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Bloomberg: Star Wars is Struggling to Win Over the Next Generation of Kids

Doctor_Thomas

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,571
they also rely on something new to tell, a different plot than superweapons get destroyed by young wizard with lasersword. Not sure they will ever get this on track again.
I think this is the biggest issue tha the sequels have. It's basically retreading old ground, but Star Wars has so, so much lore that it can pull from and a vast universe to use, but we're getting the same story and I actually like the sequel trilogy.
 

regenhuber

Member
Nov 4, 2017
2,456
People fell in love with Star Wars first because of the amazing and charismatic characters. On top of that you had well designed space ships and everything else...

Now SW is just another thing in the world. It's not special anymore.
That "they made 3 movies before I was born and will never make another one" effect is gone.
A kid born in 2000 has witnessed the release of 2 main entries plus 2 spin offs. On top of two trilogies available on TV/Stream/BD.
Scarcity is good sometimes.
If Disney buys Supreme tomorrow and starts to sell the clothes at every Walmart, kids wouldn't be into Supreme anymore as well.


The new movies are duds to me, honestly. Not surprised that kids aren't into them.
IMO they were decent films, had a good time watching them. And that's it.
Compared to the OG StarWars era (70s, 80s, 90s), Kids these days have so much more shit available for consumption that "good movies" simply don't turn any heads.
 

thewienke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,891
Mary Sue is an extremely sexist and offensive term and belittling of women across the board.

No one is going around calling Luke a “Mary sue” when blew up the Death Star having never flown a space ship or even been in space before for a reason.

Because he is a man. It’s a a blatant and vile sexist term against women. And here you are doubling down on it. Really sad.

There is a reason the alt right love the term Mary Sue. Because it’s fucking sexist.

It’s beyond sexist and offensive you really should stop.
What?

Luke would be a Gary Stu.

People have used these terms for years and years prior to the ST to describe flawless fictional characters. I’ve seen Superman called a Gary Stu a thousand times!
 

Cheebo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,008
Ann Arbor, MI
What?

Luke would be a Gary Stu.

People have used these terms for years and years prior to the ST to describe flawless fictional characters. I’ve seen Superman called a Gary Stu a thousand times!
Mary Sue is a sexist term. It’s slur against women. This isn’t pre-Me Too anymore, it’s not up for debate.

It’s offensive, this isn’t news here.


 

thewienke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,891
Mary Sue is a sexist term. It’s slur against women. This isn’t pre-Me Too anymore, it’s not up for debate.

It’s offensive, this isn’t news here.
So what’s the term for a fictional character that is overly competent in several areas and overcomes difficulties without much issue? It’s a common trope in fiction that needs some kind of identifying term.

Edit: I can see how the gendered version of the phrase makes it problematic, just seems like there should be a replacement term
 

Cheebo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,008
Ann Arbor, MI
So what’s the term for a fictional character that is overly competent in several areas and overcomes difficulties without much issue? It’s a common trope in fiction that needs some kind of identifying term.
I am not sure why you are asking me. It’s been accepted by society as a whole outside the alt-right that Mary Sue is a sexist term and seen as an insult towards women. There are countless articles on this and why it’s a hateful sexist term that is seen as offensive.

How about explaining arguments in depth instead of using sexist attacks?
 

Cheebo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,008
Ann Arbor, MI
Let's call them "Reys" :p
How about Luke’s? Luke blew up the Death Star having never flown an x-wing before or even being in space before that day.

That description fits Luke in ANH a hell of a lot more than it does Rey in TFA or TLJ.

Yet people tend to get more bent out of shape when it’s the woman character. I wonder why? 🤔
 
Oct 26, 2017
4,836
Introduce a fidget spinner droid
That might actually work lol.

they just want to throw blame on the audience rather than their poor decisions. their movies just aren't that interesting
This is also true. A large part of the success of the MCU comes down to having a man with a singular, wide-spanning vision for how all the stories interconnect and evolve. Not dissimilar to the role Lucas used to play.
With the Disney Star Wars films they're just kind of winging it.
 

Ixzion

Member
Nov 7, 2017
112
Mary Sue is an extremely sexist and offensive term and belittling of women across the board.

No one is going around calling Luke a “Mary sue” when blew up the Death Star having never flown a space ship or even been in space before for a reason.

Because he is a man. It’s a a blatant and vile sexist term against women. And here you are doubling down on it. Really sad.

