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Boxing | OT | - Making the count

BadAss2961

BadAss2961

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,069
Cow said:
I have literally sourced you Luis Ortiz's manager saying it was his side that dropped the ball and it was Ortiz's promoter that messed up talks by trying to get more than $7 million. This is a FACT. This is not a debate here. This is a fact that you need to accept. Hearn offered Luis Ortiz $7 million and was denied. THIS IS A FACT. FACT. Accept it and move on. Your argument is based on your own biases rather than facts. You are again falling into another narrative that whatever Hearn says is wrong. It's clouding your judgement. Ortiz's team knew they had the Wilder fight to fall back on so did not take the negotiations seriously enough and tried to get mad money.
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You're still not getting it... For the last time, I don't dispute that Hearn verbally gave them an offer, i'm arguing he never intended to make it official. After all, they were in negotiations with a number of other fighters. It was also Ortiz that called them... They didn't need a high risk, low reward fight with him though.

Ortiz's camp played the game and angled for more money, realized it wasn't going to happen, then publicly tried to go back to an original offer that to no surprise was no longer there. Ortiz's manager coming out and blaming the promoter all happened while Hearn was still looking for Joshua's opponent. In other words, they were practically begging for a seat back at the table... In that very same interview you reference, Ortiz's camp says they'll accept if Hearn sends them a contract in writing, which of course doesn't happen. Fight goes to Ruiz days later.

I'm reading between the lines based on everything i've seen from Joshua's camp... Hearn played them. Got the type of man they wanted... Didn't work out though.
 
Cow

Cow

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,625
I am just blown away lol. Hearn offered them, they denied and it is Hearn's fault because he moved on to fighters who were not messing about. The mental gymnastics you are going to to make it all Hearn's fault is laughable.

You are also heavily underating Ruiz. Ruiz has always been a good fighter. He was very nearly world champion 2 years ago. He argubally won that title fight. Hearn could have got Charr but chose Ruiz knowing Ruiz could fight. Ruiz was never considered a pushover. He has always been considered world level. Even before this fight, a Ruiz win on Wilder or Fury's record would be their second best win based on what we knew of him. Stop trivialising Ruiz' whole career by suggesting Hearn got him in to get destroyed. He obviously thought AJ was going to win, but he did know it was going to take rounds to get Ruiz out. We have always known Ruiz is one of the harder fighters to stop at that level.
 
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DeadJoshWalking

DeadJoshWalking

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,430
More I think about this fight the more I realise I'm actually really happy for Andy Ruiz, so many top fighters get written off because they aren't marketable for whatever reason, this guy has done his graft, got his chance, and shown the world (again) that there's a lot more to Boxing than looking great and selling Lucozade.

So glad it was Ruiz and not Big Baby, it's hard to say looking at it now that AJ would have beaten him either in this form.

AJ has had the same weaknesses since Whyte beat him as an amateur and never corrected them, everyone goes on about how great his coaches are but I just don't see it. The one fight I can remember where he really did look like he'd picked something and learned was against Parker, but it seems like he took exception to the reaction to that fight and decided he could beat everyone the same way he did coming up, but the only way that works is if you run your career like Wilder and only fight perfect opponents you are going to easily floor. If he want's to fight the best he can't fight stupid, and if his coaches can't get that into his head then he needs new coaches.


I still think AJ can win the belts back in a rematch, but he's going to have to go back to boxing smart and stop buying into Hearn's hype.
 
Boy Wander

Boy Wander

Alt Account
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,126
UK
BadAss2961 said:
I told you about a dozen times already that Hearn was never going to let Ortiz in the ring with Joshua. That no offer was going to be made in good faith. I've suggested that here before, and only you and some other guy that disappeared since Joshua's upset really had a problem seeing why someone would believe that.

The belts are nothing more than a marketing tool. Everyone knows who the top dogs are, but most couldn't tell you who holds what.

Wilder/Ortiz is interesting because it's a fight Wilder can lose. I think he'll win, probably quicker this time, but it wouldn't be a shocker to see Ortiz beat him. Ortiz almost had him last time and was probably up on points until the last round.
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You're talking nonsense. An exploratory offer was made and turned down. Ortiz' manager even admitted as much.
 
