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IrishNinja

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,837
Vice City
az9JEDW.jpg


lifted directly from BDS Movement's homepage:

The Palestinian BDS campaign is an effective way to provide support and solidarity to the Palestinian struggle for freedom, justice and equality. It aims to pressure Israel to comply with international law and to end international support for Israel's regime of settler colonialism and apartheid.
a brief history of how we got here:

Israel was formed in 1948 through the brutal displacement of nearly 800,000 Palestinians and the destruction of more than 530 towns and villages. This pre-meditated ethnic cleansing is known as al-Nakba, the catastrophe. Since then, Israel has implemented a regieme of settler colonialism, apartheid and occupation. over the Palestinian people.

During and since its foundation in 1948, Israel has set out to control as much of the land of historic Palestine as possible and drive as many of the indigenous Palestinian population from the land as it can. Israel's oppression of Palestinians involves settler colonialism: Zionism seeks to establish a distinct new society, take over control of land and resources and forcibly remove Palestinians.

HL7vsEv.png


...
There are many similarities between apartheid in South Africa and modern day Israeli apartheid. South African apartheid was characterised by settler colonialism and the forced displacement of the indigenous population, the division of the colonised into different groups with different rights, severe restrictions on movement and violent suppression of resistance. These are all key characteristics of Israel's modern day regime over the Palestinian people.
...

Israel has de-facto control over all of Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories but treats Jewish Israelis and Palestinians very differently. The way in which Palestinians are given less rights than Jewish Israelis is is institutionalised and written into the laws that govern how the Israeli state operates.
The majority of Palestinians are the 7.25m refugees who have been forced from their homes to make way for Jewish Israelis and are denied their right to return to their homes. The demand that Palestinian refugees be allowed their right to return to their homes is a key demand of the Palestinian struggle for freedom, justice and equality.

Israel says it is a "Jewish and democratic" state. However, the 20% of the population of Israel who are Palestinian citizens of Israel who are subjected to a series of racist laws and segregation policies that facilitate the continued ethnic cleansing of Palestinian citizens of Israel and make them third class citizens. A state that gives different rights to different people based purely on their ethnic identity cannot be described as a democracy.

Israel carried out horrific massacres of Palestinians in Gaza in 2008-09, 2012 and 2014. In all three attacks, the UN and human rights organisations have documented how Israel deliberately attacked Palestinian civilians, schools, hospitals and other civilian infrastructure and other war crimes. A UN report published in 2015 said that Gaza could be "uninhabitable" by 2020 as a result of the economic siege imposed by Israel and its regular attacks on Palestinians.

The offiical list of things to boycott:is fairly short, this list provides many more specifics (and occassinal links for details as well)

that 2nd list is literally the only time i'll ever tell you to read the comments - the bulk of BDS' list is businesses operating in occupied territory and/or directly supporting the IDF. others feel it worth the effort to boycott large business simply operating out of Israel, and other questions get answered like "why isn't Intel on the list?" (the movement feels their near-monopolistic hold makes them a more difficult target for average consumers, and so puts its focus elsewhere - you & I can support AMD, however).

A great mobile resource is Buycott.

It cannot be stressed enough that BDS is just one way to show solidarity, and many civil rights groups are working to fight for their cause - we could do an entire thread on the history of the Black Panther Party & other pioneers seeing common ground in the shared struggle against colonialism. If you're interested, here's an excellent piece on just that.

~F.A.Q.~

Q. Isn't this effort antisemetic in nature?

A. No. the nation of Israel =/= the worldwide Jewish community, as there are far more Jews outside of Israel than in it. Moreover, not all Isrealis are Jewish (hence, apartheid).

while antisemetism is a very real problem & back on the rise again - and these issues are very much worth talking about & combating as well - it is important not to conflate that with honest critiques of Israel's human rights violations.

here's a much more thorough & eloquent source: Jewish Voice for Peace - Fighting Antisemitism

Q. Don't the Israelis have the right to just protect their border? How is this apartheid?

A. this likewise can warrant its own thread, but i find this short series a good primer:



Q. Is this effort even going to have any impact?

A. judging by the condemnations from Israel & the effort to put anti-BDS laws on the books in more american states (a gesture, but an effective one in demonizing the movement for many), I'd say demonstrably yes, but take a look at this:

With all of these pension funds divesting and banks in Europe pulling out of relations with Israeli banks we started to see a real impact. A United Nations report in 2015 revealed that foreign direct investment in the Israeli economy in 2014 plummeted in comparison to 2013 by about 46 percent. That's almost half of the foreign direct investment dropped between 2013 and 2014. This is extremely significant because Israel's economy relies tremendously on foreign investment.

