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Shaneus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,896
https://www.dogarandkazon.com/blog/2018/3/18/strange-settlement-on-an-alien-planet
New update from Paul and Fred detailing the recent 'settlement' offered by Stardock and the aggressive grab for the rights to aliens and stuff. It's predictably gross.
They're not actually going to try and succeed with this, are they? There's less than zero effort into any "settlement", it's just bullshit and hubris from Wardell. Each one of those points just makes me fume more and more. Argh.

Hopefully they use some of that Skylanders money to rip him and Stardock a new one.

Edit: I didn't even notice the stuff about trying to trademark all the old alien names. They're really going scorched earth on this. Stardock/Wardell are fucking crazy.
 
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spman2099

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,891
It is amazing how consistently every person that supported GamerGate is some kind of cancer on the industry...
 

KonradLaw

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,960
I don't know why Stardock is even trying do hard. Even if they lost the IP literally the only thing they would have to change is Origins title. Star Control isn't a blockbuster IP these days. There are people who still value it, but those are the exact same people who are likelly to follow this legal mess and be pissed at Stardock for it, no matters what legal merit they might have or not.
 

Quad Lasers

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,542
Jesus christ that complete about-face on the settlement terms.

Truly my life's greatest mistake was was giving Wardell's dumb ass money for Demigod.
 

s_mirage

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,770
Birmingham, UK
I don't know why Stardock is even trying do hard. Even if they lost the IP literally the only thing they would have to change is Origins title. Star Control isn't a blockbuster IP these days. There are people who still value it, but those are the exact same people who are likelly to follow this legal mess and be pissed at Stardock for it, no matters what legal merit they might have or not.

Ego? Brad doesn't like being repeatedly told no by FF and PR?
 
Feb 16, 2018
2,679
I don't know why Stardock is even trying do hard. Even if they lost the IP literally the only thing they would have to change is Origins title. Star Control isn't a blockbuster IP these days. There are people who still value it, but those are the exact same people who are likelly to follow this legal mess and be pissed at Stardock for it, no matters what legal merit they might have or not.

they probably don't want to spend millions acquiring the rights for, developing, and promoting a game and then have someone else take advantage of that by trying to sell a "real" star control sequel

i heard about the stardock star control years ago and never heard about this other successor until now

if both sides have conflicting ideas about who owns what, then probably neither side's blog/lawyers are going to provide any reliable info
 

KonradLaw

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,960
they probably don't want to spend millions acquiring the rights for, developing, and promoting a game and then have someone else take advantage of that by trying to sell a "real" star control sequel

i heard about the stardock star control years ago and never heard about this other successor until now

if both sides have conflicting ideas about who owns what, then probably neither side's blog/lawyers are going to provide any reliable info
Yeah, I guess at this point any good will is gone from both parties. Plus the more outrageous demands laywers start with the easier it is to scale back and still come off with something satisfactionary in court.
 

The Orz

Member
Dec 5, 2017
220
https://www.dogarandkazon.com/blog/2018/3/18/strange-settlement-on-an-alien-planet
New update from Paul and Fred detailing the recent 'settlement' offered by Stardock and the aggressive grab for the rights to aliens and stuff. It's predictably gross.

Wow.

So, in short, Stardock wants Paul and Fred to rewrite history.

This is cartoon-grade villainy. Is Stardock doing this to deliberately delay Ghosts while they crap out Origins? Do they have any confidence in their reboot at all? Unless I'm missing something, this doesn't seem smart at all. It certainly won't build any goodwill with longtime fans (of which a title like Origins would be largely dependant upon).
 

The Orz

Member
Dec 5, 2017
220
they probably don't want to spend millions acquiring the rights for, developing, and promoting a game and then have someone else take advantage of that by trying to sell a "real" star control sequel

I really don't think Fred and Paul are taking advantage of the "hype" surrounding a Star Control reboot to promote a personal project they've been wanting to complete for years.

Edit: mobile issues
 

raterpillar

Banned
Nov 12, 2017
1,393
they probably don't want to spend millions acquiring the rights for, developing, and promoting a game and then have someone else take advantage of that by trying to sell a "real" star control sequel

i heard about the stardock star control years ago and never heard about this other successor until now

if both sides have conflicting ideas about who owns what, then probably neither side's blog/lawyers are going to provide any reliable info
Lol. Paul and Fred have been wanting to do a true sequel to their game for years. They've been tied up with Skylanders, but now that's on ice they're going ahead with it. You have a pretty skewed perspective here.
 

