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BREXIT |OT| ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
- Thread starter theaface
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Apart from Corbyn asking for harassment and intimidation in and outside the commons to be addressed and Tory MPs were jeering like idiots.
Apart from that yeah, we're stuck until the vote on May's deal.
No, and if you think that's the case you've not been paying attention.
Parliament wants control of proceedings, not the government. In blocking no deal they're showing that they aren't accepting her deal, and from there they will block No Deal too. Forcing May to change tactics once the deal is voted down.
Their end game is varied. Some want an election, some a second referendum and some want a magic deal based on Norway. But all want the executive to step aside and let parliament as a whole deal with Brexit.
May's scare tactics of "my deal or no deal" is hollow.
I get that, I mean it allows her to constantly just swat the question away, it is the easiest answer in the world, no tricky questions at all
She would do that anyway tbf, she always spins back to how her deal is the best deal, and the will of the people, without any real qualifiers to either.
Man, i've been out of the country for almost a year and a half and the one thing that confounds me is Corbyn, Labour and Anti semetism.
I know this has been brought up before, but as far as i'm aware criticising Isreal/Government etc isn't anti semetic, or is it?
Or have the accused been doing something far more obviously anti semetic? I've looked this up and i'm still baffled.
I've been listening to James o Brian on a daily basis to try and keep up with this stuff, and he hates Corbyn.
I've grown to dislike him for his shitty brexit stance, but what else is there?
I know this has been brought up before, but as far as i'm aware criticising Isreal/Government etc isn't anti semetic, or is it?
Or have the accused been doing something far more obviously anti semetic? I've looked this up and i'm still baffled.
I've been listening to James o Brian on a daily basis to try and keep up with this stuff, and he hates Corbyn.
I've grown to dislike him for his shitty brexit stance, but what else is there?
The International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance changed their definitions on anti-semitism to include criticism of Israel, so you're an anti-semite if you don't agree with what they're doing over there. Labour had problems with one or two people who are now under suspension and investigation, and the party got pressed to adopt that stupid definition of anti-semitism. That's what I grasped from the anti-semitism furore of late.
That seems to be where I'm at. Which makes no sense. Because why then would a bunch celebrities accuse Corbyn/Labour of anti semetism under those grounds, and why would jews want to leave the UK if he got elected?
Surely there's more to it, no?
I read somewhat that people see it as antisemitism to boycott Isreally products, in light of when they do bombing campaigns against palestinians. Like, really?
I kinda get why people get touchy if people use Zionists as a term to describe folks, because that seems to have various definitions.
I believe the two people I mentioned, one of them said that people in Israel should just move to the U.S to solve the conflict in Gaza, and one said he saw no problem with the statement, and all the Zionists went off their nut about it. That's what it has all stemmed from. Corbyn didn't seem to make much of a fuss over criticising those two people, probably because he prefers to let investigations happen before commenting, but that doesn't sate the bloodlust of nutters in the end.
For the record, scenes continue to occur in Parliament.
Bercow has been taking Points of Order, both hostile and appreciative, regarding his decision to accept an amendment on a Business Motion for nearly an hour now.
This is one of the most constitutionally significant days in recent British political history.
Bercow has been taking Points of Order, both hostile and appreciative, regarding his decision to accept an amendment on a Business Motion for nearly an hour now.
This is one of the most constitutionally significant days in recent British political history.
well he did nothing when May pulled the meaningful vote the first time, so this seems more of the same 'interpreting things however you see fit' - just this time it doesn't suit the Tories.
For the antisemitism discussion, we have the UK Politics thread: https://www.resetera.com/threads/uk...e-government-no-coalition-of-chaos-part-2.572
Last time it got started in here the thread was badly derailed.
Last time it got started in here the thread was badly derailed.
This is a lie. It is not one or two people, there are thousands of cases, and it's far worse than just criticising the Israeli government.
I won't go into it yet again in here but painting it as being a couple of bad apples is just untrue, it's institutional and stems from the leadership.
If there's a majority to vote for the amendment, there's a majority to keep him in post.
Is there an article you'd recommend I read? I'm genuinely trying to get a better understand.
I'll refrain from any further mentions as I don't wanna derail the thread, my apologies!
It's very hard to keep up with because there are new incidents every month.
You could start with the Howard Jacobson article from April to get to grips with what British Jews actually feel about the issue.