Corporations like Rand in the United States are coming out with surveys and studies showing that BDS might cost Israel in the next 10 years one percent to two percent of its GDP annually. In 10 years that amounts to about $28 billion to $56 billion. That basically offsets the entire aid package US awards to Israel in 10 years. So, imagine that – this soft, non-violent human rights movement that's global and led by Palestine civil society can affect Israel's economy to the extent that we can offset the entire U.S. aid to Israel which is one of the main reasons why Israel's regime of oppression is able to maintain its denial of Palestinian rights.

Q. I don't agree with boycotts.

A. Not only do they have significant historical value in liberation movements, their legality was declared by the US supreme court.
Palestinians already have a difficult time having their struggle heard, when so much of the narrative puts them as terrorists, ant any violent resistance - however minor - often gets them jailed or killed. BDS has proven to be their most effective nonviolent measure to date, and to quote JFK, those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.

and so help me god if anyone gets me started on the old "IF YOU DON'T BOYCOTT ALL THE THINGS, YOU CAN'T BOYCOTT ANY OF THEM" anti-logic, ugh

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Resources: (a work in progress!)


^the ebook will be free for 6 more days, grab it while you can!

Angela Davis - Freedom is a Constant Struggle: Ferguson, Palestine, and the Foundations of a Movement

Edward Said - The Question of Palestine, Culture and Imperialism

Noam Chomsky - Gaza in Crisis, The Fateful Triangle, tons of stuff

gentle reminder that antisemitism is very much against ERA's policy, and unwelcome both here and anywhere else. this includes speaking on the international jewish community as though it were a monolithic entity or hinting at tired conspiracy theories of said community controlling everything. be better than this y'all
 
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Prine

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,724
Thank you! I wasnt aware of this, i will read up on it tonight.

Also i cant recommend Noam Chomsky's Gaza in Crisis enough, profound insight into the history of todays struggle.
 

Kufkah

Permanently banned for usage of an alt-account.
Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,253
Does this Boycott app require an account?!
 
OP
OP
IrishNinja

IrishNinja

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,837
Vice City
Thank you! I wasnt aware of this, i will read up on it tonight.

Also i cant recommend Noam Chomsky's Gaza in Crisis enough, profound insight into the history of todays struggle.

glad to help, man - and i too have to get onto that one sometime, i'm a fan of chomsky but he's prolific, haha

Does this Boycott app require an account?!

i want to say yes? i downloaded the app a little while back & added the causes i was interested in, haven't received any spam or the like if that's your concern!
 

Deleted member 2620

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,491
This isn't new or anything, but I only ran into this story recently and found it pretty ridiculous:

https://www.aclu.org/blog/free-spee...-train-math-teachers-because-i-boycott-israel

I'm a member of the Mennonite Church. I've also been a math teacher for almost a decade. Because of my political views, the state of Kansas has decided that I can't help it train other math teachers.

[...]

In June, Kansas passed a law requiring any individual or company seeking a contract with the state to certify that they are not engaged in a boycott of Israel. That law affects me personally. As a member of the Mennonite Church USA, and a person concerned with the human rights of all people — and specifically the ongoing violations of Palestinians' human rights in Israel and Palestine — I choose to boycott consumer goods made by Israeli and international companies that profit from the violation of Palestinians' rights.
 
OP
OP
IrishNinja

IrishNinja

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,837
Vice City

sirap

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,210
South East Asia
Thanks for the thread IrishNinja. Buycott looks really handy and I wish I had something like that back in 2004. My efforts might not mean much in the grand scheme of things, but it's the right thing to do.
 

Nivash

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,463
I support efforts to pressure Israel into excersising true military restraint, to support Palestine politically and economically and eventually to lead to reconciliation. This can absolutely include boycotts, divestions and sanctions. But BDS as a movement is far too one-sided and far too excessive in its goals. Any truly workable solution in Israel and Palestine needs to recognise that it's not even remotely as simple as having one opressor and one victim.

