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Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,418
To say nothing of their demonstrably poor screenwriting capabilities, D&D should not have any place in a Disney/LucasFilms that have pledged diversification. I'm going to repost my cursory run-down of their history of misogyny, homophobia, and racism in writing Game of Thrones:

Homophobia:
  • Inserting violent homophobia into the Faith of the Seven where there is none on the books. In fact, Westerosi culture as a whole isn't particularly homophobic, except insofar as feudal primogeniture demands noble sons marry noble daughters. (Homosexual relationships are actually fine and accepted!)
  • Omitting most LGBT+ book characters, many of whom were meaningful or easy to include.
    • Not only were most homosexual men in the books as martially capable as their heterosexual counterparts, whether masculine or feminine, but Jon's squire Satin serves as a welcome example of Jon being indiscriminate (and, if you want to read into it, perhaps not heterosexual himself).
  • Turning the only included homosexual book characters — Renly and Loras — into one-dimensional stereotypical caricatures. In the books, they're both quite three-dimensional, in many ways ideals of Westerosi martialism and masculinity, and also one of the healthiest couples in the novels.
    • To further expand on that: Renly is a vaunted tournament participant, who looks identical to Robert in his youth, who was described as "muscled like a maiden's fancy."
      • In the show, he's a gay stereotype who's... afraid of blood. One of their introductory scenes is literally them shaving each other's bodies.
    • Loras in the books, meanwhile, is consistently compared to a youthful Jaime Lannister. He's one of the most talented swordsmen in the realm, with a rash temper. When Renly dies, he joins the Kingsguard — a celibate order — because "when the sun has set, no mere candle can replace it."
      • In the show, he's even more effete and effeminate than Renly. We almost never see him with a sword in-hand. He doesn't join the Kingsguard after Renly's death, and in fact starts whoring around immediately after. (Because gay people are promiscuous! Duh!)
        • In S3, he also discusses ~wedding planning~ with Sansa.
Racism:
  • Daenerys' infamous white savior crowd surfing on a crowd of 100% people of color.
    • In the books, slavery is more akin to the Roman variety, irrespective of skin color.
  • Going into none of the depth of the Meereenese politics.
  • Missandei's Shock Value death. Not only did only her being captured make no sense, but they had her — an ex-slave — symbolically put back in chains for her execution.
    • Relatedly, I can't wait to see how these chucklefucks handle Confedereate. That they want to tackle a scenario of "What If American Slavery Still Existed?" says a lot about them.
  • Tyrion inexplicably assuming the Unsullied soldiers didn't speak Common last night. When he's been around them for years now.
  • Turning the Sand Snakes into stereotypical exotic caricatures, when they were each racially diverse in the books, representative of Oberyn's equal opportunity sexual relations. (By the way, Book!Oberyn is bisexual too, but his brief allusion to it in the show is quickly cut off before anything happens between him and a male prostitute. In the show, he also assumes Varys is gay based on... I guess, stereotypes!)
  • Omitting various characters of color from the books.
    • Whitewashing some of their roles, such as turning Chataya and Alayaya into... Ros.
Misogyny:
  • Innumerable instances of gratuitous rape.
    • Including various scenes where the women being raped have their faces off-screen, removing their humanity.
  • Innumerable instances of dehumanizing sexposition aimed to titillate male audience members using Male Gaze, at the expense of female audience members.
  • The idea that "powerful women" are toxically masculinized violent women, or otherwise cynical ice queens. By extension, several female characters were more-or-less ruined, turned into opposites of their book counterparts:
    • Brienne, the soft-hearted, deeply empathetic, and chivalrous young woman was turned into someone who frequently bullied Podrick, and demonstrated disdain for femininity. In the books, she isn't disdainful of femininity at all — she's equal parts Lady of Tarth and a True Knight.
    • Sansa's strength in the books is not only her intelligence, but her resolute commitment to kindness and goodness in the face of cynicism. "If I am ever queen, I will make them love me." Instead of "learning from Cersei" (gross), Book!Sansa is an indictment of Cersei's internalized misogyny — a demonstration that Cersei is wrong, that kindness isn't stupid, that it wins.
    • Arya in the books envies Sansa's femininity, she doesn't condemn or mock it. She never calls girls or feminine pursuits "weak" or "stupid" as she does in the show. (She calls Sansa stupid in a bout of sisterly rivalry, but that's very different.) Let's look at a quote from the books:
      • "The Lannisters are proud," Jon observed. "You'd think the royal sigil would be sufficient, but no. He makes his mother's House equal in honor to the king's."