BadAss2961

BadAss2961

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,069
Cow said:
I am just blown away lol. Hearn offered them, they denied and it is Hearn's fault because he moved on to fighters who were not messing about. The mental gymnastics you are going to to make it all Hearn's fault is laughable.

You are also heavily underating Ruiz. Ruiz has always been a good fighter. He was very nearly world champion 2 years ago. He argubally won that title fight. Hearn could have got Charr but chose Ruiz knowing Ruiz could fight. Ruiz was never considered a pushover. He has always been considered world level. Even before this fight, a Ruiz win on Wilder or Fury's record would be their second best win based on what we knew of him. Stop trivialising Ruiz' whole career by suggesting Hearn got him in to get destroyed. He obviously thought AJ was going to win, but he did know it was going to take rounds to get Ruiz out. We have always known Ruiz is one of the harder fighters to stop at that level.
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On an elite level, Ruiz is a game opponent, that's about it. Just another guy... I'm aware of the extensive amateur background and all that, but I wasn't impressed at all by what I saw from him. I don't think anyone came away from that fight thinking wow, this guy could give Wilder or Fury a run for their money. The talk has been about Joshua and how awful he looked. How easily he was beaten. And they're absolutely right.

AJ's fans are searching for answers on wtf happened, that he must've had a bad camp or something. Even i'm inclined to wonder instead of just giving credit to Ruiz.

I'm not buying anything that's suddenly selling Ruiz in an attempt to make this loss not look so bad. He was there to make Joshua look good in his US debut, just as Miller was. AJ had no business losing that fight.

If you're gonna go back to the 'top 3 is all that matters to you' argument, i've been propping up Ortiz this whole time as the real deal. The heavyweight division is as exciting as it's been in a very long time, but it's still top heavy. Ortiz is the one fighter outside the big names I believe has a good chance against anybody.
 
Turin

Turin

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,462
Rooting for Ruiz but I kind of expect Joshua to stick more behind the jab for a decision win.
 
Cow

Cow

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,625
There's a good chance Hearn gets it in the UK with a ref that will not let Ruiz engage on the inside. Couple that with some dodgy scorecards and AJ should get the win.

Because based on what we saw the other day, it really is hard to imagine AJ winning a fair fight with Ruiz.
 

rjpageuk

Member
Jul 22, 2018
1
Cow said:
There's a good chance Hearn gets it in the UK with a ref that will not let Ruiz engage on the inside. Couple that with some dodgy scorecards and AJ should get the win.

Because based on what we saw the other day, it really is hard to imagine AJ winning a fair fight with Ruiz.
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Firstly, Joshua won the first two rounds on every judge's scorecard and knocked Ruiz down in the third. He was heading for victory at that point - he tried to finish Ruiz too soon, took too many risks, got caught and never recovered. Obviously you can question his chin, his decision making or whatever but to conclude he cant win a fair fight with Ruiz is just ridiculous.

Secondly, the insinuation that bringing him to the UK to get some "dodgy scorecards" is a bit unfair. Name a recent major fight in the UK where the scorecards have been dodgy? The reason why Hearn will want the fight in the UK is because Joshua has a history of performing well in the UK and didnt in the US, so obviously it makes sense to try to do it in the UK, especially given the fact he will have no issue filling a major stadium.
 
DeadJoshWalking

DeadJoshWalking

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,430
It's crazy to suggest AJ can't win a rematch, he could have easily won this fight if he'd been smarter after knocking Ruiz down.
 
Cow

Cow

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,625
rjpageuk said:
Firstly, Joshua won the first two rounds on every judge's scorecard and knocked Ruiz down in the third. He was heading for victory at that point - he tried to finish Ruiz too soon, took too many risks, got caught and never recovered. Obviously you can question his chin, his decision making or whatever but to conclude he cant win a fair fight with Ruiz is just ridiculous.

