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BREXIT |OT| ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Feb 19, 2018
861
London
Seriously have taken a dislike to Corbyn over brexit. For someone who claims to want to do what's best for the collective his only concern right now is himself.
It's become abundantly clear that he's as dishonest as any other politician. What happened to empowering the membership? Giving them a say in policy? Turns out that's only when they agree with him. If they don't, it's sabotage and prevarication without outright rejecting to try and avoid the backlash. Absolutely despicable.
 
Oct 28, 2017
3,411
https://news.sky.com/story/david-da...brexit-might-not-be-such-a-bad-thing-11634361

A 20% fall in the value of the pound in the event of a no-deal Brexit "might not be such a bad thing", David Davis has claimed.

The former Brexit secretary called on the government to deliver a "pro-business, pro-trade, pro-environment" exit from the EU, suggesting Chancellor Philip Hammond could cut taxes and increasing spending in a special no-deal spring budget.

Referring to predictions that sterling could plummet if Britain leaves at the end of March without an agreement with the EU in place, Mr Davis said: "Analysts predict that in the event of no deal, sterling could fall by over 20%. Is this such a bad thing?
"Our goods will become 20% more competitive on the global market and our EU competitors' goods would be less competitive."

Another idiot shares his nonsense.

Seems to ignore that small little nugget that industry requires good to be imported and weak pound makes that a lot more costly.
 
Dec 2, 2017
1,985
Immensely frustrating the Prime Minister is still refusing to budge on any red lines, but it's clear any of these "talks" were in bad faith just to kick the can down the road. She either wants the other parties to have their fingerprints on No Deal too, or to be the canary down the mineshaft on a People's Vote. There's temptation to call it a politically smart play, but honestly it's more of a suicide pact.

Looking like do or die time for Corbyn now.
 
Oct 28, 2017
3,411
Immensely frustrating the Prime Minister is still refusing to budge on any red lines, but it's clear any of these "talks" were in bad faith just to kick the can down the road. She either wants the other parties to have their fingerprints on No Deal too, or to be the canary down the mineshaft on a People's Vote. There's temptation to call it a politically smart play, but honestly it's more of a suicide pact.

Looking like do or die time for Corbyn now.
Corbyn may not like it but he has to get behind a people's vote. He isn't getting an election so he needs to just do what party policy is.
 
Feb 1, 2019
39
Tusk was right. There is simply no banner or leader for the remain side to gather under because both main parties are facilitating leave. And even though what Major and Blair say is correct, they are simply harming the remain side than helping due to who they are, especially Blair (and Alistair Campbell!). The Lib Dems don't have the ability to be that banner either due to the coalition and also Cable not being somebody that rouses any kind of push back.

The only person that has done anything remotely good for remain is Caroline Lucas. Actually showing that she is listening to why people voted leave and pushing for reform of ourselves but then she is a single MP of a party that has no hope in FPTP so again it's like a dead end.

Even a new party would seriously struggle because our media is so right sided that the media exposure wouldn't be enough.

I just cannot see a way out now.
 
Oct 27, 2017
877
Corbyn may not like it but he has to get behind a people's vote. He isn't getting an election so he needs to just do what party policy is.
I think the prospect of leaving the EU, but being able to lay all the blame the Tories, then becoming PM in an environment where he can rebuild the country according to his socialist principles, is too appetising a prize. Especially when the alternative is likely to be a country run by the hard Brexiteer disaster capitalists of the Conservatives, who would also very much like to be the ones in charge of crafting replacement legislation to suit their own ends.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,004
London
It's become abundantly clear that he's as dishonest as any other politician. What happened to empowering the membership? Giving them a say in policy? Turns out that's only when they agree with him. If they don't, it's sabotage and prevarication without outright rejecting to try and avoid the backlash. Absolutely despicable.
If the story is true and not spin to create some distance for Starmer then it's not good, i don't think MPs in the party who were happy with the older new Labour top down system have much room to talk about accountability to be honest.

But I wish he would accept reality and move on to the next stage as agreed. Even if he gets a disastrous tory brexit he won't get in to do anything about it.
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,561
If the economy goes to pot he can't do those things, well I presume that would be the case with less money to spend. It would just make it iron clad that Labour would bankrupt the nation in voters mind so he wouldn't get in anyway.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,455
With each week that has passed since November I have become more convinced that there will be no deal. I honestly can't envisage anything else, except perhaps a small extension for a GE which will probably result in another hung parliament anyway
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,547
If the economy goes to pot he can't do those things, well I presume that would be the case with less money to spend. It would just make it iron clad that Labour would bankrupt the nation in voters mind so he wouldn't get in anyway.
The issue is that he does believe that the things won't be that bad even in case of no deal. Or he thinks that he can get away with it by blaming everything on the Tories and that remains to be seen how well it works.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,602
rebuild the country according to his socialist principles, is too appetising a prize.
He is going to inherit a house fire. He can't really get moving on his policies until after he puts out the fire.