        "The woman is important too!" Arya protested.
  • The idea that women in proximity must behave bitchily toward one another. Last season it was Sansa and Arya catfighting, this season it's been Sansa and Daenerys.
  • The idea this season that Emotional Women must be rationalized/condescended to by Reasonable (read: stupid) Men.
    • See: the double standard applied to Daenerys and Jon Snow.
      • Show!Daenerys has never actually demonstrated much propensity for madness (let's forget that the actual Mad King's descent into insanity took many years with sometimes justified paranoia). She has years of actual ruling experience. Yet, characters like Varys and Tyrion warp their prior characterization (remember Varys' "Fire and Blood" declaration to Olenna?) to insist she's crazy — when her last action was to put aside her southerly war and go North to save the realm.
      • Show!Jon, meanwhile, has demonstrated nothing but stupidity lately (don't get me started on the show's thesis that Good/Honor = Stupid — complete opposite of the books), yet Varys immediately decides he's a better ruler than Daenerys, literally because he has a penis.
    • See: Tyrion inexplicably appealing to Cersei's motherly emotions when we — and Tyrion — have seen ad nauseam by now that Cersei is insane and consumed by power.
  • After having the Hound make a gross comment to Sansa referring to her rape as being "broken in," the show has Sansa literally say she wouldn't be where she is now without her abuses/abusers.
    • For the people in the back: RAPE AND ABUSE ARE NOT EMPOWERING. ABUSERS DO NOT GET CREDIT FOR INSTILLING STRENGTH IN THEIR VICTIMS. SANSA DID NOT GLEAN STRENGTH OR POLITICAL CANNINESS FROM HER ABUSES — SHE ALREADY HAD THEM.
 

Holundrian

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,114

Meows

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,399
Don't forget the disastrous production of Rogue One or the hiring and subsequent firings of Colin Trevorrow and Josh Trank.
Yeah, granted she had reason to fire those people but that is basically her track record. She was lucky that Abrams and Johnson released their movies so quickly and without issue. I've been defending her for years (and still will) but so many of her choices since head of LucasFilm don't look good.
 

El Bombastico

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
36,006
Don't forget the disastrous production of Rogue One or the hiring and subsequent firings of Colin Trevorrow and Josh Trank.

Yeah, Star Wars as a whole has been kinda a clusterfuck under her watch. It seems they're learning their lessons in terms of not overwhelming people with movies. But D&D are NOT a good fit for Star Wars, and I say that as someone who still enjoyed the last few episodes of GoT.

I've also noticed something else: Why is Iger making these announcements and not KK? For the MCU, head of the studio Kevin Feige is always front and center. But lately it seems that Iger has been the one making all the announcements for Star Wars, not KK the actual head of Lucasfilm...
 

Ryan.

Prophet of Truth
The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
12,874
I've also noticed something else: Why is Iger making these announcements and not KK? For the MCU, head of the studio Kevin Feige is always front and center. But lately it seems that Iger has been the one making all the announcements for Star Wars, not KK the actual head of Lucasfilm...

Because these are Disney investor calls and summits and not necessarily official announcements.

Plus different studios, different ways to do things.
 

Freezasaurus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,942
giphy.gif
 

Quinton

Specialist at TheGamer / Reviewer at RPG Site
Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,244
Midgar, With Love
Honestly though, what will it take for y'all to be kosher with future Star Wars movies at this point? Because I keep thinking about it and the one thing I circle back to is "BREAKING: Russo Brothers To Helm Next Trilogy."
 

Korigama

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,470
Honestly though, what will it take for y'all to be kosher with future Star Wars movies at this point? Because I keep thinking about it and the one thing I circle back to is "BREAKING: Russo Brothers To Helm Next Trilogy."
I quite enjoyed TLJ, so Rian Johnson's trilogy happening instead of D&D touching SW would've been fine by me.
 

mutantmagnet

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,401
Eh, FMA '03 still had plenty of questionable creative decisions, up to and including something that wouldn't have been out of place for D&D with
supporting character Rose having been raped and impregnated by State Military soldiers and left a mute, something that never happened in the manga or by extension Brotherhood.

But it wasn't terrible or out of place considering that they leaned heavily on the horrors of warfare and supposedly benevolent societies engaging in it.

Brotherhood was sanitary in comparison to that. The destruction of the Drachma forces in the north was basically a punchline.
 

El Bombastico

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
36,006
Honestly though, what will it take for y'all to be kosher with future Star Wars movies at this point? Because I keep thinking about it and the one thing I circle back to is "BREAKING: Russo Brothers To Helm Next Trilogy."

I'd like Disney to take at LEAST 5, preferably 10 years off from releasing any theatrical films. Then when that time is over, announce some sort of grand plan for the franchise with someone like Feige (or hell, even Feige himself if he wants the job) overseeing over it.

A director driven shared universe franchise does not work. WB learned that the hard way with the DCEU. I don't care who the directors are, I want the next set of Star Wars films to have a unified and consistent vision, something sorely lacking right now.