Secondly, the insinuation that bringing him to the UK to get some "dodgy scorecards" is a bit unfair. Name a recent major fight in the UK where the scorecards have been dodgy? The reason why Hearn will want the fight in the UK is because Joshua has a history of performing well in the UK and didnt in the US, so obviously it makes sense to try to do it in the UK, especially given the fact he will have no issue filling a major stadium.
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Thought you lot disappeared when your mans lost. I appreciate you staying loyal after he embarrassed himself, exposed his chin, his heart and quit.

As far as AJ being up on the scorecards after the first two, it's rather irrelevant. Early rounds usually do go to the champion in big fights due to both fighters trying to find their rhythm and doing nothing. Nothing happened in the first rounds except for Ruiz backing AJ up. If Ruiz was the A side, he would be given those rounds.

As far as dodgy scorecards in recent UK fights, there haven't been any high profile UK fights recently. We can talk about Katie Taylor's robbery win from the other night though.

Ruiz's style is not for AJ. He is too quick constantly applies pressure to get on the inside. AJ cannot trade with Ruiz who will be pressuring him all night long. I am also unsure if AJ can KO Ruiz from what I saw the other night. Ruiz had an answer for everything and was doing more damage out of the two in almost every exchange. You then also have the fact that Ruiz has the stamina of a fat Mexican god whilst AJ is having fits after a couple of rounds of pressure, and you have a problem. Big problem for AJ and I am very doubtful he can win the rematch without some help. He is going to need to be allowed to get away with some very poor and illegal tactics to get a win. it's a 50/50 fight in the UK. Ruiz wins elsewhere most likely.


I know, it is shocking. I did not pick Ruiz to win the first fight and did think AJ would get the KO around 7th or 8th. But seeing how AJ dealt with Ruiz has completely changed my view. He never looked good. The knockdown was the only time he looked good and Ruiz answered back immediately and knocked him down. It really is shocking. I am shook, but AJ's career ends this year unless he can get some help in the UK. Which he will. The fight will happen in the UK. At that point it is 50/50 and I cannot pick a winner.
 
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Stalwart

Banned
Feb 4, 2018
1,665
Cow said:
Thought you lot disappeared when your mans lost. I appreciate you staying loyal after he embarrassed himself, exposed his chin, his heart and quit.

As far as AJ being up on the scorecards after the first two, it's rather irrelevant. Early rounds usually do go to the champion in big fights due to both fighters trying to find their rhythm and doing nothing. Nothing happened in the first rounds except for Ruiz backing AJ up. If Ruiz was the A side, he would be given those rounds.

As far as dodgy scorecards in recent UK fights, there haven't been any high profile UK fights recently. We can talk about Katie Taylor's robbery win from the other night though.

Ruiz's style is not for AJ. He is too quick constantly applies pressure to get on the inside. AJ cannot trade with Ruiz who will be pressuring him all night long. I am also unsure if AJ can KO Ruiz from what I saw the other night. Ruiz had an answer for everything and was doing more damage out of the two in almost every exchange. You then also have the fact that Ruiz has the stamina of a fat Mexican god whilst AJ is having fits after a couple of rounds of pressure, and you have a problem. Big problem for AJ and I am very doubtful he can win the rematch without some help. He is going to need to be allowed to get away with some very poor and illegal tactics to get a win. it's a 50/50 fight in the UK. Ruiz wins elsewhere most likely.


I know, it is shocking. I did not pick Ruiz to win the first fight and did think AJ would get the KO around 7th or 8th. But seeing how AJ dealt with Ruiz has completely changed my view. He never looked good. The knockdown was the only time he looked good and Ruiz answered back immediately and knocked him down. It really is shocking. I am shook, but AJ's career ends this year unless he can get some help in the UK. Which he will. The fight will happen in the UK. At that point it is 50/50 and I cannot pick a winner.
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AJ will win, lets bet.
 
Chikor

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
Cow said:
There is a good chance he will because the fight will be in the UK and the ref will not let Ruiz engage.
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Are people assuming that Cardiff is a done deal for the venue?
I'm honestly asking, I have no idea.