The issue is that he does believe that the things won't be that bad even in case of no deal. Or he thinks that he can get away with it by blaming everything on the Tories and that remains to be seen how well it works.
Unless he can make it rain money, he can't actually do anything. Blaming Tories doesn't help him achieve his goal, unless you infer the most cynical of motives.
 
Oct 27, 2017
877
He is going to inherit a house fire. He can't really get moving on his policies until after he puts out the fire.
I can't see him re-establishing the old neoliberal order before trying to tear it down. But I guess it all comes back to the dichotomy of his support: the old leftists who want things to go back to how they were before Thatcher messed everything up, and the new breed of socially-conscious, educated and relatively affluent, who do quite well out of the status quo, and don't want to see the baby being thrown out with the bathwater. Just as with Brexit, no matter what he does, he's going to upset one set of supporters.
 

plagiarize

Untethered
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
6,910
Cape Cod, MA
I wish Corbyn would wake up and realise that he's not going to be PM this year or next year no matter what happens.

Come out against Brexit. Admit that it's going to piss off some of their voters, but hell, it's the right position. It's best for the country. Again, they aren't getting in power now or next year so what does it matter? In a few short years, having been against this *now* will likely be a very advantageous position.

Heck, even vote for the WA to stave off no deal, and make sure to 100% blame the Tories for forcing the impossible choice on them.

Continuing to support Brexit at this point just looks like terrible political strategy to me, and it's so transparently putting your own interests before the country, because Brexit is so blatantly not in the best interest of the country.

If he did that, maybe he'll be PM in four years, or whenever.
 
Dec 2, 2017
1,985
Corbyn may not like it but he has to get behind a people's vote. He isn't getting an election so he needs to just do what party policy is.
Even despite his personal position, I don't think Corbyn anticipated things getting this bad. I'm particularly surprised that May won't back down on her red lines despite the defeats and humiliations, and No Deal lumbering towards us at an increasing pace. We all may have underestimated how far the Conservative party would go to keep itself together, even if it means chucking the country off a cliff.

And so the ball drops into Corbyn's court to do something. Anything to break the logjam, but all options carry risks to backfire spectacularly, so I can understand some amount of dithering. A decision needs to be made very, very soon, however.

Make no mistake, the current situation is absolutely the fault of May and the Conservative party. With the EU making positive noises towards Labour's proposals, and the honest view that reversing Brexit is likely impossible -


- a path to a deal that may pass in Parliament and with the EU27 has opened, but May is the blockade. Again, because she's putting the Conservative party first.
 
Oct 28, 2017
3,411
I wish Corbyn would wake up and realise that he's not going to be PM this year or next year no matter what happens.

Come out against Brexit. Admit that it's going to piss off some of their voters, but hell, it's the right position. It's best for the country. Again, they aren't getting in power now or next year so what does it matter? In a few short years, having been against this *now* will likely be a very advantageous position.

Heck, even vote for the WA to stave off no deal, and make sure to 100% blame the Tories for forcing the impossible choice on them.

Continuing to support Brexit at this point just looks like terrible political strategy to me, and it's so transparently putting your own interests before the country, because Brexit is so blatantly not in the best interest of the country.

If he did that, maybe he'll be PM in four years, or whenever.
This is where I see him going down the wrong route. I think his reading the wants of the labour party membership all wrong. The members don't need an election right now, they want to see some leadership and viable opposition when it comes to brexit.

Corbyn is so fixated on trying to keep constituencies that voted leave onside when it comes to a general election that disaster of brexit doesn't really matter.

The UK crashing out of the EU isn't on him but his crazy if he thinks people will absolve him completly.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,436
What annoys me is that even after all this shit, even if a No Deal happens.

The tories won't get much blame. The Tory shitrags will continue to not Blame the party, Tory loyalist voters will continue to try and find some way to not blame the Tories, etc.

And of course Labour's awfulness will result in the Tories still getting a Minority Government even in the aftermaths of a no deal.

FUCK UK politics.
 