Wakawun

Member
Oct 27, 2017
323
I will lose all faith in humanity if Brad Wardell wins his slimy case against the real deal. Check out Paul's sketchbook:
https://www.dogarandkazon.com/blog/2018/3/8/all-aboard-the-starship-discovery

It's just incredible how much thought and creativity went into every aspect - from music design, to the ship combat, to the relationships between the races and the story tropes he wanted to explore. If Stardock were confident in their own product, they wouldn't need to take the good guys down.
 

KonradLaw

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,960
This is cartoon-grade villainy. Is Stardock doing this to deliberately delay Ghosts while they crap out Origins?

Doubt it's about that. Ghosts are this point is either vaporware or extremely early in production. By the time it actually launches Origins will be after multiple add-ons and starting to appear in bundles.
Which is also why I don't buy the idea thay they're piggybagging on Origins marketing campaign, since their game is likely to launch years later.
 

The Orz

Member
Dec 5, 2017
220
This is a huge deal and it deserves so much more attention than it's receiving. Imagine if Sega pulled this nonsense with Yu Suzuki over Shenmue 3--fans would be livid!

I still can't get over the bit in the settlement about Fred and Paul having to denounce their role in the creation of Star Control. I mean why? Why would you even think that was a good idea?
 

Shaneus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,896
It's just incredible how much thought and creativity went into every aspect - from music design, to the ship combat, to the relationships between the races and the story tropes he wanted to explore.
I was honestly floored when I saw he'd noted down how to use the MOD/music tracker to make his own music. Obviously that didn't happen in the end (unless there are short ditties still in the game), but you're right in that it shows just how much detail, thought and planning went into it.

Doubt it's about that. Ghosts are this point is either vaporware or extremely early in production. By the time it actually launches Origins will be after multiple add-ons and starting to appear in bundles.
I think without any of this bullshit it could've been ruled out as vaporware. I could honestly see them getting the ball rolling and maybe going through with a Kickstarter after basic plans, proofs-of-concept are knocked out.

I actually remember ages ago Stardock asking for pledges for working on their Star Control game, I wonder if that was prior to them buying assets/trying to work all this stuff out in 2017.
 

Palette Swap

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
11,197
Catching up, I can't imagine there's an outcome where Stardock get everything they ask for and maintain a semblance of good will among the community / the IP's target audience. They're poisoning it all.
 

Shaneus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,896
"Leaked". Hardly leaked if people involved in the story release it on their own blog.

Good to see a mainstream site picking it up though, even if it is a somewhat small article. More coverage the better.
 

The Orz

Member
Dec 5, 2017
220
https://www.polygon.com/platform/am...settlement-offer-stardock-reiche-ford-wardell
Polygon with a small update - Stardock denies the summary of the settlement posted by Paul and Fred was accurate, declines to post the settlement themselves when urged. Lol.

Thanks for the update! Here are some highlights from said article if anyone's interested:
Paul Reiche III and Frederick Ford, who maintain that they are the creators of the classic Star Control franchise, are being sued by Stardock for trademark infringement. These two groups are at odds over a pair of competing games currently in development, both of which claim to be sequels of the original series.

After first refusing to confirm that a settlement offer was sent, Stardock told Polygon the following: "Paul and Fred's representations are not accurate. However, the settlement discussion was protected by confidentiality, which Paul and Fred violated and then misrepresented and we are not at liberty to discuss it. We have made every effort to be respectful to and adhere to the preferences of Paul and Fred."

"Fred and I stand 100 percent behind what we said in our post," Reiche told Polygon by phone. "We did receive a settlement offer. [...] We haven't yet decided if we want to print it, but we have a suggestion. How about you call [Wardell], who's saying it's dishonest, and ask him to prove it? It's his settlement offer. He has absolute rights to share it, and if he's the one saying it's dishonest, let him produce it because we're totally, completely fine with people seeing it verbatim."

Stardock declined to share the settlement offer with Polygon.

I'm now convinced this is all an elaborate plan on Stardock's part to be included as an evil, farcical, heartless alien race in Ghosts of the Precursors.
 

raterpillar

Banned
Nov 12, 2017
1,393
Thanks for the update! Here are some highlights from said article if anyone's interested:






I'm now convinced this is all an elaborate plan on Stardock's part to be included as an evil, farcical, heartless alien race in Ghosts of the Precursors.
An aggressively litigious race of aliens who level ludicrous charges at you in order to shake you down for resource units or ship parts whenever you enter their space would be perfect for Star Control.
 