True, the power differential is enormous, which puts the responsibility for descalation mostly on Israel. But we're still dealing with two people here that have suffered incredible repression and existential threats in living memory. Israel might be secure now but that definitely wasn't always the case. Netanyahu was a young adult back in 1967 when Israel was genuinely contemplating the possibilty of being wiped out by its neighbors. Every adult Israely have either themselves experienced the same or had their parents tell them about it. This obviously colors how Israel views the conflict in a way that doesn't fit into the coloniser vs colonised narrative at all. Trying to do so is a disservice to actally understanding the conflict. The historical background in the OP is basically historical revisionism.

It's not possible to completely support either Israeli or Palestinian goals because both come at severe, unacceptable cost to the other. Think of the practical considerations. Like the OP mentions, there are 7,25 million displaced Palestinians, mostly second or third generation. There are 8,7 million Israelis. Truly granting unlimited right to retun would completely end Israel and displace more or less the entire Israeli population. Even if you leave aside the morality of this it's obviously a complete impossibility for Israel to ever accept. We're not talking about a colonising nation where the colonisers can head home. Israel is it. It's the only Jewish nation on earth. It's the only home the vast majority of Israelis know. The right to return is a fantasy. It will never happen outside of Israel being militarily forced to undergo it, which would also likely have to be a genocide.

I can't help but feel that BDS aggravates the situation with no hope of achieving anything beyond somewhat economically damaging Israel, which won't lead to any improvement for Palestinians. Political actions need to accompany realistic goals.

EDIT: I re-checked the numbers because I remembered that muslim Israelis are also included in the numbers, and there are actually about 6,2 million Jewish Israelis. Not that it disproves my point, but accuracy is important.
 
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Kufkah

Permanently banned for usage of an alt-account.
Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,253
...
I can't help but feel that BDS aggravates the situation with no hope of achieving anything beyond somewhat economically damaging Israel, which won't lead to any improvement for Palestinians. Political actions need to accompany realistic goals.
Except this isn't about solving the the Israel/Palestine problem, it's is about sending a message to a government that have no regards for human rights.
 

PanickyFool

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,947
Fuck New York State Democrats

http://gothamist.com/2017/07/19/schumer_gillibrand_co-sponsor_senat.php

Schumer and Gillibrand aren't New York's first Democratic politicians who've embraced #TheResistance while simultaneously attacking BDS activists. As part of Andrew Cuomo's Definitely Not Running For President efforts, the governor issued an executive order earlier this year instructing the state of New York to boycott any business that supports the BDS movement.

"If you boycott against Israel, New York will boycott you. If you divert revenues from Israel, New York will divert revenues from you. If you sanction Israel, New York will sanction you, period," Cuomo said when he signed the order.
 

zer0blivion

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,721
Canada
I support efforts to pressure Israel into excersising true military restraint, to support Palestine politically and economically and eventually to lead to reconciliation. This can absolutely include boycotts, divestions and sanctions. But BDS as a movement is far too one-sided and far too excessive in its goals. Any truly workable solution in Israel and Palestine needs to recognise that it's not even remotely as simple as having one opressor and one victim.

True, the power differential is enormous, which puts the responsibility for descalation mostly on Israel. But we're still dealing with two people here that have suffered incredible repression and existential threats in living memory. Israel might be secure now but that definitely wasn't always the case. Netanyahu was a young adult back in 1967 when Israel was genuinely contemplating the possibilty of being wiped out by its neighbors. Every adult Israely have either themselves experienced the same or had their parents tell them about it. This obviously colors how Israel views the conflict in a way that doesn't fit into the coloniser vs colonised narrative at all. Trying to do so is a disservice to actally understanding the conflict. The historical background in the OP is basically historical revisionism.

It's not possible to completely support either Israeli or Palestinian goals because both come at severe, unacceptable cost to the other. Think of the practical considerations. Like the OP mentions, there are 7,25 million displaced Palestinians, mostly second or third generation. There are 8,7 million Israelis. Truly granting unlimited right to retun would completely end Israel and displace more or less the entire Israeli population. Even if you leave aside the morality of this it's obviously a complete impossibility for Israel to ever accept. We're not talking about a colonising nation where the colonisers can head home. Israel is it. It's the only Jewish nation on earth. It's the only home the vast majority of Israelis know. The right to return is a fantasy. It will never happen outside of Israel being militarily forced to undergo it, which would also likely have to be a genocide.