There is a reason the alt right love the term Mary Sue. Because it’s fucking sexist.

It’s beyond sexist and offensive you really should stop.
Here is the definition I was going by:

I did not see anything you mentioned in that particular page, but I will refrain from using the term here from now on because it has distracted from the original point I was trying to make: Rey could have been a way better character than what they gave us.
 
Nov 27, 2017
7,185
Boston MA
Marvel pretty much took over with lots of movies, cartoons, lego games and tv shows.

Star Wars just has the movies and no cartoons or shows and the games have been disappointing (battlefront 2 was alright) so it’s easy to see why kids don’t like it. Solo didn’t help either

Rey is perfectly fine
 

Fj0823

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,259
Costa Rica
How about Luke’s? Luke blew up the Death Star having never flown an x-wing before or even being in space before that day.

That description fits Luke in ANH a hell of a lot more than it does Rey in TFA or TLJ.

Yet people tend to get more bent out of shape when it’s the woman character. I wonder why? 🤔
Nah, male version would be "Kirito" or "Kvothe"

Your pathetic attempt to make it seem like we think only female characters can have such writing flaws is not going to work
 

El Bombastico

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,455
Marvel pretty much took over with lots of movies, cartoons, lego games and tv shows.

Star Wars just has the movies and no cartoons or shows and the games have been disappointing (battlefront 2 was alright) so it’s easy to see why kids don’t like it. Solo didn’t help either

Rey is perfectly fine
That's the problem. Star Wars has never been and never will be the cinematic universe Disney wants it to be (or wanted, since Solo flopping hard as it did panicked them enough to back track alot). They were always event films, one more tale in an epic that centered on a single character in a vast galaxy.

Yes, the EU exists, but, well, the old EU was always kinda crap...
 

golem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,569
Even with the cartoons I havent felt like Star Wars has recently been actually trying to win over younger fans. I'm guessing Lucasfilm/Disney thought they would just tag along on their parents' nostalgia trip but apparently they were wrong
 

Sotha_Sil

Member
Nov 4, 2017
1,549
There's too much JJ in the new films, and it makes them come off as forgettable to me. I walked out of TLJ and felt nothing. It was a movie that was made and I watched it in a theater. I'm saying this about a movie where Luke Skywalker, a legendary character 40 years after his debut, dies. Do you know how hard it is to accomplish that?

Ironically, despite my comments above, Luke and Yoda are the only legacy characters I think they've done a good job with. Their scene together is legitimately one of Star Wars' finest and a proper final chapter to their arc. The rest of it? Feels soul-less to me, just like the new Star Trek movies.

For kids these days, they can get everything new-era Star Wars offers from a variety of other sources. MCU being the big one.
 
Mod post - get back on topic

Pirate Bae

X marks the spot
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
3,611
??
Official Staff Communication
This thread is about why the new Star Wars movies may or may not win over the next generation of kids, not about specific tropes and how they are use or perceived. Please get back on topic.
 

Yasuke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,019
You know he's just as bad

"I just lost my virginity with the sexiest of spirits and I am now the god of sex"

"I really enjoy playing my instrument, let me create a new song that's the bestest song ever written while I play with a broken cord"
Lmao he’s an unreliable ass narrator (and has never described himself or otherwise been described as the god of sex).

Yeah, he’s a talented dude, but he also has a tendency to avoid talking about or otherwise highlighting things he’s not so gifted at.

He pushes the edge of the Gary Stu trope a ton, but I never thought he was as bad as people make him out to be.
 

Khanimus

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
15,142
Greater Vancouver
Thread title says that. But the posts in here do not.

There are a lot of people in this thread who are so deluded they actually think the sequel trilogy has been poorly received.
It’s definitely turned into the former
People being idiots isn't new.

Disney wanted Star Wars to engage with kids from every angle, to become all-encompassing, to make them fans for decades to come. The reality this article is positing is that, even if they coming away liking Star Wars, that's all it kinda is. "Did you enjoy the movie?" "Yup." And that's about it. Their parents probably have a stronger emotional tie than they do. Don't forget just how much of this franchise is built around appealing to the nostalgia of middle-aged dudes.
 

Xando

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,276
That’s because those new movies are mediocre as fuck without nostalgia goggles.
 

Castile

Member
Dec 1, 2017
3,430
Mary Sue is an extremely sexist and offensive term and belittling of women across the board.