Shaneus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,896
UMMainp.png

Tempting...
 

Herr Starr

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,220
Norway
Star Control is near and dear to me, to the point where I became a part of the team that made the official music remixes for The Ur-Quan Masters and stayed a part of that community for years. I remember hearing about the copyright and trademark situation roughly 15 years ago, and it all matches up with what Fred & Paul are saying now. My love for the franchise made me join Stardock's Founders program a while back, but right now that whole thing leaves a sour taste in my mouth due to how Stardock is treating both the Star Control creators and their fans.

As if all the other things mentioned in this thread aren't enough by themselves, all one need do is look at how Wardell chooses to express himself to see that something is off. Take his "Paul and Fred's representations are not accurate" statement, for example. It's such a slimy, lawyery way of muddying his statement. What does "not accurate" mean anyway? Is he saying that Fred & Paul are lying? Is he saying that they misplaced a comma? Is it something in between? We have no idea, and that's precisely the intention. Wardell carefully states things in such a way as to not get called out for lying, and then he allows us to use our imaginations to fill out the blanks in a way that would help his cause and hurt F&P's. Except it's not working. This is blowing up in Wardell's face, and it's all his fault. Stardock's position keeps changing and they keep failing to produce documentation for their claims. When they have produced documentation, it doesn't actually document what they claim it to do, except in those cases where F&P and Stardock are in agreement about something. Meanwhile, F&P have contracts, statements from Activision, and a clear statement of what they want and why they feel they deserve it. They made a mistake with their use of the Star Control trademark at the very beginning of this debacle, but they quickly fixed it.

It's going to take a miracle for Stardock to regain my trust after this, that's for sure. Even if (and that's a big if) they should happen to win in a court of law, they'll still lose in the eyes of the fans.
 

Jeremy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,639
As a Star Control II die-hard fan, I'm thrilled that I came across this thread and now know never to support Stardock in any way whatsoever.
 

Candescence

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,253
Bloody hell. Brad Wardell is a fucking snake, and I hope he loses everything related to Star Control.

There is no way this argument can win. The legal president this would set would invalidate any project holdings that are non single party works (ie unless a single person worked on it's not really theirs). You would never ever be able to contract or outsource anything again which obviously isn't viable.
It'd throw the entire system of copyright for any collaborative work into utter chaos - if that part of the legal proceedings somehow flies in court, I think Wardell is going to make a lot of enemies (there are a lot of vested interests who rely on the current status quo of copyright or outright strengthening it as much as possible even to the detriment of everyone else), nevermind the inevitable campaign to retroactively nullify the decision via legislation.
 

Wakawun

Member
Oct 27, 2017
323
Star Control is near and dear to me, to the point where I became a part of the team that made the official music remixes for The Ur-Quan Masters and stayed a part of that community for years.

Kudos to you and the community for the great work! I really enjoyed listening through the remixes in a recent playthrough. All my favourite tunes brought to life while keeping the great soul of the originals.

As a Star Control II die-hard fan, I'm thrilled that I came across this thread and now know never to support Stardock in any way whatsoever.

Glad you came across this thread. I hope more people know about this injustice and outright dishonesty. Zero sympathy for Stardock. Bullies and IP lawyer terrorists.
 

Herr Starr

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,220
Norway
Kudos to you and the community for the great work! I really enjoyed listening through the remixes in a recent playthrough. All my favourite tunes brought to life while keeping the great soul of the originals.

Thank you! I made the Arilou remix and one of the orbit themes, and I was part of the duo that created the Thraddash, Starbase, Slylandro (probe and home), Ur-Quan, Utwig, and VUX remixes. I'm really proud of what we did with that project. :)

Brad Wardell contacted me back in 2015, and I put him in touch with one of the main composers from the original Star Control 2 who also was the leader of the remix team. Brad recruited him to become the official composer for Star Control: Origins after this. In hindsight, I have mixed feelings about this.
 

The Orz

Member
Dec 5, 2017
220
This part sticks out as they had the same demand when they forced the settlement of the sexual harassment lawsuit.

What, no clause that the accuser must denounce that sexual harassment is even a real thing or that they are barred from engaging in any sexual activity outside of Stardock for at least five years?
 