I can't help but feel that BDS aggravates the situation with no hope of achieving anything beyond somewhat economically damaging Israel, which won't lead to any improvement for Palestinians. Political actions need to accompany realistic goals.

Why is the Palestinian right of return a fantasy, yet people who convert to Judaism are entitled to Israeli citizenship under the Law of Return, when they have absolutely zero ancestral ties to the region?
 

Nivash

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,463
Except this isn't about solving the the Israel/Palestine problem, it's is about sending a message to a government that have no regards for human rights.

Exactly. Which is why it's damn important that the message isn't interpreted as "we want you to end yourself". Which it will, with the kinds of goals BDS has. Messages demanding the impossible will be ignored no matter what the price is.

Why is the Palestinian right of return a fantasy, yet people who convert to Judaism are entitled to Israeli citizenship under the Law of Return, when they have absolutely zero ancestral ties to the region?

Because of the reasons I wrote in my post. If the right of return is completely honored and Israel returns to the same state it was before 1949 in that post up there, Israel will cease to exist. You can't on the one hand argue that all displaced Palestinians have a right to return and completely ignore what happens to the people living in those areas now.

It's a political impossibility. There's no use demanding Israel accept it when they would rather die first.
 
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Oneiros

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,957
It's not possible to completely support either Israeli or Palestinian goals because both come at severe, unacceptable cost to the other. Think of the practical considerations. Like the OP mentions, there are 7,25 million displaced Palestinians, mostly second or third generation. There are 8,7 million Israelis. Truly granting unlimited right to retun would completely end Israel and displace more or less the entire Israeli population. Even if you leave aside the morality of this it's obviously a complete impossibility for Israel to ever accept. We're not talking about a colonising nation where the colonisers can head home. Israel is it. It's the only Jewish nation on earth. It's the only home the vast majority of Israelis know. The right to return is a fantasy. It will never happen outside of Israel being militarily forced to undergo it, which would also likely have to be a genocide.
Yeah, I sympathize with the Palestinians, but their "right to return" stance is completely unrealistic and could never be accomplished peacefully.
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
I support efforts to pressure Israel into excersising true military restraint, to support Palestine politically and economically and eventually to lead to reconciliation. This can absolutely include boycotts, divestions and sanctions. But BDS as a movement is far too one-sided and far too excessive in its goals. Any truly workable solution in Israel and Palestine needs to recognise that it's not even remotely as simple as having one opressor and one victim.

True, the power differential is enormous, which puts the responsibility for descalation mostly on Israel. But we're still dealing with two people here that have suffered incredible repression and existential threats in living memory. Israel might be secure now but that definitely wasn't always the case. Netanyahu was a young adult back in 1967 when Israel was genuinely contemplating the possibilty of being wiped out by its neighbors. Every adult Israely have either themselves experienced the same or had their parents tell them about it. This obviously colors how Israel views the conflict in a way that doesn't fit into the coloniser vs colonised narrative at all. Trying to do so is a disservice to actally understanding the conflict. The historical background in the OP is basically historical revisionism.

It's not possible to completely support either Israeli or Palestinian goals because both come at severe, unacceptable cost to the other. Think of the practical considerations. Like the OP mentions, there are 7,25 million displaced Palestinians, mostly second or third generation. There are 8,7 million Israelis. Truly granting unlimited right to retun would completely end Israel and displace more or less the entire Israeli population. Even if you leave aside the morality of this it's obviously a complete impossibility for Israel to ever accept. We're not talking about a colonising nation where the colonisers can head home. Israel is it. It's the only Jewish nation on earth. It's the only home the vast majority of Israelis know. The right to return is a fantasy. It will never happen outside of Israel being militarily forced to undergo it, which would also likely have to be a genocide.

I can't help but feel that BDS aggravates the situation with no hope of achieving anything beyond somewhat economically damaging Israel, which won't lead to any improvement for Palestinians. Political actions need to accompany realistic goals.