But alas, just a pipe dream. No way would Disney go longer than 3 years without a film...
 

Jexhius

Community Resetter
Member
Oct 25, 2017
965
I'm really looking forward to seeing the smart writing that these two lads can come up with when freed from the restrains of having to adapt a lengthy book series.
 

Quinton

Specialist at TheGamer / Reviewer at RPG Site
Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,244
Midgar, With Love
I'd like Disney to take at LEAST 5, preferably 10 years off from releasing any theatrical films. Then when that time is over, announce some sort of grand plan for the franchise with someone like Feige (or hell, even Feige himself if he wants the job) overseeing over it.

A director driven shared universe franchise does not work. WB learned that the hard way with the MCU. I don't care who the directors are, I want the next set of Star Wars films to have a unified and consistent vision, something sorely lacking right now.

But alas, just a pipe dream. No way would Disney go longer than 3 years without a film...

May I ask you what makes Star Wars in particular something which fans want a decade to pass without films when so many other popcorn blockbuster franchises are full of fans wanting more and more, faster and faster? This is kind of the crux of my confusion. I get wanting Lucasfilm to iron out a Feige-like grand plan but I don't understand how that equates to a desire for a literal decade to pass us by without further theatrical content.

It just bugs the hell out of me because in terms of the giants of entertainment Star Wars is the only one I scream enthusiastically about.
 

SELIG

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
2,011
edit: done venting .. not thrilled by this news but theres lots of other star wars content coming before whatever this ends up being, and it may end up being good.
 
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Halbrand

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,612
May I ask you what makes Star Wars in particular something which fans want a decade to pass without films when so many other popcorn blockbuster franchises are full of fans wanting more and more, faster and faster? This is kind of the crux of my confusion. I get wanting Lucasfilm to iron out a Feige-like grand plan but I don't understand how that equates to a desire for a literal decade to pass us by without further theatrical content.

It just bugs the hell out of me because in terms of the giants of entertainment Star Wars is the only one I scream enthusiastically about.
Yeah, it's bizarre to me
 

Yankee Ruin X

Member
Oct 31, 2017
2,682
Just a reminder if you think people are just salty about their writing in GoT, D&D also wrote Wolverine Origins and brought us that version of Deadpool.
 

TheDinoman

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,092
Honestly though, what will it take for y'all to be kosher with future Star Wars movies at this point? Because I keep thinking about it and the one thing I circle back to is "BREAKING: Russo Brothers To Helm Next Trilogy."

Honestly, my wish is just to see "BREAKING: Disney to cancel further development on Star Wars movies".

Yeah, I know that's literally never ever going to happen. But honestly I just wish Star Wars remained this classic series of films from the 70s/80s, much like the Back to the Future trilogy, instead of transforming into this neverending multimedia nightmare with an extremely limited universe.
 

El Bombastico

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
36,006
May I ask you what makes Star Wars in particular something which fans want a decade to pass without films when so many other popcorn blockbuster franchises are full of fans wanting more and more, faster and faster? This is kind of the crux of my confusion. I get wanting Lucasfilm to iron out a Feige-like grand plan but I don't understand how that equates to a desire for a literal decade to pass us by without further theatrical content.

It just bugs the hell out of me because in terms of the giants of entertainment Star Wars is the only one I scream enthusiastically about.

Because Star Wars is NOT the MCU. It just isn't designed to be churning out one film after the other every year. We don't need countless spinoffs and prequels and sequels and side stories. We don't need every mystery explained or every background character fleshed out in detail. That was the biggest problem with the old EU: It left NOTHING to the imagination. Every single side character or event was given its own novel or comic. Nothing was left unexplored, and the universe just became so...dull by the end.
 

VonGreckler

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,284
My ultimate dream is "BREAKING: Christopher Nolan To Helm Next Star WarsTrilogy."
I'd like Disney to take at LEAST 5, preferably 10 years off from releasing any theatrical films. Then when that time is over, announce some sort of grand plan for the franchise with someone like Feige (or hell, even Feige himself if he wants the job) overseeing over it.

A director driven shared universe franchise does not work. WB learned that the hard way with the DCEU. I don't care who the directors are, I want the next set of Star Wars films to have a unified and consistent vision, something sorely lacking right now.

But alas, just a pipe dream. No way would Disney go longer than 3 years without a film...
Honestly, my wish is just to see "BREAKING: Disney to cancel further development on Star Wars movies".

Yeah, I know that's literally never ever going to happen. But honestly I just wish Star Wars remained this classic series of films from the 70s/80s, much like the Back to the Future trilogy, instead of transforming into this neverending multimedia nightmare with an extremely limited universe.

I for one, am glad that none of these are happening...
 