Oct 28, 2017
3,411
Even despite his personal position, I don't think Corbyn anticipated things getting this bad. I'm particularly surprised that May won't back down on her red lines despite the defeats and humiliations, and No Deal lumbering towards us at an increasing pace. We all may have underestimated how far the Conservative party would go to keep itself together, even if it means chucking the country off a cliff.

And so the ball drops into Corbyn's court to do something. Anything to break the logjam, but all options carry risks to backfire spectacularly, so I can understand some amount of dithering. A decision needs to be made very, very soon, however.

Make no mistake, the current situation is absolutely the fault of May and the Conservative party. With the EU making positive noises towards Labour's proposals, and the honest view that reversing Brexit is likely impossible -


- a path to a deal that may pass in Parliament and with the EU27 has opened, but May is the blockade. Again, because she's putting the Conservative party first.
True May isn't playing ball but that's why I think he should say 'I've tried to work with this government but they are too stubborn and it's now time for the people to decide what next'.

That doesn't guarantee another referendum but it at least shows a recognition of those who want one.
 
Nov 20, 2017
793
Jeremy Corbyn and Seamus Milne are hardcore brexiters. They always have been. Instead of doing the right thing and kicking them out, we have had 3 years of people making excuses, abusing anyone who pointed out the obvious and even now we still have people in here waiting for him to come out in favour of the EU. He doesn't want a relationship with the EU. All of this, all along, has been a wrecking game and you were all told from the beginning.
 

Deleted member 50969

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Dec 17, 2018
892
I know some may not care about this, but this uncertainty has been murder for anyone (me and others) who want to start a small business and do some investing while holding down a steady job.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,455
I know some may not care about this, but this uncertainty has been murder for anyone (me and others) who want to start a small business and do some investing while holding down a steady job.
I've also had my life in a holding pattern for the last year or so. While it's not a business, the expense of starting a family just seems impossible right now
 

Deleted member 50969

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Dec 17, 2018
892
I've also had my life in a holding pattern for the last year or so. While it's not a business, the expense of starting a family just seems impossible right now
The expenses of starting a family can be rough and Brexit has made it even rougher. My hearts goes out to you and your partner, can your parents help you out?
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,455
The expenses of starting a family can be rough and Brexit has made it even rougher. My hearts goes out to you and your partner, can your parents help you out?
Unfortunately both our parents are in their 70s and really not physically able to help out there, and it would cost us more than my wife makes in a month to pay for it. I was relying on a promotion in order to make things work for the first few years but my employer has been in full cost-cutting mode for the last year due to Brexit. Hopefully we can get some certainty in 2019 so I can either move up or try for a new job elsewhere.

Can't even get childcare vouchers any more because the Tories killed the scheme
 

Deleted member 50969

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Dec 17, 2018
892
Unfortunately both our parents are in their 70s and really not physically able to help out there, and it would cost us more than my wife makes in a month to pay for it. I was relying on a promotion in order to make things work for the first few years but my employer has been in full cost-cutting mode for the last year due to Brexit. Hopefully we can get some certainty in 2019 so I can either move up or try for a new job elsewhere.

Can't even get childcare vouchers any more because the Tories killed the scheme
Your situation sounds and probably is tough, I salute you for getting out of bed every day.

A thinktank said in 2017 that you would need a household income of 40,800 to sustain a family of four, up 10,800k from a survey Nov 2012.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,455
Would you be eligible for the tax-free childcare scheme?

Tax Free Childcare

We used to be on vouchers and switched over to this last year. It actually works out a little better for us that the vouchers.
Yes, that's worth adding to my calculations! I don't think it would make enough difference yet but it would certainly help.

Your situation sounds and probably is tough, I salute you for getting out of bed every day.

A thinktank said in 2017 that you would need a household income of 40,800 to sustain a family of four, up 10,800k from a survey Nov 2012.
Well, I can put food on the table and have a mortgage so I'm doing better than most. I'd say I don't understand how most people manage but I do - debt. It just pisses me off that the party of "family values" has made it so hard for my generation.
 
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...theresa-may-deal-commons-letter-a8773671.html

Now it has been alleged that Mr Corbyn's office agreed the letter should set out clear support for the referendum, if Ms May turned down his offer - only to omit the sentence at the last minute.
Such a shame that the 2nd largest party has gone all in on Brexit, I’m sure this is going to blow up in Labours face come the next GE.

Corbyn has dropped all morals in his bid to become the next PM even if he is the PM of ashes.
 