I think they're crazy to not do it in CDMX, but what do I know.
 
Wamapoke

Wamapoke

Member
Apr 11, 2018
2,726
It would be an embarrassing backtrack on his attempted US breakthrough if AJ went back to safe territory for the rematch.

If he can't do it in US/Mexico, don't bother pretending he wants Fury or Wilder afterwards.
 
BadAss2961

BadAss2961

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,069
Wamapoke said:
It would be an embarrassing backtrack on his attempted US breakthrough if AJ went back to safe territory for the rematch.

If he can't do it in US/Mexico, don't bother pretending he wants Fury or Wilder afterwards.
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I agree that it would be best for AJ's confidence and reputation to recreate the circumstances in which he lost, then go out and dominate Ruiz. I'm just about positive they're going back to the UK though.

Whenever it comes to Joshua, expect things to be played safe.
 
Cow

Cow

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,625
Chikor said:
Are people assuming that Cardiff is a done deal for the venue?
I'm honestly asking, I have no idea.

I think they're crazy to not do it in CDMX, but what do I know.
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Hearn/AJ have the final say on location. It will almost definitely be in the UK unless DAZN or Ruiz's team put up the money. It would take Ruiz' team to put up the money and AJ will have to agree with it, losing the home advantage in the process. It makes more money in the UK, so a network in the US will have to most likely take a financial loss to get the fight if they can convince AJ.

The chances of it happening in Mexico are very slim. Chances of the US are better, but it will most likely be happening in the UK.


Stalwart said:
Odds are high, he wasn't smart trying to finish it early after that knockdown. Didn't use his reach advantage either.
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You think the odds of AJ winning are high? Are you high? Did you watch the fight properly? AJ has no answers for Ruiz.

BadAss2961 said:
Whenever it comes to Joshua, expect things to be played safe.
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Here we go....

AJ's career has not been played safe. Stop with this nonsense. The rematch will be played safe of course, but AJ as a boxer has taken many risks. You seem to think AJ and Hearn have been ducking and avoiding fights. NONSENSE. AJ and Hearn fully believed he was the best heavyweight. They fully believed he would beat Wilder. They fully believed he would beat Fury. The confidence AJ had in himself was high. The confidence Hearn has in AJ was high. Very high.

If AJ's career has been safe, what the fuck is Wilder's? Man took almost 40 fights to step up to elite level.
 
BadAss2961

BadAss2961

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,069
Cow said:
Here we go....

AJ's career has not been played safe. Stop with this nonsense. The rematch will be played safe of course, but AJ as a boxer has taken many risks. You seem to think AJ and Hearn have been ducking and avoiding fights. NONSENSE. AJ and Hearn fully believed he was the best heavyweight. They fully believed he would beat Wilder. They fully believed he would beat Fury. The confidence AJ had in himself was high. The confidence Hearn has in AJ was high. Very high.

If AJ's career has been safe, what the fuck is Wilder's? Man took almost 40 fights to step up to elite level.
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And now Wilder is taking the very best fights in the division, a second time. There's really no questioning him at this point.

You yourself believe that Joshua's people are all but going to fix the rematch with Ruiz. Even i'm not ready to go quite that far. I don't get how you'd go there yet take offense to me saying that Joshua's been playing it safe. Clearly part of you sees what i'm seeing. If not, there'd be no reason to think they'd be THAT scared of Ruiz. Careful sure, but you're talking scared.
 
Cow

Cow

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,625
BadAss2961 said:
And now Wilder is taking the very best fights in the division, a second time. There's really no questioning him at this point.

You yourself believe that Joshua's people are all but going to fix the rematch with Ruiz. Even i'm not ready to go quite that far. I don't get how you'd go there yet take offense to me saying that Joshua's been playing it safe. Clearly part of you sees what i'm seeing. If not, there'd be no reason to think they'd be THAT scared of Ruiz. Careful sure, but you're talking scared.
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You know who Wilder was fighting when he was at AJ's point? Journeymen. Literally. He didn't want to fight Wlad at that point and was fighting journeymen still. He was literally fighting journeymen. Not gatekeepers that people call journeymen. We're talking actual journeymen. Journeymen!! Now compare that to who AJ has fought. Then we can talk about Fury, he wasn't fighting the level of opposition of AJ at that point in his career either. But to be fair, he was struggling for fights back then.