EDIT: I re-checked the numbers because I remembered that muslim Israelis are also included in the numbers, and there are actually about 6,2 million Jewish Israelis. Not that it disproves my point, but accuracy is important.
What efforts specifically you support though?
Because while the BDS is not perfect, it is by far the most serious organization trying to pressure Israel through diplomatic and economic means.

Also, I don't really accept that the fact the Israel want to maintain a Jewish majority is a good enough reason to deny basic human rights from millions of people. Though it probably should be noted that there are frameworks that allows for both right of return and achieving that goal (2 state solution with the 2nd generation right of return to be granted in the newly formed Palestinian state is the most obvious one), so even if I supported that goal, none of this is should really a show-stopper.
 
OP
OP
IrishNinja

IrishNinja

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,837
Vice City
Except this isn't about solving the the Israel/Palestine problem, it's is about sending a message to a government that have no regards for human rights.

thank you

really not interested in narratives about how unsafe israel once was generations ago, especially after yesterday's horrors

Any truly workable solution in Israel and Palestine needs to recognise that it's not even remotely as simple as having one opressor and one victim.

i'm sure the gaza residents currently enjoying 90% undrinkable water would gain tremendously from whatever terminology you're more comfortable with
"apartheid" and "ethnic cleansing" upset so many concerned with tone, but not much else - case in point

I can't help but feel that BDS aggravates the situation with no hope of achieving anything beyond somewhat economically damaging Israel, which won't lead to any improvement for Palestinians. Political actions need to accompany realistic goals.

again, it's been the most effective tool so far - if you've got a better one, i implore you to share it. this is very much a one-sided humanitarian crisis, with the oppressed literally struggling to get their story out or have anything remotely resembling agency to change their situation
 
OP
OP
IrishNinja

IrishNinja

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,837
Vice City
Yeah, I sympathize with the Palestinians,

good, as that's the core of the issue here - literally every liberation movement has lofty goals. the black panther party didn't satisfy the vast majority of the 10 point program, should they not then have fought & accomplished what they did?


damn, as if i needed another reason to toss cuomo in the bin
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,371
Thanks for the thread. Very informative.

Buycott keeps crashing on my phone, so I checked the list and fortunately I haven't been using any of those products. I did almost buy a HP printer before I found out about their shenanigans, but decided against it.
 

Deleted member 33887

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 20, 2017
2,109
I learned about Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions thanks to a Youtube ad taken out be pro-Israel groups. I've actually learned a lot about the Palestinian situation because I get these really weird ads from these groups about all these "awful Palestinian movements that must be stopped," so I go look into it and I'm like "yeah... that sounds reasonable from the Palestinians."

I don't get what the deal is with all these far right ads popping up on Youtube either. They did the same with "German deathcamps" and the NRA ads, and it feels disgustingly Orwellian.
 

lowmelody

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,101
This is a good as well as interesting thread, the buycott app looks really interesting.

It really is hard to be sure who and where you support at any given time, glad to see that awareness of that us producing solutions like this.
 

nib95

Contains No Misinformation on Philly Cheesesteaks
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,498
Great thread, thank you for making it.

We can all do more to help, and the BDS movement coupled with protesting, writing to politicians, engaging on forums etc, are just some of the ways how.
 

Nivash

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,463
What efforts specifically you support though?
Because while the BDS is not perfect, it is by far the most serious organization trying to pressure Israel through diplomatic and economic means.

Also, I don't really accept that the fact the Israel want to maintain a Jewish majority is a good enough reason to deny basic human rights from millions of people. Though it probably should be noted that there are frameworks that allows for both right of return and achieving that goal (2 state solution with the 2nd generation right of return to be granted in the newly formed Palestinian state is the most obvious one), so even if I supported that goal, none of this is should really a show-stopper.

The ones I mentioned above: repercussions for Israeli violence of the kind we're seeing right now, which is indefensible, while recognising that Israel has a right to defend itself against violence provided it does so proportionarly and while avoiding civilian deaths. An end to further settlement expansion. Easing the isolation of Gaza. Increased aid and infrastructure support from Israel to Palestine. Genuine intentions from the Israeli government to cooperate with Palestinian authorities. Things that the average Israeli can actually read without having a chill run down their spine.

Israel existing as a Jewish-majority state is a necessity for the time being because, again, anything else is impossible. Israel is paranoid enough to fight to the death to avoid that changing. If we did manage to achieve decades of peace and good relations between Israel and Palestine that could change, but it's not possible now. Decades might not even be enough. Generations are more like it.