The major flashpoints around Corbyn involve his appearances on Press TV and muttering antisemitic tropes, praising an antisemitic mural, laying a wreath on the grave of the mastermind behind the Munich attacks and a list of other incidents involving Holocaust deniers and general antisemitism that is far too long for me to link up at work.
Most people here think it's a conspiracy but it absolutely isn't. The leaders office is doing absolutely everything it can to protect blatant antisemites. They'll tell you it's because he cares for Palestinians, but then why is he taking Assad's money? He thinks a Jewish conspiracy is responsible for most of the world's ills and the criticism he receives. Last month Thornberry said he failed to deal with it because he was 'upset'.
The long and short of it is that Corbyn brought in an influx of people from notoriously antisemitic parties and has been trying to protect that voting bloc in the membership ever since.
Worth remembering at this point that Israel only exists because of Labour and Clement Atlee.
Oooooh, one of the Tories went after Bercow's wife.
Mistake. That's the end of the Points of Order.
Mistake. That's the end of the Points of Order.
That was a funny response. Bercow was asked about the anti-Brexit sticker in his car. Bercow responded by saying it was his wife's car and he hopes the MP doesn't think that his wife is his chattel or property.
Cheers, I appreciate that. I'm gonna reply to your post in the other thread. https://www.resetera.com/threads/uk...ment-no-coalition-of-chaos-part-2.572/page-49
The debate between entirely myself and the rest of the Discord about this centres on the fact that, had the government lost some of the votes it recently lost without the FTPA in play, normal procedure would have been to trigger a GE, and that the FTPA allows for a government which can't do anything useful to not face any actual constitutional hurdles in continuing, as long as Parliament wills it.
My view is that the FTPA blocks a minority government declaring every last thing it wants to do as confidence, in order to spook its own backers both inside and outside the party into doing what the PM wants. This means, like in this instance, May has very little power to actually force MPs to back her deal. MPs, who are more directly responsible to their constituents than the government is to the people, are empowered, and the government is disempowered to bully through unpopular things based on "well, the alternative is an election!"
The view of several on the Discord is twofold: that the FTPA can cause and persist parliamentary deadlock, as it removes certain constitutional election triggers, and that the FTPA is responsible for artificially extending the life of this government.
Neither of these points are outright invalid, but they miss the wood for the trees.
Before the FTPA, two things mattered for if an election happened:
1. Does the PM have the support of the Commons?
2. Does the PM want a general election?
2 has been changed to requiring a supermajority vote, de-facto meaning the PM and the LOTO agree that there should be a GE. 1 (confidence), both before and after FTPA, is extremely important. The difference in practice thus comes down to what right the executive has to abuse confidence conventions to do what they like. We shouldn't mistake the wall of conventions that preceded the FTPA with law. The PM was a stupidly powerful position prior to its enactment. The reason this government persists is because it has confidence. The reason a government could persist in the case of parliamentary deadlock is because it had confidence. All the FTPA does is define what confidence is, and how else a PM might seek a GE if confidence isn't a concern.
This is all wonkery and others disagree, but that's my view.
So... vote time. Fingers crossed.
BBC also saying there are rumours of a move against the speaker. Can't see that coming off really as I reckon he's still got solid cross party support.
BBC also saying there are rumours of a move against the speaker. Can't see that coming off really as I reckon he's still got solid cross party support.
Great news. Would have really taken the wind out of the sails of the rebels if it had failed.
I mean, If Brexit absolutely, positively HAS to happen and we really super-duper baggsies have to leave with no returns, at least we're hopefully seeing the liklihood of No Deal being eroded away.
Take that, May.
Next week is going to be epic. Deal voted down, 3 days to do something about it.
May must hand the keys to parliament at that point.
After that? Expect a series of votes for an alternative.
The "Common Market 2.0" idea (Norway etc). Not a high chance of passing but maybe?
No Deal at all. Not a hope.
May deal with tweaks. Non starter but government may try this one.
After the votes, it'll be down to Referendum 2 or an election. Still 50/50 on either at that point.
This definitely feels like it's going into an extension and election now. What plan do they think she's going to cobble together in three days that would satisfy anyone.
You really need to stop the pessimism/May government supporting!
She's done. She won't win the vote next week either.
The argument is that when she was facing defeat last month she should've been putting the contingency in place as if she lost.
After all, more than 21 days has passed since the non vote. Agree with the rest though and she doesn't need 3 minutes to let parliament argue it out instead of trying to force things through without a majority.
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