If AJ has been protected, show me an example of a high profile heavyweight that has not been protected. It doesn't even have to be a heavyweight. Give me one from this era. Maybe Usyk? Loma? Give me one that fought as good opposition as AJ 23 fights in. Probably just Usyk and Loma? Both of those had extensive amateur careers that AJ never had. I want to see what you consider to not be a protected fighter. You certainly cannot give me an example of a heavyweight with a record even close to as good as AJ's just 23 fights in. If you cannot (and you cannot) give me an example, what makes AJ protected? He stepped up far quicker than any of his main rivals.

Fighting Miller for a debut where he has to look good is not what a protected fighter does. Asking for Ortiz on 5 weeks notice is not what a protected fighter does. Getting Ruiz on 5 weeks notice is not what a protected fighter does. AJ had to look good for his debut and he still chose tough opponents that he had very little chance of looking amazing against. He was never going to knock Miller, Ortiz or Ruiz out in a couple of rounds. He knew that. It was always going to be a mid to late round type of fight, and he chose to go with those tough fights for a debut in which he absolutely had to look good. You know what it an easy fight? That bum Fury is fighting.


I believe Hearn is very scared of Ruiz now. I believe we have reached a point where AJ has been exposed and Hearn can now see his cash cow is very vulnerable. He knows his chin is shocking and it would not surprise me if he no longer wants AJ to take the Wilder fight next year. I believe that for the first time, Hearn now knows Wilder will beat AJ. He probably feels the same about Ruiz too. This is all new to Hearn. He did believe AJ was the very best and I have absolutely no doubt about that.
 
BadAss2961

BadAss2961

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,069
Cow said:
You know who Wilder was fighting when he was at AJ's point? Journeymen. Literally. He didn't want to fight Wlad at that point and was fighting journeymen still. He was literally fighting journeymen. Not gatekeepers that people call journeymen. We're talking actual journeymen. Journeymen!! Now compare that to who AJ has fought. Then we can talk about Fury, he wasn't fighting the level of opposition of AJ at that point in his career either. But to be fair, he was struggling for fights back then.

If AJ has been protected, show me an example of a high profile heavyweight that has not been protected. It doesn't even have to be a heavyweight. Give me one from this era. Maybe Usyk? Loma? Give me one that fought as good opposition as AJ 23 fights in. Probably just Usyk and Loma? Both of those had extensive amateur careers that AJ never had. I want to see what you consider to not be a protected fighter. You certainly cannot give me an example of a heavyweight with a record even close to as good as AJ's just 23 fights in. If you cannot (and you cannot) give me an example, what makes AJ protected? He stepped up far quicker than any of his main rivals.

Fighting Miller for a debut where he has to look good is not what a protected fighter does. Asking for Ortiz on 5 weeks notice is not what a protected fighter does. Getting Ruiz on 5 weeks notice is not what a protected fighter does. AJ had to look good for his debut and he still chose tough opponents that he had very little chance of looking amazing against. He was never going to knock Miller, Ortiz or Ruiz out in a couple of rounds. He knew that. It was always going to be a mid to late round type of fight, and he chose to go with those tough fights for a debut in which he absolutely had to look good. You know what it an easy fight? That bum Fury is fighting.

I believe Hearn is very scared of Ruiz now. I believe we have reached a point where AJ has been exposed and Hearn can now see his cash cow is very vulnerable. He knows his chin is shocking and it would not surprise me if he no longer wants AJ to take the Wilder fight next year. I believe that for the first time, Hearn now knows Wilder will beat AJ. He probably feels the same about Ruiz too. This is all new to Hearn. He did believe AJ was the very best and I have absolutely no doubt about that.
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To be frank, there comes a point where fights against 2nd class heavyweights don't move the needle for me. The elites are expected to beat the Parkers, Povetkins, Whytes, and Breazeale's etc. of the world. They're quality wins, but not threats. Gatekeepers to the throne. Beating them in devastating fashion is definitely a plus though (Wilder over Breazeale.)

