forced to play as a character you don't really want to play as, and being denied your main is no good at all.

As someone who has put more hours into the game than I'd care to admit, I'm ultimately against this. BUT, if Blizzard really want to make a fundamental change to Overwatch, take Hanzo and Widowmaker and launch those two fucks into orbit, never to be seen again. Seriously, I wouldn't complain if they were removed from the game entirely.
 

NediarPT88

Member
Oct 29, 2017
15,080
I have nearly 500 hours in OW.

This still doesn't fix people insta-locking Hanzo and Widow (which happens ALL THE TIME in gold and silver) and now no matter what you're gonna be straight fucked.

I don't have a problem with 2/2/2... but I do have one with applying it to this game. This will fundamentally change the ENTIRE feel of the game and what I've enjoyed. This is the kinda thing that if I'm being honest, is why I DONT like GaaS. This isn't what I bought the game for.

If they're working on an OW2 for real, then sure, do it for that and I'd be there day one. But this seems so reactionary, especially since we've heard over and over it was never gonna happen.

This isn't true at all, Jeff has been talking about being in favor of role queue a long time ago.



Even before this I remember him talking about it, and you can tell by what he's saying (around the 8m mark) they were already thinking about this a long time ago since there's already some tools implemented.
 

Papercuts

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,010
I'm not totally against this but it feels like an admittance to not being able to actually fix the issues with the meta.
 
OP
OP
BDS

BDS

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,845
Was there a particular addition or change to the game that caused the GOATS meta to emerge? Or is it something that's always been possible and has just now gained traction and been proven out in pro play?

Brigitte was added in March 2018 and her area-of-effect healing, which is activated when she attacks enemies, stacks with Lucio's, who also has a speed boost. It took a few months but people eventually figured out that if Brigitte and Lucio were combined with a third healer for direct healing like Zenyatta, they could speed boost slower-moving tanks like Reinhardt, D.Va, and Zarya around the battlefield to slam down upon enemies and kill them quickly. Blizzard nerfed Brigitte nearly a dozen times over the last year and none of the changes have killed GOATS because the real problem is the stacking of AOE healing and speed boost between Brig and Lucio along with other issues like tanks having big health pools that can be refilled quickly with three healers while also doing decent damage.
 

Richietto

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,957
North Carolina
This would actually allow them to balance the game better than they have been. How do you balance a game where you can have any composition inthe game possible? THey limit it like this, they can begin to make the game fun again.
 

Glio

Member
Oct 27, 2017
24,497
Spain
There are too few tanks and supports compared to the rest of the characters to make this viable in the long term.
 

Tbm24

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,222
About fucking time. Can't wait.

As much as I love the change to 2-2-2, doing it 75% into the season of your professional league is hilariously stupid and feels like a desperate attempt to get viewers if the actual game doesn't get it as well.

As I've said before a 2-2-2 lock would get me to play Overwatch again.

Blizzard drastically changed the meta for stage 4 last season. They don't give no fucks. I'm still kind of bitter about it but w/e. In this case I'll 100% take it, fuck GOATS.
 

Psychonaut

Member
Jan 11, 2018
3,207
I've been wanting to get back into Overwatch, but I haven't been plugged into the scene and didn't know a 2-2-2 lock was imminent. I still independently thought of this idea and how rad it would be a couple of days ago, though, so I'm very glad to see this news. I got so tired of being the only support on a team of 5 DPS players, and as soon as GOATS became prevalent it was an incredibly frustrating meta to attempt to contend against (especially when your own team is stubborn and refuses to switch roles to match). GOATS is why I dropped the game again, so if both that AND DPS overload are out, then I'm definitely back in.

The only issue I could foresee is long queue time for DPS players. It's unfortunate, but thankfully it hardly affects me.
 

Deleted member 49804

User requested account closure
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Nov 21, 2018
1,868
It eliminates GOATS, it eliminates people going damage instead of tank/healer, and it would make Overwatch League and Overwatch competitive more interesting and fun to watch/play again.
It eliminates the option to stall a point or payload and clutch a team fight win.
It eliminates or at least drastically limits the option to scout with somba at the start.
It eliminates or at least drastically limits the option to take a quick shot with Widow or Ana at the start.
It eliminates the option to run solo support.
It eliminates the option to run tripple dps.
It eliminates the option to run 3 tank OR 3 supports.
It eliminates the option to run Sombra GOATS.


It makes no sense to do this. It makes no sense with the design principle of switching heroes on the go and for certain situations.
The only possible lock that would be okay is 1-1-1.
That would eliminate GOATS too and also would eliminate no support and no tank composition.
I just can't believe how stupid that decision is. And it was made by experienced game developers who get paid to do that.
 

Deleted member 28461

User requested account closure
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Oct 31, 2017
4,830
My favorite Overwatch moment was when a friend and I managed to get our entire team to play Soldier 76. We won in a dominating fashion. This was just a couple months after the game came out.