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Dec 17, 2018
892
Well, I can put food on the table and have a mortgage so I'm doing better than most. I'd say I don't understand how most people manage but I do - debt. It just pisses me off that the party of "family values" has made it so hard for my generation.
Every year, the white picket fence dream is closed off by door after door. The basics our boomer relatives had will never be available to us without having multiple avenues of money coming in.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,037
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...theresa-may-deal-commons-letter-a8773671.html



Such a shame that the 2nd largest party has gone all in on Brexit, I’m sure this is going to blow up in Labours face come the next GE.

Corbyn has dropped all morals in his bid to become the next PM even if he is the PM of ashes.
He's got even less chance of being PM after brexit than he does right now, not sure why anyone thinks either party is going to survive if it goes wrong.

Anyway, I don't know if the story is true or not (it probably is) but it's well timed to put pressure on whatever the reason.
 
He's got even less chance of being PM after brexit than he does right now, not sure why anyone thinks either party is going to survive if it goes wrong.

Anyway, I don't know if the story is true or not (it probably is) but it's well timed to put pressure on whatever the reason.
Yeh I agree the fracture in the Tories over Europe is well known but they have managed to stick together, in Labour though it's brand new and has really divided the party.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,004
London
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...theresa-may-deal-commons-letter-a8773671.html



Such a shame that the 2nd largest party has gone all in on Brexit, I’m sure this is going to blow up in Labours face come the next GE.

Corbyn has dropped all morals in his bid to become the next PM even if he is the PM of ashes.
I still find this story a bit iffy even beyond the usual cast of Corbynphobes doing the talking, Starmer should quit over something like that being done to him, nobody would blame him and there would be no point being the Brexit secretary if you're being shafted like that.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,566
I'm not even sure why the letter matters at this point when May's already rejected it, it's not like a referendum that she doesn't really want was going to suddenly make her say yes.

As much as a referendum would be the one way out for remain, I still just don't see it happening regardless of whether Corbyn supports it or not.
Yeh I agree the fracture in the Tories over Europe is well known but they have managed to stick together, in Labour though it's brand new and has really divided the party.
I mean I don't think it's that new in Labour either, really, it's not like Corbyn only just joined. It's just the Tories are far far better at putting the party before everything else, even if they don't agree with everything the leader is doing, it's more preferable for them to still be in power than another party.
 

kadotsu

Banned
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,009
I don't know. I think that Corbyn's position has actually gotten better since last December, which was the low point. Most of the impossible demands have been dropped or being pushed way to the back. Now Labour's proposal looks actually workable and it mitigates most of the Brexit damage.

I personally would prefer a second referendum and Labour to push for it but I need to acknowledge that Labour is the opposition right now. In a way bundling up a second ref with the proposal would have given the Tories a way to dismiss it as a bundle. I don't think that Corbyn excluded it because of that, though, he wants a soft Brexit.

The big problem remains the government. Not even the most firebrand opposition could change the current trajectory. You would have either united the ERG behind May or got enough Tory rebels for May's plan.
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,561
It worrying that nobody in power seems to give a shit or they are putting on a brace face hoping magic happens.

This whole thing is self inflicted and reckless but could be stopped if anyone had the balls to tell the truth. For the good of the nation my arse.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,983
It worrying that nobody in power seems to give a shit or they are putting on a brace face hoping magic happens.

This whole thing is self inflicted and reckless but could be stopped if anyone had the balls to tell the truth. For the good of the nation my arse.
Peston compared it to the Lehman Brothers collapse, where everyone knew how bad it was going to be, but no one stopped it due to mistaken beliefs.

So that's great.
 

plagiarize

Untethered
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
6,910
Cape Cod, MA
Because this is the *easiest* thing for the UK to unilaterally do, it's going to become more and more tempting as an option over the next... uh... six weeks. I'm still hoping that not enough people fall into the trap of convincing themselves it won't be too bad, but then I look at the UK media and I panic all over again.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,853
Oh look "Save her party... and herself". Jeez, who cares about the fucking party when a no deal Brexit would fucking murder the country (and probably get you kicked off and poison the well of the party for longer than a "selling to Europe" move).

Edit: and all of this could have been easily not been a major issue if all parties in the UK had sat down before calling Article 50 to more or less put some common points. But of course, Tories cant have negotiations with other parties.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,024
May has more than ever bought into the Smith-Lewis argument that party unity has to come first
And there lies the problem. No matter that the country needs to stockpile body bags, that MPs have been briefed about a rise in suicides, that the Cabinet has had arguments about whether to prioritise medicine or food - but Party Unity has to come first.
 
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