And sure, "right of return" for the odd millions of Palestinians outside of Palestine to move to the Palestinian territories is different and remotely feasible, but not how right of return is typically interpreted.

really not interested in narratives about how unsafe israel once was generations ago, especially after yesterday's horrors

You have to be if you want to actually change things, because it completely informs the Israeli position and explains why Israel acts the way it does. If you don't understand them you can't affect them.

i'm sure the gaza residents currently enjoying 90% undrinkable water would gain tremendously from whatever terminology you're more comfortable with
"apartheid" and "ethnic cleansing" upset so many concerned with tone, but not much else - case in point

I have no issue with language. Israel acts as an apartheid state, this is fact. Ethnic cleansing is a bit more murky in my opinion - it qualifies in a lot of ways but not in others. But this is semantics which is uninteresting.

again, it's been the most effective tool so far - if you've got a better one, i implore you to share it. this is very much a one-sided humanitarian crisis, with the oppressed literally struggling to get their story out or have anything remotely resembling agency to change their situation

Which I absolutely agree with. But you're not going to change that by demanding Israel do the impossible, which BDS does. Sanctions are useless if the target would rather die than do the thing that you ask of them, which Israel is - because they view doing that things as death anyway. This is why a more accurate historical background is important. Without it, it's impossible to appreciate why Israel is prepared to go to as extreme lengths as it have. Leaning to heavily into one side leaves one with the impression that Israelis are simply a naturally evil people, which is both inaccurate and useless as a conclusion and which informs no useful actions.[/QUOTE]
 
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Oneiros

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,957
good, as that's the core of the issue here - literally every liberation movement has lofty goals. the black panther party didn't satisfy the vast majority of the 10 point program, should they not then have fought & accomplished what they did?
A movement also needs to have practical goals that can be accomplished.
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
The ones I mentioned above: repercussions for Israeli violence of the kind we're seeing right now, which is indefensible, while recognising that Israel has a right to defend itself against violence provided it does so proportionarly and while avoiding civilian deaths. An end to further settlement expansion. Easing the isolation of Gaza. Increased aid and infrastructure support from Israel to Palestine. Genuine intentions from the Israeli government to cooperate with Palestinian authorities. Things that the average Israeli can actually read without having a chill run down their spine.

Israel existing as a Jewish-majority state is a necessity for the time being because, again, anything else is impossible. Israel is paranoid enough to fight to the death to avoid that changing. If we did manage to achieve decades of peace and good relations between Israel and Palestine that could change, but it's not possible now. Decades might not even be enough. Generations are more like it.

And sure, "right of return" for the odd millions of Palestinians outside of Palestine to move to the Palestinian territories is different and remotely feasible, but not how right of return is typically interpreted.
So you're supporting a theoretical, non-existing movement?
Again, if there were a couple of organizations working seriously toward implementing international pressure on Israel it would be one thing, but it seems to me like you're finding faults in the BDS movement and use it as an excuse to do nothing instead.
As for the interpretation of the right of return, had Israel dismantled all the settlement and gave the Palestinians a full, real state in occupied territories combines with international support and the right of return of refugees to its territory, both the Palestinians and the international community would embrace it in 5 minutes.

And while I agree that the majority of Jews in Israel are amazingly hostile to the idea of giving real and full equal rights to Palestinians, so were the whites in Apartheid south Africa (and they share the exact same fears of what will happen the day after you grant oppressed minorities equal rights), still, with enough international pressure they managed to see the light. And even if I'm wrong, considering that the alternative is rivers of blood, it is at least worth a try.
 

Asmar

Member
Oct 27, 2017
402
THANK YOU for doing this. We all must stand for Palestine and this is in our power to do.
I myself try to convince others around me to take actions as well.
#FreePalestine
 

Nivash

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,463
So you're supporting a theoretical, non-existing movement?
Again, if there were a couple of organizations working seriously toward implementing international pressure on Israel it would be one thing, but it seems to me like you're finding faults in the BDS movement and use it as an excuse to do nothing instead.
As for the interpretation of the right of return, had Israel dismantled all the settlement and gave the Palestinians a full, real state in occupied territories combines with international support and the right of return of refugees to its territory, both the Palestinians and the international community would embrace it in 5 minutes.