My problem with Joshua is that he should've fought at least one of Wilder, Fury, or Ortiz by now. Instead he's fought nothing but 2nd class fighters since Wlad, despite being the biggest draw in the division. The media constantly hounds Joshua on these fighters, and still nothing.

On Fury, I was in the same boat as you up until the point that he fought Wilder. He's usually fighting tomato cans, and I thought Wilder was going to expose him, but he made me a believer when they fought. He took the challenge i've yet to see AJ take, and was impressive. In one fight, he showed me more than Joshua had over his entire career. AJ needs to fight these guys, plain and simple.

I give more Hearn more credit than that. If I could see Joshua's vulnerableness, I bet Hearn saw them too, and kept him the hell away from Wilder and Ortiz. I would've done the same thing if I was him.
 
Cow

Cow

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,625
BadAss2961 said:
To be frank, there comes a point where fights against 2nd class heavyweights don't move the needle for me. The elites are expected to beat the Parkers, Povetkins, Whytes, and Breazeale's etc. of the world. They're quality wins, but not threats. Gatekeepers to the throne. Beating them in devastating fashion is definitely a plus though (Wilder over Breazeale.)

My problem with Joshua is that he should've fought at least one of Wilder, Fury, or Ortiz by now. Instead he's fought nothing but 2nd class fighters since Wlad, despite being the biggest draw in the division. The media constantly hounds Joshua on these fighters, and still nothing.

On Fury, I was in the same boat as you up until the point that he fought Wilder. He's usually fighting tomato cans, and I thought Wilder was going to expose him, but he made me a believer when they fought. He took the challenge i've yet to see AJ take, and was impressive. In one fight, he showed me more than Joshua had over his entire career. AJ needs to fight these guys, plain and simple.

I give more Hearn more credit than that. If I could see Joshua's vulnerableness, I bet Hearn saw them too, and kept him the hell away from Wilder and Ortiz. I would've done the same thing if I was him.
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Let's go through AJ's career:

He stepped up in Dec 2015 against Whyte. This is really when his career started.

In like April 2016 he bought the belt from Charles Martin.

3 months later he fought a tune up fight in Breazeale because he was looking towards Wlad as Fury was looking at pulling out of the rematch.

In Dec 2016he fought Molina. This should have been Wlad but Wlad pulled out due to injury.

He fought Wlad in April 2017 and got another belt and the IBO.

He was then forced into a mandatory at this point. No choice. It was Pulev but he pulled out and Takam was brought in. This is also an interesting point because Ortiz was alsobcalled for mandatory for AJ. Ortiz did not take this fight and chose to fight Wilder instead. If Ortiz wanted, he could have fought AJ after Takam. It would have been that fight instead of Parker.

AJ then unified with Parker in March 2018.

After this point and this point only is when he could have fought Wilder. Before this point was not possible at all. I explained this to you before. All other fights before this were title fights, huge risks, mandatories and unifications. He did offer some poor offers to Wilder that in hindsight look ridiculous. He then fought a mandatory in Povetkin, which had to happen. Then he got Miller and tried to fight Ortiz, which you do not believe regardless of the facts presented.

Where during his career has he been protected?

Also, Breazeale is not close to the level of a Parker, Pov or Whyte btw.
 
Syder

Syder

The Moyes are Back in Town
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
12,543
Can't wait for the totally not vomit-inducing build-up to

AJ'S REDEMPTION AT WEMBLEY! ONLY 19.99, ONLY ON SKY SPORTS BOX OFFICE!
 
ChrisR

ChrisR

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,798
HOLY SHIT what a knockout on ESPN+

edit: holy shit in the sense that dude was seriously out, even if the hit didn't seem to land that hard
 
BadAss2961

BadAss2961

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,069
Looks like GGG's still got it.

Crazy thing about him is I don't ever remember seeing him hurt. Takes a lot of heavy shots and just keeps coming.
 
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