No one is going around calling Luke a “Mary sue” when blew up the Death Star having never flown a space ship or even been in space before for a reason.
What! People do name male characters Mary Sue. Look at fucking Kirito from Sword Art Online, or the hundreds of other isekai protagonists.

edit: Sorry for adding in on the thrope conversation. I will stop now.
 

Fj0823

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,259
Costa Rica
When the heroic sacrifice of Luke Skywalker is completely overshadowed by fucking Tony Stark's

You know you fucked up

Kids should be talking about it like TLJ shows them doing it (lol). They aren't.
 

Laser Man

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,290
Another difference between superheroes and regular heroes you see in Star Wars is that superheroes are not defined by their character but their values. You don't run into trouble displaying Batman with a new actor as long as the character has the same values. I think even some big movie producers forget this sometimes. Han Solo was a regular hero so to speak, but he wasn't defined by his values, he was defined by Harrison Ford the actor, that's why people didnt care about that one, that's why they had serious problems with Snyder supes and Batman. In comicbooks they always changed so much around that there wasn't anything else to rely on but the most consistent feature of these characters and that was their values. Star Wars doesn't have that.
 

El Bombastico

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,455
When the heroic sacrifice of Luke Skywalker is completely overshadowed by fucking Tony Stark's

You know you fucked up

Kids should be talking about it like TLJ shows them doing it (lol). They aren't.
Especially when a decade ago, no one outside of the hardcore comic nerds even knew who Tony Stark was.
 

J2 Cool

Member
Oct 26, 2017
963
I think this trilogy is an odd mini-failure. The prequel trilogy despite being worse films, feel much more ingrained in pop culture. In 10 years I see people still quoting them, and this trilogy's role in pop culture kind of waning
 

MagicHobo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
779
Especially when a decade ago, no one outside of the hardcore comic nerds even knew who Tony Stark was.
But we are talking about kids, many of whom were in diapers or didn’t even exist a decade ago. They’ve never known a world where comic book movies weren’t the most mainstream form of entertainment. To them it’s as if Iron Man has always been a bigger deal than Batman or Superman. Luke was last on screen in 1983, I wasn’t even born then! Why wouldn’t Tony Stark be a way bigger deal by an entire order of magnitude to this generation?
 

The Silver

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,829
When the heroic sacrifice of Luke Skywalker is completely overshadowed by fucking Tony Stark's

You know you fucked up

Kids should be talking about it like TLJ shows them doing it (lol). They aren't.
Well yeah that's easy to understand, to a kid Luke is just some bitter old man who doesn't want to teach Rey cool shit, his sacrifice doesn't mean much if you don't have the OT nostalgia. Where as with Stark kids are growing up with him. The shadow of the decades old OT looms large over the ST, shit we got Sheev coming back.
 

antonz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,076
Disney completely blotched handling the Sequels and that is not to say George had the right ideas either. Key elements are ok but the poorly executed them.

Episode 7 should have taken place in the same timespan but I would have had Luke with his Jedi Academy, Leia in the republic Government with Han struggling to find who he is supposed to be at his age etc. Have the Dark forces in the back cause the destruction of the Jedi Academy etc. while the First Order reveals itself lashing out against the Galaxy by the end of the movie. Have that Failure of Luke and the Republic etc. shown and developed. That way you can show how the Rebellion won and the Galaxy did sort of move on until those sinister forces in the shadows brings everything crashing down again. Then you can start introducing all the new characters to the Saga.

Disney was in such a rush to get their Next generation of Star Wars going they poorly handled the last generation.
 

UltraMagnus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,684
Some facts though:

1.) TFA domestically is easily still the no.1 movie, beating every MCU film.

2.) Of the 21 MCU movies only *three* (3/21) made appreciably more money than The Last Jedi and all three are Avengers films which are basically All-Star movies (something Star Wars can't really do unless they can somehow figure out how to put Qui-Gon, Darth Maul, Obi-Wan, Luke, Leia, Han, Lando, Chewie, Rey, Poe, Finn, BB8, R2, 3PO, Vader, Palpatine, Snoke, Kylo all into one movie).

3.) Rogue One made more money than more than half of the MCU films.

4.) Star Wars Battlefront, despite EA's best attempts to destroy/cripple the game IP before it even had a chance to get going still shipped 16 million copies.