And while I agree that the majority of Jews in Israel are amazingly hostile to the idea of giving real and full equal rights to Palestinians, so were the whites in Apartheid south Africa (and they share the exact same fears of what will happen the day after you grant oppressed minorities equal rights), still, with enough international pressure they managed to see the light. And even if I'm wrong, considering that the alternative is rivers of blood, it is at least worth a try.

I actually think that counter-productive efforts - to which I include BDS in its present form - do more damage than doing nothing, because it poisons the well for other actual productive efforts. But really, I have nothing against BDS as an organisation in essence, just its current goals. And are you seriously arguing that people should support BDS just because there aren't any other organisations to choose right now, even if doing so backfires? There have to be better reasons to support a movement if you're interested in real, tangible change.

Apartheid is a bad example in this regard. White South Africa was always a minority (if a ruling minority), actually did stem from colonising nations that were still around and which they could integrate into if needed (even if they'd been South Africans for generations) and the Apartheid conflict was never anywhere as near as bloody as the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. They hadn't fought several wars against larger neighbors bent on genocide, for one, so South Africans were not as justifiably paranoid.

Apartheid also ended due to it becoming unsustainable for reasons that goes beyond the boycott for that matter, and these reasons don't exist in Israel in the same way.
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
I actually think that counter-productive efforts - to which I include BDS in its present form - do more damage than doing nothing, because it poisons the well for other actual productive efforts. But really, I have nothing against BDS as an organisation in essence, just its current goals. And are you seriously arguing that people should support BDS just because there aren't any other organisations to choose right now, even if doing so backfires? There have to be better reasons to support a movement if you're interested in real, tangible change.
Again, which productive efforts?
Because I'm hearing a lot of no to BDS, but not suggestions about which other efforts people should support.

Apartheid is a bad example in this regard. White South Africa was always a minority (if a ruling minority), actually did stem from colonising nations that were still around and which they could integrate into if needed (even if they'd been South Africans for generations) and the Apartheid conflict was never anywhere as near as bloody as the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. They hadn't fought several wars against larger neighbors bent on genocide, for one, so South Africans were not as justifiably paranoid.

Apartheid also ended due to it becoming unsustainable for reasons that goes beyond the boycott for that matter, and these reasons don't exist in Israel in the same way.
It's not a perfect comparison, no historical examples are, but the fact is that Israel holds millions of people of a specific ethnic background without basic human rights, and subject them to a completely separate and oppressive set of laws, just like South Africa during Apartheid. But in any case, my point of comparison was about the Jewish fear of granting Palestinians full human rights, which I don't think it's that different than what white people thought about granting black people basic human rights.

Also, the idea that the sanctions against South Africa weren't instrumental in the dismantling of Apartheid is a revisionist history (not to mention don't really gel all that well with your claim that you actually support international pressure against Israel).
 
OP
OP
IrishNinja

IrishNinja

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,837
Vice City
You have to be if you want to actually change things, because it completely informs the Israeli position and explains why Israel acts the way it does. If you don't understand them you can't affect them.

i posit that there's no resistance effort that could be worded softly enough to not engage their widely disproportionate responses, as they've shown a propensity to do for quite some time now

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Which I absolutely agree with. But you're not going to change that by demanding Israel do the impossible, which BDS does. Sanctions are useless if the target would rather die than do the thing that you ask of them, which Israel is - because they view doing that things as death anyway. This is why a more accurate historical background is important. Without it, it's impossible to appreciate why Israel is prepared to go to as extreme lengths as it have. Leaning to heavily into one side leaves one with the impression that Israelis are simply a naturally evil people, which is both inaccurate and useless as a conclusion and which informs no useful actions.

most people aren't interested in palestine's history or plight, evident by the fact that so very many believe this particular conflict has been waged for much longer than 70 years.
no one - not even the movement - is labeling the israelis as an evil people, but their actions here very clearly are. as per my last response: their far-right state has shown a lack of genuine interest in peace/2-state efforts and a very open willingness to rationalize any action it takes, however barbaric - did you miss the rhetoric yesterday alone?

A movement also needs to have practical goals that can be accomplished.

it very clearly does? that's what this entire effort is actually about
are you responding to me, or simply focusing on one lofty goal in lieu of actually reading?
 