Shaneus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,896
Brad Wardell contacted me back in 2015, and I put him in touch with one of the main composers from the original Star Control 2 who also was the leader of the remix team. Brad recruited him to become the official composer for Star Control: Origins after this. In hindsight, I have mixed feelings about this.
Don't feel bad, you weren't to know! I did get a little saddened when I saw that in one of the blurbs for Origins, though :(
 

fireflame

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,275
Wardell has been known to get litigious with message boards for criticising him, so prepare to get sued, ResetEra.

He actually encouraged Paul/Fred to go ahead and make Ghosts of the Precursors, so his legal case seems like it could be dubious. I read speculation that he did that so he could sue and get the full rights, which sounds both awful even for him and also really unlikely to work (I am not a lawyer though).
What are the chances of a dev winning a lawsuit over a forum in a case like this?
 

Ra

Rap Genius
Moderator
Oct 27, 2017
12,198
Dark Space
There is one thing I haven't picked up on yet though.

Unless I have missed it, Fred and Paul have yet to fully lay out what they legally own as far as the Star Control IP rights and trademarks go. I mean they said, "It's our opinion that Atari's rights to publish our earlier games terminated over a decade before the auction....", but that should not be a stance based on opinion.

I mean Wardell just filed for trademarks to "The Ur-Quan Masters", "Melnorme", "VUX", Pkunk", "Ilwrath", "Chenjesu", "Androsynth", "Spathi", "SUPER-MELEE", "Syreen", "Ur-Quan", "Orz" and "Yehat". Do they not already own these? If no, why the fuck not?

What is going on here? Again, if I've overlooked it, I apologize, and I'd appreciate it if someone would fill me in on their position. What do Fred and Paul own that's on ironclad, no wiggle room paperwork?
 

The Orz

Member
Dec 5, 2017
220
I had no idea Wardell was legitimately insane. If this was any other game I'd be looking forward to watching this absurd drama unfold...but this is Star Control. Star Control 2 has influenced and inspired me as an artist, writer, and creator. It--and by obvious extension Fred and Paul--don't deserve this sort of treatment.

I wish I could say I was going to boycott Origins but I wasn't planning on buying it anyway. :/
 

Herr Starr

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,220
Norway
Unless I have missed it, Fred and Paul have yet to fully lay out what they legally own as far as the Star Control IP rights and trademarks go. I mean they said, "It's our opinion that Atari's rights to publish our earlier games terminated over a decade before the auction....", but that should not be a stance based on opinion.

They're just being careful with how they state things. It all boils down to this, as far as I can tell: Stardock owns the trademark for Star Control and a shared copyright for Star Control 3. F&P own copyright for all the names, races, the story, and so on associated with the first two games, and they share the copyright for Star Control 3 (but just for the parts that were used with their permission from earlier games, such as the races). If F&P get their way, which in my opinion is the reasonable outcome, Stardock will be allowed to continue creating games called Star Control and can sell Star Control 3, but they can't use anything else from the first two games, nor can they reuse the parts of Star Control 3 that were licensed from F&P. F&P will be able to create a sequel to Star Control with no restrictions except that they can't use the Star Control name itself.

I think F&P are being vague because they consider it a distinct possibility that they might even get the trademark if this case goes through. I don't think they will, but that's no reason for them to ignore the opportunity.
 

OldLogos

Member
Oct 27, 2017
64
I'm kind of out loop the and have been doing some research on this because I find it interesting, but what's the story with Brad Wardell?

At face value this is a tricky rights situation, but in this thread I've seen a lot of accusations thrown at Brad Wardell's character that I don't see evidence for. His Wikipedia reads like any businessman-turned-gaming-exec I've seen, and his whole legal approach to make sure his ownership of the IP is airtight seems by the books.

I'm not trying to defend him or Stardock, but I can't find anything damning about him through a cursory Google search

edit: Twitter posts above didn't load before but did just after I posted this, and ok I can kind of see he's a piece of shit. Still though, not enough to demonize the guy
 
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Adree

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,072
I'm kind of out loop the and have been doing some research on this because I find it interesting, but what's the story with Brad Wardell?

At face value this is a tricky rights situation, but in this thread I've seen a lot of accusations thrown at Brad Wardell's character that I don't see evidence for. His Wikipedia reads like any businessman-turned-gaming-exec I've seen, and his whole legal approach to make sure his ownership of the IP is airtight seems by the books.

I'm not trying to defend him or Stardock, but I can't find anything damning about him through a cursory Google search

edit: Twitter posts above didn't load before but did just after I posted this, and ok I can kind of see he's a piece of shit. Still though, not enough to demonize the guy

Pretty sure being a gamergate supporter is reason enough to demonize someone.