Korigama

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,470
But it wasn't terrible or out of place considering that they leaned heavily on the horrors of warfare and supposedly benevolent societies engaging in it.

Brotherhood was sanitary in comparison to that. The destruction of the Drachma forces in the north was basically a punchline.
Pretty sure there's no arguing that as anything other than terrible, even if you're insisting that it fit the tone for their vision of the story. And I'd hardly call the look back to what happened to the Ishvalans more "sanitary" in Brotherhood than '03, if I were to pick just one example (but just about anything will look "sanitary" next to '03's grimdark sensibilities).

Personally, I consider Dante the only thing of value lost from '03 (well, that and Rose's darker complexion).
 
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Novel

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,933

Quinton

Specialist at TheGamer / Reviewer at RPG Site
Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,244
Midgar, With Love
Honestly, my wish is just to see "BREAKING: Disney to cancel further development on Star Wars movies".

Yeah, I know that's literally never ever going to happen. But honestly I just wish Star Wars remained this classic series of films from the 70s/80s, much like the Back to the Future trilogy, instead of transforming into this neverending multimedia nightmare with an extremely limited universe.
Because Star Wars is NOT the MCU. It just isn't designed to be churning out one film after the other every year. We don't need countless spinoffs and prequels and sequels and side stories. We don't need every mystery explained or every background character fleshed out in detail. That was the biggest problem with the old EU: It left NOTHING to the imagination. Every single side character or event was given its own novel or comic. Nothing was left unexplored, and the universe just became so...dull by the end.

I really, really disagree with the both of you. Maybe if there was another extraordinary and decent-setting space opera franchise with Star Wars' blockbuster appeal I wouldn't care as much. But there isn't. (I love Star Trek but it's simply never going to herald that sort of mainstream appeal and I've come to terms with that.)

I live in a world where the comic book superhero adoration phenomenon gets stronger by the year. That's fine. I'm not bitter that people like what they like and get more of it. I'm bewildered that Star Wars is somehow this special entity in people's minds to the point that the risk of tarnishing it far outweighs the reward of possibly getting more and more excellence instead.
 

Deleted member 8593

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
27,176
Didn't expect this news to bum me out this much. It took me almost a year to watch Solo and I think the same is going to happen with these films. I want more unique voices in the Star Wars universe and I don't think D&D are all that interesting.
 

Randdalf

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,167
I think it will be fine if they get to plot it from start to finish. With GoT they had the incredibly tough job of coming up with a satisfying ending for someone else's story.
 

Seeya

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,984
Because Star Wars is NOT the MCU. It just isn't designed to be churning out one film after the other every year. We don't need countless spinoffs and prequels and sequels and side stories. We don't need every mystery explained or every background character fleshed out in detail. That was the biggest problem with the old EU: It left NOTHING to the imagination. Every single side character or event was given its own novel or comic. Nothing was left unexplored, and the universe just became so...dull by the end.

The way the EU succeeded though was that by covering many different mediums and topics, only the most devoted noticed that. Much of the EU was simply take it as a person happened to choose to engage with it.

It doesn't work for mediums like film and TV because of exposure. Even if you're not watching the latest movie, a 200 million dollar marketing budget will make sure you're saturated by StarWars marketing.
 

DixieDean82

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
11,837
A three break is just the right length needed. Taking ten years off is completely unrealistic.

Just be grateful the Disney overloads are not turning into the MCU. Three movies a year, would kill my love of the franchise. The MCU is too relentless for my tastes.

If it took Solo's failure to make this to happen, then I'm glad it flopped.

Oh, and there is nothing limited about the Star Wars universe. Nothing at all. With the right world building, this is a non-issue. You can literally make an entertaining movie out of anything.
 

Rivenblade

Member
Nov 1, 2017
37,114
I'm curious and will check out whatever these films end up becoming. Can't wait for the teaser in three years!

I'm mostly curious what this means for Rian Johnson's SW involvement.
 

Einchy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
42,659
Honestly, my wish is just to see "BREAKING: Disney to cancel further development on Star Wars movies".

Yeah, I know that's literally never ever going to happen. But honestly I just wish Star Wars remained this classic series of films from the 70s/80s, much like the Back to the Future trilogy, instead of transforming into this neverending multimedia nightmare with an extremely limited universe.
You hoping something ceases to exist just because you don't want to see it is so incredibly self-centered. Just stop watching them, it's that simple.
 

Narroo

Banned
Feb 27, 2018
1,819
This is accurate.

And I'm anticipating the Rian Johnson trilogy.
As much as this is supposed to be a joke, there are some legitimate gripes there. Vader's flip was not too well foreshadowed, if I recall correctly. Really though: Teddy Bear Things If this joke was being honest, there would be people complaining about the Bear Things, and they'd be on-point.