5.) Toy sales for all toy lines, including Marvel are declining.

6.) Inflation adjusted even, the Disney sequel trilogy is going to make more money than the prequel trilogy. TFA beat TPM and the TLJ beat AOTC, likely Rise Of the Skywalker will also beat Revenge of the Sith even when you account for inflation. Which means Star Wars is more popular today than it was in the 2000s.

I mean the franchise is not perfect by any means, but a lot of the hysteria around it is also nonsensical. Just because something else is having success doesn't mean Star Wars is doing something wrong necessarily.

In the middle of OT run, E.T. came out of nowhere and became more popular than either of the original Star Wars sequels in the early 80s, and that has happened many other times to Star Wars.
 
Dec 12, 2017
6,783
Some facts though:

1.) TFA domestically is easily still the no.1 movie, beating every MCU film.

2.) Of the 21 MCU movies only *three* (3/21) made appreciably more money than The Last Jedi and all three are Avengers films which are basically All-Star movies (something Star Wars can't really do unless they can somehow figure out how to put Qui-Gon, Darth Maul, Obi-Wan, Luke, Leia, Han, Lando, Chewie, Rey, Poe, Finn, BB8, R2, 3PO, Vader, Palpatine, Snoke, Kylo all into one movie).

3.) Rogue One made more money than more than half of the MCU films.

4.) Star Wars Battlefront, despite EA's best attempts to destroy/cripple the game IP before it even had a chance to get going still shipped 16 million copies.

5.) Toy sales for all toy lines, including Marvel are declining.

6.) Inflation adjusted even, the Disney sequel trilogy is going to make more money than the prequel trilogy. TFA beat TPM and the TLJ beat AOTC, likely Rise Of the Skywalker will also beat Revenge of the Sith even when you account for inflation. Which means Star Wars is more popular today than it was in the 2000s.
7. Solo made $400 million WW.

Actually, that is not a fact. It didn't even make that much.
 
Dec 12, 2017
6,783
And? One flop in 40 years as a film property is not too shabby.

Lets see where Marvel is at in 15 years, let alone 30.
Let's see where SW is 23 films in. I guess we'll see after the forced 2 year hiatus that SW will be on after this year.

Imagine Marvel needing to release in ideal windows in December for success.

Imagine Marvel not being able to release multiple films per year. Could SW release 3 films that all hit $1 Billion EACH in a year?

Imagine Marvel getting pushed off the release slate for blue smurfs.

Imagine Marvel having a massive universe watered down to being focused on one dysfunctional family.

Imagine.
 

UltraMagnus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,684
Let's see where SW is 23 films in. I guess we'll see after the forced 2 year hiatus that SW will be on after this year.

Imagine Marvel needing to release in ideal windows in December for success.

Imagine Marvel not being able to release multiple films per year. Could SW release 3 films that all hit $1 Billion EACH in a year?

Imagine Marvel getting pushed off the release slate for blue smurfs.

Imagine Marvel having a massive universe watered down to being focused on one dysfunctional family.

Imagine.
lol, some nice hot takes there. Fact is Star Wars is doing amazing for a 40 year old franchise. ANH is as freaking old today to a 9 year old as Gone with the Wind would've been to kids when ANH first came out, lol. That's fucking old.

And the fact is inflation adjusted to even the scales the Disney sequel is going to out gross the prequel trilogy, meaning it is more popular today than it was in the 2000s.

What other property from the 70s/80s has that kind of power? Kids don't give a shit about E.T. or Ghostbusters or Indiana Jones but I get just as many kids every Halloween dressed as Kylo Ren or Rey or Darth Vader as I do any Marvel characters.

In 30 years odds are kids then will look at Endgame and say "turn this goofy shit off dad".
 

UltraMagnus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,684
And yet you couldn't refute a single thing I posted.

Cause they are all facts.
The context is stupid, it's not a contest.

Star Wars has been "beat" many freaking times before too, I know you think you're breaking news here, but if you actually grew up even with the OT was out you would know that that is nothing that special.

E.T. was a bigger deal than Empire or Jedi (not neccessarily a better film, but a bigger pop culture impact and box office impact). And that was right in the middle of the peak of the OT.

Jurassic Park owned the 90s, not Star Wars.

Titanic owned the late 90s specifically.

Harry Potter bested the prequels to kids easily.

It's not not some life or death competition, that's just dumb.