Asmar

Member
Oct 27, 2017
402
I support efforts to pressure Israel into excersising true military restraint, to support Palestine politically and economically and eventually to lead to reconciliation. This can absolutely include boycotts, divestions and sanctions. But BDS as a movement is far too one-sided and far too excessive in its goals. Any truly workable solution in Israel and Palestine needs to recognise that it's not even remotely as simple as having one opressor and one victim.

True, the power differential is enormous, which puts the responsibility for descalation mostly on Israel. But we're still dealing with two people here that have suffered incredible repression and existential threats in living memory. Israel might be secure now but that definitely wasn't always the case. Netanyahu was a young adult back in 1967 when Israel was genuinely contemplating the possibilty of being wiped out by its neighbors. Every adult Israely have either themselves experienced the same or had their parents tell them about it. This obviously colors how Israel views the conflict in a way that doesn't fit into the coloniser vs colonised narrative at all. Trying to do so is a disservice to actally understanding the conflict. The historical background in the OP is basically historical revisionism.

It's not possible to completely support either Israeli or Palestinian goals because both come at severe, unacceptable cost to the other. Think of the practical considerations. Like the OP mentions, there are 7,25 million displaced Palestinians, mostly second or third generation. There are 8,7 million Israelis. Truly granting unlimited right to retun would completely end Israel and displace more or less the entire Israeli population. Even if you leave aside the morality of this it's obviously a complete impossibility for Israel to ever accept. We're not talking about a colonising nation where the colonisers can head home. Israel is it. It's the only Jewish nation on earth. It's the only home the vast majority of Israelis know. The right to return is a fantasy. It will never happen outside of Israel being militarily forced to undergo it, which would also likely have to be a genocide.

I can't help but feel that BDS aggravates the situation with no hope of achieving anything beyond somewhat economically damaging Israel, which won't lead to any improvement for Palestinians. Political actions need to accompany realistic goals.

EDIT: I re-checked the numbers because I remembered that muslim Israelis are also included in the numbers, and there are actually about 6,2 million Jewish Israelis. Not that it disproves my point, but accuracy is important.

You know this mentality that insist that Israel must maintain a Jewish majority was what drove the zionist militias to kill and expel all the Arab population that lived within the Jewish state (as decided by the UN partition plan), after Israel first announced its independence. So I feel this someway or another justifies the mass exodus that happened in 48. And I'm sure you don't agree with it.

Second of all, I if you think that the return of Palestinian refugees to "Israel" is unrealistic, what alternative solution would you propose? Because I'm fucking sure that the Arab states won't grant them citizenship and equal rights and they are no more obligated to solve the problem than Israel is, who is the reason they are stateless and occupy their ancestral home.

The Palestinians have more claim and connection to Haifa than a Russian Jewish family that just decided to move there.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,784
Huh, for some reason I thought Chomsky was anti-BDS. I must be thinking of Finklestein.

Anyway, I won't be joining in, but good luck. It's a noble goal.
 

Oneiros

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,957
How is treating Palestinians with respect and humanely not a practical goal?
True, that is a good one and hopefully will be accomplished soon.
Second of all, if you think that the return of Palestinian refugees to "Israel" is unrealistic, what alternative solution would you propose? Because I'm fucking sure that the Arab states won't grant them citizenship and equal rights and they are no more obligated to solve the problem than Israel is, who is the reason they are stateless and occupy their ancestral home.
No matter the difficulty, they need to settle elsewhere. Its not their land anymore.
 
OP
OP
IrishNinja

IrishNinja

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,837
Vice City
No matter the difficulty, they need to settle elsewhere. Its not their land anymore.

not even the occupied lands, eh? you're no doubt aware of the history of jordan & egypt with the refugees then
always interesting to see colonialist defense force rear its head here, usually i have to wait until threads about museums
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
No matter the difficulty, they need to settle elsewhere. Its not their land anymore.
The historical irony of Israel being founded in the idea that people has the right to a land that their great great great great [...] great great grandparents lived at 2000 years ago wholw at the same time treating people who wants to go back to the actual place where they were actual born at as crazy people making unreasonable demands will forever be infuriatingly frustrating to me.
 

Lkr

Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,525
My company has a policy against boycotting Israel I learned yesterday :\